New Dj interview at LegendaryRockInterviews.com (Sep 2014)

[JAEBALL]

I understand what you are saying. I think it follows a reasonable train of thought. You're right, things definitely could have gone differently. So let's see here.

I guess as far as missing the opportunity for Robin and Brain to be in the fold, I agree that while their participation may have been better for the band, I also think that Axl did not plan on them leaving. From what I gathered while reading "Whispers", it was clear from the very beginning that CD was going to take a very long time to make. That's why Moby backed out of the project. I think Axl was trying to make a record outside of time in a way. The best way I can describe this is when you have something you think is really important to say to someone that you are fighting with. Once you say it, it is said. There is no way to undo it. So I think Axl didn't want to be pressured into making an album he couldn't undo.

 I am not sure, but I think if Axl could go back and release the illusions in a different manner, he might change some things. I don't know, maybe "My World" wouldn't be on there. Maybe he could have finished Just Another Sunday instead (such a great song!). I think that the quality of GNR music from Appetite to Lies is consistently very good. I basically love every song on those two albums. With the Illusions there were many great songs and the sound of GNR underwent a great evolution, but at the same time there came into existence some songs that for me did not live up to the quality of their previous releases. Maybe Axl wanted to make sure that CD was an album that was created as a conscious effort over time, a very intentional album. It seems like that to me considering how they explored at least a hundred different possibilities for nearly every part of every song.

When it comes to the band's inactivity in terms of concerts, I don't know why things where that way but I am sure there were reasons for it. Maybe Axl just wanted to concentrate on CD. After all, that's what people will mostly remember him for once he is dead: his recorded music. Maybe he was just not feeling up to it. I heard him mention in "Whispers" that he was unhappy and that his inner world needed to be in a better place in order for him to achieve what he was aiming for. I can't really say because I wasn't there, but every action is a response which stems from a stimulus therefore whatever happened had to happen exactly the way it did.

As for Axl being at his best then, I'm sure that he is still being the best he can. Guns n Roses is his life's work. If he is not performing as good now as he was then, I do not know if that is something that he would have foreseen. Besides, his vocals always seem to change and go through trends. It seems to me that near the end of a trend is when he starts to sound his best and near the beginning of the trend is when he starts to sound maybe a little weaker. I don't know what causes his vocals to change or whether I am right about them going through trends, but I'm sure he knows what's going on with his voice better than I do and plans everything accordingly.

Finally, concerning your last point, I admire the fact that Axl used his own money to get CD to where he wanted it to be (if I am correct and this is what happened).

Anyway, it's always good discussing things with you. You think very critically about many details of GNR. That really takes a lot of dedication!

While of course its not this simple... this was pretty much the exact quote... "Chinese Democracy was released when Axl was ready to release it "  - Del James

[D-GenerationX]

Finally, concerning your last point, I admire the fact that Axl used his own money to get CD to where he wanted it to be (if I am correct and this is what happened).

I'd agree in the abstract, but not sure that stands up given the leaks we heard.

For example, the vocal tracks on 'Catcher' and 'I.R.S.' were done in 1998 or 1999.  No matter how many times the song was tweaked or altered, that vocal track never changed.  I happen to like the few flourishes that Ron added to 'I.R.S.', but did that require another 2 years delay and more momentum lost?

And look at all the leaks through that prism.  Given the insane delay, I, and others I suspect, thought that the finished products would be radically different.  But in actuality, they really weren't.  The leaks we had years prior pretty much wound up being the finished products.

Look, the easy answer to any of this is that Axl is the artist, I can go fuck myself, etc.  Ultimately, true.  But this is not me saying that these things I'm suggesting are the right way and his was wrong.  This is more of a devil's advocate sort of position.  I think they are fair questions though.  And when people jump right in with the usual talking points about not being owed anything, go follow some other band, you asshole...I see those as non-answers to avoid having to address any of what we are talking about.

