Goodbye Ron (???)

[TheBaconman]

Thank you. I do like being loved.  And I am a good choice so thanks haha

I will consider that there are more events in U.S. markets that could cause people to spend there money in other areas than in seeing live music/guns n roses.  I would be crazy not to say this. BUT....  The amount of events does not offset the population differnt in the two countries and can not be used as an excuse as to why people in the  United states choose not to see events

It does offset when you consider distribution.

It explains why there is a NEED to prioritize.  The different musical tastes (and preference for other types of live entertainment, like sports) is definitely "on us", as a whole.

If you want to say that, as a whole, the US musical tastes suck....I probably won't disagree.  What sells, and the acts that sell gobs of tickets around the country...not my cup of tea.

Also just because most of the Canadian pollution lives close to its major cities isn't always a plus when it comes to seeing events.  In a lot of parts of Canada unless u live in the downtown areas you are driving to these events.  Because the public fransportaion stinks.  I live about 45 mins away from the downtown area and have to drive to events    Which should be a factor in people staying home and not attending.  But it's not. We still manage to get out.   I wish we had a public fransportaion system like New York or some other U.S. city.  

Yeah, really good public transportation systems aren't as common as you think in the US. New York has a good one, Boston's is OK (when not inundated by 9 feet of snow)..but largely you'll find that the US population is driving into the city to see shows, too.  Some of us driving 2 to 3 hours to get there (me to NYC or Boston).

Some canadian cities have great public transit.  Don't get me wrong.  Mine is just not one of them

I have been to a lot of major us cities however and even the ones that don't have a good transit system.  At least they have a fab system that works.   After dark the cabs meters start at 9 bux as soon as u sit down.   60 bux is a common can ride.   Which is another determint to stay home.  Yet people don't

[JAEBALL]

If that's the case, the disparity is even larger.

7 arena shows for 35 million vs 6 arena shows for 350 million.

Pilferk, haven't you listened? They'll be back playing for the rest!
They just don't have time to do more shows on the first leg.... Nothing to do with demand... Nothing. To even suggest it is crazy! Not possible!


Only GN'R has "problems". All these other bands release new albums and do everything according to the rulebook!
Metallica not making a profit on their US festival is probably because of GN'R!




/jarmo

I agree with you on this... but all you'd have to say was that they MIGHT sell better in the US with the calssic lineup and then this discussion with DX would never happen again. 

[jarmo]

Metallica does their summer tours abroad with one offs in the US.  They've done the "Black album in full" tour and the "By Request" tour already.

For reference, this is James Hetfield talking about North America last year.
"It's pretty tough in North America." And this guy is in Metallica!

Yet we are led to believe by the so called open minded fans who have their eyes open that only GN'R has "problems". 

I agree with you on this... but all you'd have to say was that they MIGHT sell better in the US with the calssic lineup and then this discussion with DX would never happen again. 

Haha. Of course. All his worries would disappear if the nostalgia cash grab happened. I used the N and C words! As a joke by the way.
I find it somewhat ironic that some people use those terms about their favorite band while secretly hoping for a reunion....





/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

No, it says that the band hasn't done a very good job of selling itself to the people since the relaunch.

So you're saying they did a better job in countries outside the USA? Places where fans go see the show for what it is, instead of staying home because they've been told "it's not GN'R"?
Why didn't you go see GNR in 2014?

There's no real good way to say this without being The Ugly American, so I won't try and dress it up.  We're a bit more discerning than the rest of the world.  We aren't just going to be thrilled you decided to come see us every few years and we'll take whatever you give us.

But even taking it a step further, in lot of these other countries, they hit maybe a handful of cities.  And sometimes, its literally just one city.  So if you want to see them, you go there.  

You could make the argument they did the same thing here with the Las Vegas thing.  But I would counter that they didn't come to Las Vegas to play an arena or a stadium, did they?  They set up shop in the one of the bigger vacation cities in the country and hoped out of country of millions of people would trek to see them and fill up a spot that only holds a small number of folks.

