Goodbye Ron (???)

[mortismurphy]

The fact that DC have included new material into their current setlist (RnR Train, Anything Goes, War Machine) is highly impressive

Yeah, very impressive that their current (?) setlist has songs from their 2008 album. What the hell are you smoking? The band isn't even on tour currently and yet here you are talking about a current setlist.
Maybe you need to go discuss this amazing thing over at some AC/DC fan site.




/jarmo

That is pretty low even for you. I obviously only have the Black Ice tour to go off, at least until May 2015. Watch the space (as they say): there will be Rock or Bust material present.

It's not low.  A good number of your posts have literally made me think you were smoking something.  We're supposed to "obviously" know that you were talking about the Black Ice tour??

 The point is that bands who usually have the nostalgic 'golden oldies' tag thrown at them (DC, Kiss, Stones) are actually far more prolific on the original material front than Axl. You have to lower the barometer beneath them to justify the label, 'band' (we were in a semantic debate on the word, 'band'). You have to find a band who are,

1/ (apparently) signed
2/ fairly big commercially: an established 'name'
3/ has a predetermined setlist of fixed 'hits' and 'album cuts'
4/ does not release original material

Both Kiss and DC would fail at the last hurdle. The Stones would, partially, fail on 3 and 4 (Doom and Gloom).

Right, but what is the point if the artists are putting out bland uninspired albums?  The only band you mentioned there that actually has taken some artistic risks in the last 20 years for better or worse is Metallica.  The only thing more generic than AC/DC's songs are their song titles.  I was shocked it took them 40 years to use "Rock or Bust."  There is nothing AC/DC, Kiss or The Stones do that I want Guns to emulate.  Guns probably could have gone that route 20 years ago by making that 95 Snakepit album the next Guns record.  They could have kept the machine going and had 10 more albums of generic sounding "rock n roll" just to add a couple new songs nobody cares about to the set list every few years.   They would have sold out tours based on their first few records and had radio success with any type of generic sounding Slash riff with Axl singing over it because the public likes what they are familiar with. And you know what?  Millions of people probably would have loved it, the band would have made a fortune and the general rock fan would have a different perception of Axl today.  I'm happy the band took the path less traveled and challenged themselves artistically.  The road Axl took in the mid to late 90's had to be anything but easy. Quality over quantity.  I would rather wait 20 years between records than get a generic sounding record every 2-3 years.  The one word you can never use to describe GNR's albums is generic.

Some of that is subjective (I happen to love Black Ice) and you are not getting an album through either method. True, GN'R could have put out Snakepit style albums, the path Axl avoided. They also could have went progressive which is the route Axl actually intended. The latter method produced only one album. Neither route is producing albums. You are simply not getting an album full stop, be that cheesy rock, rock n' roll, eclectic, progressive, jazz...

By the way, it is Jarmo who focused on ACDC. I only brought them up originally (along with Kiss) in the general sense that, here  are a band with a predetermined nostalgic setlist, who release albums.

Yeah, add KISS to that list. They took the make up off, reunited, put it on, farewell tour blah blah blah. Part of their deal is nostalgia. Just like AC/DC.
And hooray! AC/DC played three songs from the album they were touring. And you want to compare that to GN'R? 

The amount of things you find to whine about regarding GN'R. That's astounding.
Why not go post in Bad Obsession in the AC/DC thread about all the things you don't like about them?





/jarmo

There is actually very little I dislike about Acca Dacca. 'Mistress for Christmas' maybe?

Whatever you think of Kiss, Kiss have produced five original studio albums in nearly twenty-five years. Axl has only produced one paltry album in a similar time frame. Two of those Kiss albums have appeared in a very short recent period (2009/2012) since Axl released his only album since 1991, Chinese Democracy. During their career, Kiss, from their starting position as a hard rock band, have experimented with disco (Dynasty), pop (Unmasked) Prog rock (Elder) metal (Creatures of the Night) hair metal (much of their mid-late '80s output) and alternative/modern rock (Carnival of Souls). Some of these eras are still represented in the modern Kiss setlist (Lick it Up, War Machine, IWMFLY).

Just who is more the nostalgia act then, Kiss or Axl?

[Bodhi]

I hate to jump in here with this... but how do you compare GNR's evolution in their discography when it took a completely different band to produce Chinese Democracy?

As it's been pointed out the band that Guns N Roses started out as with Appetite .. COULD NOT have made Chinese Democracy or the songs that will eventually be on the follow up... so comparing what Metallica or ACDC has done with their changes or lack thereof ... doesn't really work in my opinion.

Sure it does,  I am talking about what Axl did.  Instead of taking the easy nostalgic route which was definitely available if he went along with those songs from the first Snakepit record, he had to build it all back up from scratch.  As a result we get less albums quantity wise, but the quality of what we do get is far superior. 