[jarmo]

If you hadn't listened to, or hadn't had the chance to listen to, the leaks, you'd have nothing to compare to other than live versions.

The whole "not much changed" and/or "I prefer the leak" opinions would've been non-existent. Yet another reason why shit like that ruins things for the artists.




/jarmo

[GNR2014]

For example, the vocal tracks on 'Catcher' and 'I.R.S.' were done in 1998 or 1999.  No matter how many times the song was tweaked or altered, that vocal track never changed.  I happen to like the few flourishes that Ron added to 'I.R.S.', but did that require another 2 years delay and more momentum lost?

And look at all the leaks through that prism.  Given the insane delay, I, and others I suspect, thought that the finished products would be radically different.  But in actuality, they really weren't.  The leaks we had years prior pretty much wound up being the finished products.

Even the live versions of Chinese, Street of Dreams, Riad, and Madagascar that we heard in 2001 sounded pretty much the same as they did on the album... 7 years later!

[JAEBALL]

If you hadn't listened to, or hadn't had the chance to listen to, the leaks, you'd have nothing to compare to other than live versions.

The whole "not much changed" and/or "I prefer the leak" opinions would've been non-existent. Yet another reason why shit like that ruins things for the artists.




/jarmo

I just think the point is... it took a lot of years for it to be released when there was evidence that the song was just about ready to go almost a decade earlier

Nothing to do with the damage of a leak can cause for an artist

[JAEBALL]

as awesome of a read Chinese Whispers is...

the real reasons why it took so long will never be known

[D-GenerationX]

If you hadn't listened to, or hadn't had the chance to listen to, the leaks, you'd have nothing to compare to other than live versions.

The whole "not much changed" and/or "I prefer the leak" opinions would've been non-existent. Yet another reason why shit like that ruins things for the artists. 

And that's swell, but you can't unring that bell.  The fact is I did hear them.  As did 90% or more of the fanbase.

This would be one of those non-answers I was talking about.  You see nobility in not listening to the leaks, and good for you.  No one asked or cares.  But they were out there and we heard them.  And when compared with the finished products, not a hell of a lot of difference.

[D-GenerationX]

And for the record, the only leak I prefer is 'Prostitute' because the leak didn't have the goofy glug glug water sound effects or that crunchy sound underneath the mix.

Its not that I didn't like the finished products, as I said.  Its more a sense of, wow, 2 more years plus for some sound effects and a few riffs pasted over top of finished products?

[ice cream sand pig]

Finally, concerning your last point, I admire the fact that Axl used his own money to get CD to where he wanted it to be (if I am correct and this is what happened).

I'd agree in the abstract, but not sure that stands up given the leaks we heard.

For example, the vocal tracks on 'Catcher' and 'I.R.S.' were done in 1998 or 1999.  No matter how many times the song was tweaked or altered, that vocal track never changed.  I happen to like the few flourishes that Ron added to 'I.R.S.', but did that require another 2 years delay and more momentum lost?

And look at all the leaks through that prism.  Given the insane delay, I, and others I suspect, thought that the finished products would be radically different.  But in actuality, they really weren't.  The leaks we had years prior pretty much wound up being the finished products.

Look, the easy answer to any of this is that Axl is the artist, I can go fuck myself, etc.  Ultimately, true.  But this is not me saying that these things I'm suggesting are the right way and his was wrong.  This is more of a devil's advocate sort of position.  I think they are fair questions though.  And when people jump right in with the usual talking points about not being owed anything, go follow some other band, you asshole...I see those as non-answers to avoid having to address any of what we are talking about.

Yes, I don't plan on answering you in that way that you dislike. Or if I somehow did, I apologize for that. Ultimately there could have been many reasons for the delay. If my understanding is correct, CD utilizes a lot of different kinds of technology. Often times music that uses technology can sound dated after a certain amount of time passes. One can look back to the eighties and see that pretty easily. So even if the record was mostly done, maybe Axl wanted to hold on to it for a long time and see if it was something he would still be happy with over time. After all, why rush? When all is said and done, the recorded albums are what will be around forever. Perhaps Axl saw releasing a record that would stand the test of time as more important than meeting deadlines or lining the release of the album up with certain opportunities.