But if you are going to do an actual tour of this country, you have to hit a number of states and sell your wares many times over.  And based on recent touring, the places have gotten not only smaller, but fewer and father between.  That's no accident.

The lack of demand for GNR in this country in 2015 is not due to a bunch of unfavorable trends, forces conspiring against them, and a public that isn't interested in rock, going to concerts, etc.  Its because there just isn't much demand for the current version of the product.

Don't church it up. 

The lack of demand?

Yes, the lack of demand.  You don't start playing smaller places in few cities out of the goodness of your heart.  You do it because that's all you can swing.

As for the rest of your pissy little rant I didn't bother to quote, I'll just say this.  I'm all for being a fan, but not to the point any of us should have to deny reality and try to pretend everything is awesome if it ain't.  At this point, we are fans of a big name band that has become a niche product, drawing from an dwindling amount of people that gets smaller over time.

Like it, don't like it, learn to love it.  Its just how it is.

If you see value in stomping your feet and swearing all is well, you do that.  I don't see the value in self delusion that I find laughable on its face.  Its not accomplishing anything.

[D-GenerationX]

Haha. Of course. All his worries would disappear if the nostalgia cash grab happened. I used the N and C words! As a joke by the way.
I find it somewhat ironic that some people use those terms about their favorite band while secretly hoping for a reunion....

I mock reunionists at every turn.  Learn to read.

Sure ain't like there's even one of my posts you miss.

[TheBaconman]

No, it says that the band hasn't done a very good job of selling itself to the people since the relaunch.

So you're saying they did a better job in countries outside the USA? Places where fans go see the show for what it is, instead of staying home because they've been told "it's not GN'R"?
Why didn't you go see GNR in 2014?

There's no real good way to say this without being The Ugly American, so I won't try and dress it up.  We're a bit more discerning than the rest of the world.  We aren't just going to be thrilled you decided to come see us every few years and we'll take whatever you give us.

But even taking it a step further, in lot of these other countries, they hit maybe a handful of cities.  And sometimes, its literally just one city.  So if you want to see them, you go there.  

You could make the argument they did the same thing here with the Las Vegas thing.  But I would counter that they didn't come to Las Vegas to play an arena or a stadium, did they?  They set up shop in the one of the bigger vacation cities in the country and hoped out of country of millions of people would trek to see them and fill up a spot that only holds a small number of folks.

But if you are going to do an actual tour of this country, you have to hit a number of states and sell your wares many times over.  And based on recent touring, the places have gotten not only smaller, but fewer and father between.  That's no accident.

The lack of demand for GNR in this country in 2015 is not due to a bunch of unfavorable trends, forces conspiring against them, and a public that isn't interested in rock, going to concerts, etc.  Its because there just isn't much demand for the current version of the product.

Don't church it up. 

The lack of demand?

Yes, the lack of demand.  You don't start playing smaller places in few cities out of the goodness of your heart.  You do it because that's all you can swing.

As for the rest of your pissy little rant I didn't bother to quote, I'll just say this.  I'm all for being a fan, but not to the point any of us should have to deny reality and try to pretend everything is awesome if it ain't.  At this point, we are fans of a big name band that has become a niche product, drawing from an dwindling amount of people that gets smaller over time.

Like it, don't like it, learn to love it.  Its just how it is.

If you see value in stomping your feet and swearing all is well, you do that.  I don't see the value in self delusion that I find laughable on its face.  Its not accomplishing anything.