People have called Axl lazy and unmotivated, i find him to be the complete opposite.  I hate to bring up ex members in this section, but those last two Slash records, that is the quality of music we would be getting from GNR if they did what AC/DC and Kiss and all those bands who do things so "great" did.  How's that working out?

I like Slash's last two records... and if Axl had been the vocalist for them.. I'm sure more of the non solo Slash fans would as well...obviously.

As far as the change in sound with CD... Axl could not have achieved that with the old band... that's all I'm saying. I don't knock him for the change in sound once he had the ability to do that. I liked the outcome of the record.

In addition Axl is on record saying he wanted to continue making "Slash" records... so unless he was lying... his grand vision of CD wasn't the original plan anyway.

I remember Axl saying it would have been the easiest thing to do at the time because of lawsuits and other personal things he was dealing with..  I didnt get the impression that was something he really wanted to do if he didn't have those situations he was dealing with.  But I also wasn't there, so who knows.  I thought I remember that he rejected those songs from the Snakepit album, which to me once it came out sounded like the same old blues riffs , nothing new or exciting like the Illusions.

[JAEBALL]

I hate to jump in here with this... but how do you compare GNR's evolution in their discography when it took a completely different band to produce Chinese Democracy?

As it's been pointed out the band that Guns N Roses started out as with Appetite .. COULD NOT have made Chinese Democracy or the songs that will eventually be on the follow up... so comparing what Metallica or ACDC has done with their changes or lack thereof ... doesn't really work in my opinion.

Sure it does,  I am talking about what Axl did.  Instead of taking the easy nostalgic route which was definitely available if he went along with those songs from the first Snakepit record, he had to build it all back up from scratch.  As a result we get less albums quantity wise, but the quality of what we do get is far superior. 

People have called Axl lazy and unmotivated, i find him to be the complete opposite.  I hate to bring up ex members in this section, but those last two Slash records, that is the quality of music we would be getting from GNR if they did what AC/DC and Kiss and all those bands who do things so "great" did.  How's that working out?

I like Slash's last two records... and if Axl had been the vocalist for them.. I'm sure more of the non solo Slash fans would as well...obviously.

As far as the change in sound with CD... Axl could not have achieved that with the old band... that's all I'm saying. I don't knock him for the change in sound once he had the ability to do that. I liked the outcome of the record.

In addition Axl is on record saying he wanted to continue making "Slash" records... so unless he was lying... his grand vision of CD wasn't the original plan anyway.

I remember Axl saying it would have been the easiest thing to do at the time because of lawsuits and other personal things he was dealing with..  I didnt get the impression that was something he really wanted to do if he didn't have those situations he was dealing with.  But I also wasn't there, so who knows.  I thought I remember that he rejected those songs from the Snakepit album, which to me once it came out sounded like the same old blues riffs , nothing new or exciting like the Illusions.

I agree about Slash's songs at that time. His new stuff is really good tho. IMO

I am of the opinion that no matter what the material was back then...they would not have seen eye to eye on how to work with it.

[LongGoneDay]

I hate to jump in here with this... but how do you compare GNR's evolution in their discography when it took a completely different band to produce Chinese Democracy?

As it's been pointed out the band that Guns N Roses started out as with Appetite .. COULD NOT have made Chinese Democracy or the songs that will eventually be on the follow up... so comparing what Metallica or ACDC has done with their changes or lack thereof ... doesn't really work in my opinion.

Sure it does,  I am talking about what Axl did.  Instead of taking the easy nostalgic route which was definitely available if he went along with those songs from the first Snakepit record, he had to build it all back up from scratch.  As a result we get less albums quantity wise, but the quality of what we do get is far superior. 

People have called Axl lazy and unmotivated, i find him to be the complete opposite.  I hate to bring up ex members in this section, but those last two Slash records, that is the quality of music we would be getting from GNR if they did what AC/DC and Kiss and all those bands who do things so "great" did.  How's that working out?

My whole point is I find those bands stale and generic and something GNR could have easily done back in the late 90's to today , I'm glad they didn't. 

I?d love to agree with you, but how can a recording artist be the opposite of unmotivated, yet fail to produce more than one tangible record of original material in almost 25 years?
To put 25 years in perspective, Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain entire lifespans were only 2 years longer.

I would respectfully disagree that the one album he?s managed is far superior than the alumni?s discography.
I certainly wouldn?t want any band that I enjoy listening to, to emulate Gun?s post ?93 business model.
If they did, I could very well be long dead by the time they announce a new release.