And while the leaks may not be a whole lot different than the finished products, maybe Axl wanted to experiment with the songs more and make sure they were done the best way they could have been done. It seems to me that, as I said before, Axl's aim was to consciously make an album. Outside of time, everything done intentionally, without regret, without being influenced by the pressures of the business world and negative states of mind. I absolutely agree with this approach 100%. Axl waited till he knew he would be completely happy with CD and then released it. I commend him for that. At this point in his career I feel to him its not about making money or making the charts. It's about creating something that will last forever that he can be proud of and continue to be proud of as time goes on.

[D-GenerationX]

Yes, I don't plan on answering you in that way that you dislike. Or if I somehow did, I apologize for that.

Oh no, not at all.  I didn't get that vibe at all.  No worries.

[jarmo]

If you hadn't listened to, or hadn't had the chance to listen to, the leaks, you'd have nothing to compare to other than live versions.

The whole "not much changed" and/or "I prefer the leak" opinions would've been non-existent. Yet another reason why shit like that ruins things for the artists. 

And that's swell, but you can't unring that bell.  The fact is I did hear them.  As did 90% or more of the fanbase.

This would be one of those non-answers I was talking about.  You see nobility in not listening to the leaks, and good for you.  No one asked or cares.  But they were out there and we heard them.  And when compared with the finished products, not a hell of a lot of difference.

So let me get this straight, you're allowed to "play the Devil's advocate" as much as you wish, but if somebody else dares to, it's not allowed?
Your rules for playing seem somewhat hypocritical.

I pointed out one aspect of the damage leaks have. Did you address this as being wrong? No, not at all. Did you try to post some condescending shit about nobody caring? Yes.




/jarmo

[ice cream sand pig]

I must say DX, in my opinion you are one hell of a fan. I appreciate that you are always willing to respond and are also very timely about it. You must think about GNR a lot. That means they are very important to you. And I can see why you play the devil's advocate a lot of the time. After all, it generates discussion, and discussion is ultimately the point of a message board.

You would probably make a really good prosecutor in court! Ever consider that line of work?

[LongGoneDay]

Finally, concerning your last point, I admire the fact that Axl used his own money to get CD to where he wanted it to be (if I am correct and this is what happened).

I'd agree in the abstract, but not sure that stands up given the leaks we heard.

For example, the vocal tracks on 'Catcher' and 'I.R.S.' were done in 1998 or 1999.  No matter how many times the song was tweaked or altered, that vocal track never changed.  I happen to like the few flourishes that Ron added to 'I.R.S.', but did that require another 2 years delay and more momentum lost?

And look at all the leaks through that prism.  Given the insane delay, I, and others I suspect, thought that the finished products would be radically different.  But in actuality, they really weren't.  The leaks we had years prior pretty much wound up being the finished products.

Look, the easy answer to any of this is that Axl is the artist, I can go fuck myself, etc.  Ultimately, true.  But this is not me saying that these things I'm suggesting are the right way and his was wrong.  This is more of a devil's advocate sort of position.  I think they are fair questions though.  And when people jump right in with the usual talking points about not being owed anything, go follow some other band, you asshole...I see those as non-answers to avoid having to address any of what we are talking about.

Yes, I don't plan on answering you in that way that you dislike. Or if I somehow did, I apologize for that. Ultimately there could have been many reasons for the delay. If my understanding is correct, CD utilizes a lot of different kinds of technology. Often times music that uses technology can sound dated after a certain amount of time passes. One can look back to the eighties and see that pretty easily. So even if the record was mostly done, maybe Axl wanted to hold on to it for a long time and see if it was something he would still be happy with over time. After all, why rush? When all is said and done, the recorded albums are what will be around forever. Perhaps Axl saw releasing a record that would stand the test of time as more important than meeting deadlines or lining the release of the album up with certain opportunities.