I am not really a fan of the argument.  Guns goes to a country and plays one show that sells great but that's becuase everyone comes to see them.    It's just another excuse as to why the U.S. market doesn't go see them

For example

Guns n roses can tour Canada and as history has proven and in my opinion could tour coast to coast to let's say roughly 10 shows.   Canada has a population of roughly 30 million.  So that's  1 show for every 3 million

So for the u ites states to equal this rough equivalent.    With a rough population of 300 million guns n roses would have to put on 100 shows coast to coast to equal the 1 show for every 3 million people 

So even though the amount of shows may be less in other countries just based off population it blows away anything that could be done south of the boarder

[jarmo]

There's no real good way to say this without being The Ugly American, so I won't try and dress it up.  We're a bit more discerning than the rest of the world.  We aren't just going to be thrilled you decided to come see us every few years and we'll take whatever you give us.

Well, post a self portrait!  

You mean spoiled?

But even taking it a step further, in lot of these other countries, they hit maybe a handful of cities.  And sometimes, its literally just one city.  So if you want to see them, you go there.  

The populations of some of these countries are less than the NYC metropolitan area.
You don't always make multiple shows in a country with six million people.

But if you are going to do an actual tour of this country, you have to hit a number of states and sell your wares many times over.  And based on recent touring, the places have gotten not only smaller, but fewer and father between.  That's no accident.

Same goes for AC/DC! Less shows in less places! GN'R's fault?

Yes, the lack of demand.  You don't start playing smaller places in few cities out of the goodness of your heart.  You do it because that's all you can swing.

Yeah, you'd have a point if you didn't have the facts to look at.

They haven't toured the US "properly" since 2012. And that was the UCAP tour following the arena tour that just finished weeks earlier.
2013 and 2014 was a mix with festivals and those smaller venues in markets they didn't hit on the UCAP tour in 2012.

They went places they didn't go before. Sounds like something mortismurphy would say!


If there's a lack of demand, you don't get asked to headline Rock On The Range, Rocklahoma, Governors Ball and the Quebec Festival.
Explain how a band that nobody wants to see gets asked to headline festivals in front of tens of thousands of people?

Makes no sense!
Except to you.




/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

I am not really a fan of the argument.  Guns goes to a country and plays one show that sells great but that's becuase everyone comes to see them.    It's just another excuse as to why the U.S. market doesn't go see them

I agree, somewhat.

The real reason is the people in the US just don't care about this line-up on anything but a pretty niche level.  But that tends to start wars, so I was trying to soften that a bit.  Its not that I don't believe the other arguments I made, I was just trying to give something other than the brutal, unvarnished truth that seems to hard to accept to some.

Here in the US, people still following Guns N' Roses in the present day fit a profile, for the most part :

- old enough to remember the band in their heyday
- big enough fans of Axl Rose to always be interested in whatever he's doing
- willing to tolerate a band of replacement players if that's all they can get

The big issue in this country is that whether the person in question ticks all three of those boxes or just one of them, there are less of them each passing year.  People move on.

[D-GenerationX]

They haven't toured the US "properly" since 2012. And that was the UCAP tour following the arena tour that just finished weeks earlier.
2013 and 2014 was a mix with festivals and those smaller venues in markets they didn't hit on the UCAP tour in 2012.

Then I think the best way to put it would to see what that next "proper" tour of the US looks like, no?

I'm willing to roll those dice.  I'd like to be proven wrong, but I don't think I'm going to be.  If I am, hey...we'll all have a big laugh, right?

But if YOU are the one that's wrong, you'll obviously never cop to it.  But its not like we can't still have some chuckles.  It will just be in your furious attempts to put lipstick on the pig.  That's always good for a hoot.

[jarmo]

Wrong about what?

They could do a tour of bars playing acoustic for fun and you'd be there saying it's because of demand!


Why did you skip most of my post?
I thought you were interested in discussions....

Also, why did you not go see GN'R last year less than an hour away from where you live?




/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

Wrong about what?

How the next "proper" tour of the US is structured.

Why did you skip most of my post?

I quote the relevant passages meriting discussion and skip the (often repeated) filler.

[mortismurphy]

Ehh, August?

Guns n Roses, Metallica, Faith no More sold out Foxboro (which is now replaced by Gillette) in something like 30 minutes back in 1992.