And while the leaks may not be a whole lot different than the finished products, maybe Axl wanted to experiment with the songs more and make sure they were done the best way they could have been done. It seems to me that, as I said before, Axl's aim was to consciously make an album. Outside of time, everything done intentionally, without regret, without being influenced by the pressures of the business world and negative states of mind. I absolutely agree with this approach 100%. Axl waited till he knew he would be completely happy with CD and then released it. I commend him for that. At this point in his career I feel to him its not about making money or making the charts. It's about creating something that will last forever that he can be proud of and continue to be proud of as time goes on.

I think Axl was maybe waiting for inspiration that never reared it?s head.
In no way am I comparing myself to Axl, but as an artist by trade myself, I could relate if that were the case.

Axl has said he suffered from writer?s block, and countless ex-members, and maybe some current have spoken about a lot of music with no lyrics.
Lyrically the songs didn?t evolve much, if at all from the initial demos. I myself thought the lyrics in the demos may have been placeholders, because in my opinion, they weren?t near the caliber of his previous work.

Artists are typically their own worst critics, and it?s difficult to know when something is done.
In a lot of cases, they are never 100% satisfied with their own work, and could probably nit pick it for eternity given the opportunity.
Axl didn?t appear to have a deadline, not one he took seriously anyway. I also don?t believe his current bandmates had/have the clout to say when something is done.

What?s interesting to me though is that it doesn?t appear Axl toyed around with his area of expertise, his own lyrics over the years.
Instead it?s the music that seems to have been altered, albeit not that much.

All speculation of course, as that is really all we can do as GN?R fans today, but maybe Axl wasn?t inspired by the music he was hearing.
We know he wasn?t into Slash, Matt and Gilby?s. When I heard the rumors back in the day, or maybe it was even Axl himself that said it, that there were 70+ songs in the can, I thought holy shit, he?s overflowing with inspiration and ideas. All this time later and it seems maybe the opposite is true. Maybe there was 70+ songs in various forms of completion, but how impressed could Axl have been with the songs if he wasn?t writing lyrics to them? From reading through Chinese Whispers, it doesn?t seem that even Axl knew what his ?vision? was. Since he was sort of strong armed into releasing Chinese Democracy, I wonder if he?d say that it is truly representative of his overall vision, and that he succeeded in capturing it on record.

[ice cream sand pig]

Also, I agree with you Jarmo. The leaks were a very sad thing to have happened. I thought they were great at the time but I didn't realize how they affected the album in the long run.

[ice cream sand pig]

Good point Long Gone Day (I mistook you for Jaeball at first), although I'm not sure I agree. I think the lyrics on CD are Axl's best work as a lyricist. I am most impressed with the lines that can be heard in multiple ways. I'm not sure if this was done intentionally or not but: "Up and away is what I gotta do", "a better way is what I gotta do" is the first example of this that comes to my mind.

Also, didn't he write the lyrics for Madagascar almost right away? I think he was inspired by the music but it was hard for him to fit himself in there among everything that was going on musically in the album.

[LongGoneDay]

Good point Long Gone Day (I mistook you for Jaeball at first), although I'm not sure I agree. I think the lyrics on CD are Axl's best work as a lyricist. I am most impressed with the lines that can be heard in multiple ways. I'm not sure if this was done intentionally or not but: "Up and away is what I gotta do", "a better way is what I gotta do" is the first example of this that comes to my mind.

Also, didn't he write the lyrics for Madagascar almost right away? I think he was inspired by the music but it was hard for him to fit himself in there among everything that was going on musically in the album.