The big pop acts sell out 20k seats in minutes (if not seconds), now.

So, the fact the show isn't til August? Yeah, doesn't matter.

You said it.

An arena in Canada is the same size as a arena in the u ites states  14-20 gs

A stadium is roughly the same size as a stadium in the states  40-60 gs

There is not some weird stadium conversion factor to use here hahaa

Are the 7 Canadian shows all in stadiums, too?  I think that was the point....that the US was getting huge stadium shows while Canada was getting arena shows.  I'm not sure (which is why I said "even if the US arenas"), as I'm not up on the Canadian leg of the AC DC tour.

I ou know of the one show here in edmonton. That will be in our football stadium and too a sell out have 60000 people there.  And rumors are they may announce a second date

If that's the case, the disparity is even larger.

7 stadium shows for 35 million vs 6 stadium shows for 350 million.

And I absolutely understand why....I think we've been hashing that out over the past couple pages.

Edited for typo: arena vs stadium!

Good points but I am uncomfortable with this argument for the following reasons. Firstly, there are so many factors we don't know. We do not know what will be the eventual sales figure for the six dates already booked. We do not know if there will be subsequent United States dates or legs added. Secondly, other facts alter the number of gigs allocated beyond, a simple case of demographics. There probably will not be a Chinese date added after all, and perhaps not an Indian leg. By the simple laws of demographics, China, India and Russia should be the main areas of touring. As you are probably aware, promoters, scheduling and even politics can alter the itinerary. Few people would claim Germany prefers Acca Dacca over the UK on a certifiable and specific scale of, 8/2, yet that is the ratio of gigs allocated; it cannot be down to simple, popularity (in each respective country) then. And we are dealing with two countries with (loosely) comparable demographics.

[pilferk]

Ehh, August?

Guns n Roses, Metallica, Faith no More sold out Foxboro (which is now replaced by Gillette) in something like 30 minutes back in 1992.

The big pop acts sell out 20k seats in minutes (if not seconds), now.

So, the fact the show isn't til August? Yeah, doesn't matter.

You said it.

Yup, because it demonstrates how far rock has fallen in the US.  They are not the "big pop acts" of today...they just aren't.

That's not just GnR.  It's almost every traditional rock act who might want to tour.  There are a very small number of exceptions.

Good points but I am uncomfortable with this argument for the following reasons. Firstly, there are so many factors we don't know.

As always, with every band. Not just AC/DC

We do not know what will be the eventual sales figure for the six dates already booked.

I'm perfectly willing to assume sell outs at all shows scheduled in the US and Canada. Full boats.

That doesn't favor the U.S. in comparisons sake.

We do not know if there will be subsequent United States dates or legs added.

Given their time line, we know there won't be any further STADIUM legs added, because by the time they finish up in the states, they have no time to...because by early Oct, those stadiums are in use by football teams (pro and college) until well after the snow flies.

Could they add some arena shows into fall and winter? Sure.  But they haven't yet.  So lets go with what we know, and adjust if we get new information. Rather than trying to find a way to give them the benefit of the doubt?  These are the shows scheduled.

Secondly, other facts alter the number of gigs allocated beyond, a simple case of demographics. There probably will not be a Chinese date added after all, and perhaps not an Indian leg. By the simple laws of demographics, China, India and Russia should be the main areas of touring. As you are probably aware, promoters, scheduling and even politics can alter the itinerary.

I think we can safely rule out political issues in Canada and the US. Right?  I mean...there's no political blow back or road block to them playing shows in either country...so largely that argument is moot.

Scheduling, maybe...I mentioned why they couldn't do more shows post mid-september in US stadiums.  But, then, they prioritized other markets over the US..because they could have started a US leg earlier, if they thought it was going to be more profitable than the other markets they're doing.

Promoters? Sure....maybe the US promoter is incompetent and leaving money on the table.  I think that's a long shot...but..if that's what you want to go with.  I think, looking at recent ticket sales for big rock acts, combined with anecdotes from members of those acts (see Metallica discussion earlier)...there's more compelling evidence supporting a lack of demand. But...you know...if you have some dirty laundry on the promoter, I'm interested in seeing it aired.

Few people would claim Germany prefers Acca Dacca over the UK on a certifiable and specific scale of, 8/2, yet that is the ratio of gigs allocated; it cannot be down to simple, popularity (in each respective country) then. And we are dealing with two countries with (loosely) comparable demographics.

Yeah, we're (meaning you and me) not talking about Germany and the UK, because I can't comment on the ticket sales and album sales over there.  I get the impression that rock sells very well in the UK, so maybe you have another moron promoter covering the UK, too.  Or maybe they'll be back there (there's more opportunity for them, post Sept, in big venues, than there is stateside), soon.  I'd say there's about a 90% better chance they add a UK tour leg than there is that they offer another US leg.  But we'll see....

[jarmo]

How the next "proper" tour of the US is structured.

I don't recall making statements about how it's gonna be "structured". I pointed out the faults in your personal opinion and your disregard for facts that go against that opinion.

I quote the relevant passages meriting discussion and skip the (often repeated) filler.

Yeah, pointing out to you that there's evidence of there being a demand for GN'R is filler to somebody who wants the opposite to be true.
So much for being interested in discussion. Silly.


The fact the you didn't go see GN'R play an hour away from where you live is interesting to paint a picture of how people think. This is also "filler" since you don't want to be used as an example of a so called "hardcore fan" who skips their favorite band's show for whatever reason(s).






/jarmo

[pilferk]

I agree with you on this... but all you'd have to say was that they MIGHT sell better in the US with the calssic lineup and then this discussion with DX would never happen again. 

Ignoring all the "should they/will they/can they" arguments.

If they all woke up tomorrow (and pink puffy unicorns were dancing on rainbows), shook hands, and reunited...announced it...and released an album in 6 months:

They'd release an album that would sell somewhere around 3 million copies in the US.
They'd do ONE US tour that would sell like gangbusters.
And they'd be right back to, pretty much, where they are right now, in terms of "demand" and potential tour ticket sales, in the US.

And I KNOW I'll get shit for saying that...people are going to rant and rave and piss and moan.  And I'm gonna let them. Go ahead...I'll even stay silent.

But, in the current environment, with demand in the US what it is, with musical tastes what they are, and with competition in the live market what it is...unless something changes DRASTICALLY in the music tastes of the US, and in the live concert scene...that's what I'm pretty sure would happen.

One big pop on tour, decent album sales (because nobody sells 5 to 10 million copies in the US without the last name "Swift" or "Perry"..and maybe not even then) and...back to earth.

[mortismurphy]

Some relevant points but can I just add that the Black Ice Tour lasted nearly three years and included three North American legs.

[pilferk]

Some relevant points but can I just add that the Black Ice Tour lasted nearly three years and included three North American legs.

You can. But it's 2015 and Metallica lost money LAST year in the US.

AC/DC and Metallica would both have been on my short list, up until VERY recently, of rock bands that could tour the US "normally" (as in, the way they all used to) and still make money.

All bets are off, and 5 years ago was a LONG time ago, in terms of this discussion.

[draguns]

Thank you. I do like being loved.  And I am a good choice so thanks haha

I will consider that there are more events in U.S. markets that could cause people to spend there money in other areas than in seeing live music/guns n roses.  I would be crazy not to say this. BUT....  The amount of events does not offset the population differnt in the two countries and can not be used as an excuse as to why people in the  United states choose not to see events

It does offset when you consider distribution.

It explains why there is a NEED to prioritize.  The different musical tastes (and preference for other types of live entertainment, like sports) is definitely "on us", as a whole.

If you want to say that, as a whole, the US musical tastes suck....I probably won't disagree.  What sells, and the acts that sell gobs of tickets around the country...not my cup of tea.