Don?t get me wrong, what I consider to be bad lyrics by Axl?s standards, I still hold in higher regard than many lyricists of today.
You could be right about Madagascar.
I remember being pretty excited upon hearing it for the first time after the drought of original Axl material , but it sounds dated, and (far) over the top for my tastes now.
Axl?s voice sounds strong on that track if I remember correctly, but the overuse, ill advised choices (in my opinion) of samples used, and the lack of anything really interesting going on musically makes it tough for me to revisit.

Lyrically Chinese Democracy in general falls far short of UYI for me. Granted the bar was set high to say the least. I?m to this day blown away by lyrics to Coma, RNDTH, Locomotive etc.
Took me a long time to digest UYI, whereas I felt like I got the gist of CD after a few spins. Nothing really jumped out and surprised me down the road.
I know this is the opposite for some, and I can respect that.

I think both songs have at least one throw away line, but I?d probably consider Street of Dreams and CITR to be the strongest lyrically of CD.
Musically, CD doesn?t do a lot for me, but that didn?t come as a huge shock because I had no real expectations or emotional attachment to the players involved.
Lyrically, songs like CD, Shackler?s, TIL(though I do dig the solo), Riad, Sorry etc unfortunately aren?t interesting enough to make up for it.
That was a big surprise to me personally. Certainly hoping any possible future release speaks to me more so than CD.

[Ginger King]

as awesome of a read Chinese Whispers is...

the real reasons why it took so long will never be known

After reading through Chinese Whispers (which is an amazing compilation and whoever put that together deserves a ton of credit) anyone that thinks ?prolonged inactivity? isn?t why people left the band are intentionally ignoring history.
Josh, Robin, and Bucket all left, in part, due to the inactivity of the band?hell, Josh formed his own band during all the downtime.  The only one we don?t really know why is Brain?although some of his quotes talk about his greatest feeling is being a part of a band, so one can reasonably assume he wasn?t a fan of the patchwork approach to recording CD (and the Axl-less rehearsals). 

The real question is who's to blame for the delay (or, more appropriately) who?s more to blame.  It?s clear not one party is at fault, and Axl, the record label, and past Managers all share a hand.  Good luck trying to apportion the fault.  On the one hand, the last thing to come together were the lyrics.  On the other, the revolving door of record execs shuffled in to tinker and delay (perhaps with an eye on a reunion) only added to the confusion and frustration. 

I can?t help but think (and yes, this is my own opinion with no inside knowledge ? just so we?re all clear on that) that a part of Axl was paralyzed with fear about putting out what he felt is his masterpiece.  That the constant re-shuffling and luke warm feedback from the label really fucked with his psyche, and that if they didn?t like it, then how would anyone like it, so he must go back and re-work it again, re-record parts, etc.  The concept of CD had become mythical, so how could it ever live up to unrealistic expectations?  You can argue he was set up to fail, and with each passing year (regardless of whose fault it was) the expectations mounted.  That explains Axl?s relative obscurity after the album released. 

I really hope these same fears/expectations aren?t present this time around, and that all parties have learned from the CD process.  Axl himself said the second half of Chinese is already recorded, and that he?s going to start looking very seriously at what do to with it.  Here?s hoping that ?release it? is one of the options, and that we get some indication, one way or the other, soon.

[The Wight Gunner]

I kinda think that Appetite for Democracy, was his (Axl's) toe in the water moment. He clearly wouldn't expect (nor would get) multi millions of sales, but what he would get is the vibe that went with the release. He'd also get an indication of how the label would both act in its release, and in its marketing strategy. This was the collective groups litmus test, all sounding out each other and hopefully using this experience for all to express their own thoughts and observations  on what was delivered. One must remember that this is TB's first foray into releasing a significant peace of art in their own right and will also have their opportunities to see what they would or wouldn't do again in what probably is Gn'R's most important album in 20+ years. Get it wrong and it could be the end of the band IMHO 

[JAEBALL]

as awesome of a read Chinese Whispers is...

the real reasons why it took so long will never be known

After reading through Chinese Whispers (which is an amazing compilation and whoever put that together deserves a ton of credit) anyone that thinks ?prolonged inactivity? isn?t why people left the band are intentionally ignoring history.
Josh, Robin, and Bucket all left, in part, due to the inactivity of the band?hell, Josh formed his own band during all the downtime.  The only one we don?t really know why is Brain?although some of his quotes talk about his greatest feeling is being a part of a band, so one can reasonably assume he wasn?t a fan of the patchwork approach to recording CD (and the Axl-less rehearsals). 

The real question is who's to blame for the delay (or, more appropriately) who?s more to blame.  It?s clear not one party is at fault, and Axl, the record label, and past Managers all share a hand.  Good luck trying to apportion the fault.  On the one hand, the last thing to come together were the lyrics.  On the other, the revolving door of record execs shuffled in to tinker and delay (perhaps with an eye on a reunion) only added to the confusion and frustration. 

I can?t help but think (and yes, this is my own opinion with no inside knowledge ? just so we?re all clear on that) that a part of Axl was paralyzed with fear about putting out what he felt is his masterpiece.  That the constant re-shuffling and luke warm feedback from the label really fucked with his psyche, and that if they didn?t like it, then how would anyone like it, so he must go back and re-work it again, re-record parts, etc.  The concept of CD had become mythical, so how could it ever live up to unrealistic expectations?  You can argue he was set up to fail, and with each passing year (regardless of whose fault it was) the expectations mounted.  That explains Axl?s relative obscurity after the album released. 

I really hope these same fears/expectations aren?t present this time around, and that all parties have learned from the CD process.  Axl himself said the second half of Chinese is already recorded, and that he?s going to start looking very seriously at what do to with it.  Here?s hoping that ?release it? is one of the options, and that we get some indication, one way or the other, soon.

Great thoughts... certainly those three and Brain left because of the structure/and time it took.

As for Axl's thought process...of course we will never know, but that all seems very plausible.. he was truly under a lot of pressure to succeed with it due to the circumstances and the name, and I truly believe Del when he said it was out when Axl wanted out. Certainly there were a lot of factors that lead to the delays, but if Axl wanted out in 1999... it would have been, plain and simple.

Unfortunately the real beginning to everything was when Axl dissolved their partnership but that's whole other bag of worms...one thing leads to another..and then its 2008...

It's amazing that we are going on 6 years now, and really no closer to the second half. I'm not mad about it, just hard to grasp, and as it relates tot he original topic... I hope DJ Ashba is right, he unfortunately tho has no credibility in this discussion.

We know the songs have existed for years... so it's just waiting..with no real answers as to why

[D-GenerationX]

So let me get this straight, you're allowed to "play the Devil's advocate" as much as you wish, but if somebody else dares to, it's not allowed?
Your rules for playing seem somewhat hypocritical.

I pointed out one aspect of the damage leaks have. Did you address this as being wrong? No, not at all. Did you try to post some condescending shit about nobody caring? Yes.

Then let me straighten out for you.

The topic is that after hearing the leaks YEARS prior, it was obvious after getting the album these songs were basically ready YEARS prior.  Its hard to justify a further 2 year delay for the very minor tweaks that were done in that time frame.  And there was some good vibes and momentum in 2006 that they did not recapture in 2008, so it impossible to argue the 2 further year wait was a good thing that served the band well.

But...that's an inconvenient topic for you, because god forbid we say that out loud.  And we can't have that.  Of course not.

So, you launch into your completely unrelated "leaks are bad....mmmmkay?" speech that, seriously, we've all heard so many times, we could all type it out for you at this point.  We all know the speech, and it has nothing to do with what is being discussed.

And the only reason I tried to couch this as a devil's advocate type argument, is because that's just what it was.  It was another viewpoint.  I was hoping to avoid yet another lecture about how I don't work in the music business, so I should sit in the corner and shut up.