Also just because most of the Canadian pollution lives close to its major cities isn't always a plus when it comes to seeing events.  In a lot of parts of Canada unless u live in the downtown areas you are driving to these events.  Because the public fransportaion stinks.  I live about 45 mins away from the downtown area and have to drive to events    Which should be a factor in people staying home and not attending.  But it's not. We still manage to get out.   I wish we had a public fransportaion system like New York or some other U.S. city.  

Yeah, really good public transportation systems aren't as common as you think in the US. New York has a good one, Boston's is OK (when not inundated by 9 feet of snow)..but largely you'll find that the US population is driving into the city to see shows, too.  Some of us driving 2 to 3 hours to get there (me to NYC or Boston).

I'm not sure if the NY area has a good transportation system. It could actually be much BETTER. I live 30 minutes away from NYC and it takes me an hour and half to get back to NJ in the evening.

[draguns]

I am not really a fan of the argument.  Guns goes to a country and plays one show that sells great but that's becuase everyone comes to see them.    It's just another excuse as to why the U.S. market doesn't go see them

I agree, somewhat.

The real reason is the people in the US just don't care about this line-up on anything but a pretty niche level.  But that tends to start wars, so I was trying to soften that a bit.  Its not that I don't believe the other arguments I made, I was just trying to give something other than the brutal, unvarnished truth that seems to hard to accept to some.

Here in the US, people still following Guns N' Roses in the present day fit a profile, for the most part :

- old enough to remember the band in their heyday
- big enough fans of Axl Rose to always be interested in whatever he's doing
- willing to tolerate a band of replacement players if that's all they can get

The big issue in this country is that whether the person in question ticks all three of those boxes or just one of them, there are less of them each passing year.  People move on.

DX, I think you are spot on with this.

[pilferk]

Thank you. I do like being loved.  And I am a good choice so thanks haha

I will consider that there are more events in U.S. markets that could cause people to spend there money in other areas than in seeing live music/guns n roses.  I would be crazy not to say this. BUT....  The amount of events does not offset the population differnt in the two countries and can not be used as an excuse as to why people in the  United states choose not to see events

It does offset when you consider distribution.

It explains why there is a NEED to prioritize.  The different musical tastes (and preference for other types of live entertainment, like sports) is definitely "on us", as a whole.

If you want to say that, as a whole, the US musical tastes suck....I probably won't disagree.  What sells, and the acts that sell gobs of tickets around the country...not my cup of tea.

Also just because most of the Canadian pollution lives close to its major cities isn't always a plus when it comes to seeing events.  In a lot of parts of Canada unless u live in the downtown areas you are driving to these events.  Because the public fransportaion stinks.  I live about 45 mins away from the downtown area and have to drive to events    Which should be a factor in people staying home and not attending.  But it's not. We still manage to get out.   I wish we had a public fransportaion system like New York or some other U.S. city.  

Yeah, really good public transportation systems aren't as common as you think in the US. New York has a good one, Boston's is OK (when not inundated by 9 feet of snow)..but largely you'll find that the US population is driving into the city to see shows, too.  Some of us driving 2 to 3 hours to get there (me to NYC or Boston).

I'm not sure if the NY area has a good transportation system. It could actually be much BETTER. I live 30 minutes away from NYC and it takes me an hour and half to get back to NJ in the evening.

INTERNALLY, the system is pretty good. Buses, trains, subways, etc.  And the cabs are everywhere, if you know how to hail them.  Plus, NYC's streets actually make sense in their layout, east to west and north to south, so walking is a lot easier (unlike Boston, which is laid out like they had a drunk doing city planning).

EXTERNALLY (as in, trying to get into NYC from outside), it can be a right, confusing mess.  I either drive in, or take MetroNorth down from New Haven (because it makes sense, and I can get on either the harlem line of the 4, or to the main station hubs at G.C or Penn Station, easily).