Granted a vital one, Slash was only one member of GN'R, so saying a Guns record would sound like a Conspirators record had they stayed together is inaccurate.
I think Axl would love to have someone capable of consistently turning out the quality riffs/solos Slash has managed since the demise of the classic lineup.
Don?t think he?d mind his work ethic either, or Duff?s.
I?m sure he?d love to have someone as great as crafting a song as Izzy at his disposal. I don?t think it?s a stretch to assume they all respect each others respective talents, and what they brought to the table, but there?s obviously the human element, the clash of personalities that wouldn?t allow them to continue to work together.

[jarmo]

Mortismurphy, the AC/DC fan who likes (some) GN'R. You're on the wrong fan site.
It'd be nice if you managed to find some of the understanding you have for all those other bands for GN'R. But you don't.

Says it all!



/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

I?d love to agree with you, but how can a recording artist be the opposite of unmotivated, yet fail to produce more than one tangible record of original material in almost 25 years?
To put 25 years in perspective, Brian Jones, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain entire lifespans were only 2 years longer.

Legit point.

I would respectfully disagree that the one album he?s managed is far superior than the alumni?s discography.
I certainly wouldn?t want any band that I enjoy listening to, to emulate Gun?s post ?93 business model.
If they did, I could very well be long dead by the time they announce a new release.

Their business model post 1993 has been a disaster.  Even calling it a "business model" is a stretch.

But I don't really start that clock in 1993 though.  I think its more fair to start it around 2000 when Axl started to really record with a new band.

But even with a different starting date, its still been a fucking mess.  Anyone that won't concede that point resorts to furious spinning that should make any rational human being blush.  Once your big comeback retort is that things since TB took over aren't *quite* as fucked up as they were for the 10 years prior...and that is your BEST argument, you've got problems.

[jarmo]

I think the problems lie in the fact that some fans think they are experts on the business and take themselves way too seriously. You're a fan. Period. You're not a shareholder in the record company or a manager.

They think they know what's best for the band. Newsflash, they don't. They only know what they want. That's not necessarily the same thing, but try convincing them of that.




/jarmo

[jarmo]

Just some of his advise:

Quit. Before your organs fail from stress...and before you had to. I'm not talking about anything in particular or specific! (Laughs)

10,000 people throwing things at the stage and people passing out and getting carried out on stretchers from dehydration. Just try not to care.

Let's say the band has a reputation of doing things in a specific way, and then somebody joins that band. Then complains about the things that have given the band that reputation... Shouldn't the advice be: Don't join a band unless it's ran your way?




/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

I think the problems lie in the fact that some fans think they are experts on the business and take themselves way too seriously. You're a fan. Period. You're not a shareholder in the record company or a manager.

Well, they are people with eyes.  And can see what's been done with the band/brand over the past 15 years.

It speaks for itself.  Not sure anyone has to be a business savant to find it all underwhelming.

Your whole beef is the "real fans" are not supposed to notice that.  Or, if they do, just keep it to themselves.  Maybe if we don't talk about it, it will all go away.

Not sure what that's accomplishing.  Never been a real believer in self delusion.

[D-GenerationX]

Let's say the band has a reputation of doing things in a specific way, and then somebody joins that band. Then complains about the things that have given the band that reputation... Shouldn't the advice be: Don't join a band unless it's ran your way?

The advice should be that it shouldn't take you 8 years to arrive at the conclusion that things are pretty much exactly how you were told things would be if you joined that band.

If he had some sort of delusions of grandeur that he might be able to affect change, fine.  But it hardly took 8 full years to realize, hey, things are what they are and will not change.  That was probably evident as soon as 2011 or so.

[Ali]

Ron 'Bumblefoot' Thal On Difficult Band Members

Ron gave his thoughts on how to deal with difficult band members at his guitar clinic on March 7th 2015 at the Mash House in Edinburgh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXdiktnl3bA

Oh boy, you've opened up pandora's box now

Just some of his advise:

Quit. Before your organs fail from stress...and before you had to. I'm not talking about anything in particular or specific! (Laughs)

10,000 people throwing things at the stage and people passing out and getting carried out on stretchers from dehydration. Just try not to care.

I don't understand Ron's approach here.  He told Alternative Nation he cannot talk about GN'R, but he can take passive aggressive shots at GN'R when it's not in a formal interview?

Interesting.  Ron needs a new publicist.  That much seems clear.

Ali

[JAEBALL]

I think it just boils down to ... Ron, Robin, Bucket, Brain... They are not willing to make GNR their number 1 priority ..professionally.

Dizzy, Chris, DJ... They seem to be quite alright with putting everything else on the backburner for when GNR comes a knockin.

So I don't know if Ron ever thought he would get things to change during his tenure... just now he's no longer willing to put GNR first if they come calling last minute. I see nothing wrong with that. It's his life...


His personality is very different than those other guys... who basically never mention GNR with the exception of a couple Brain interviews that I recall.. so of course... certain people are not going to like anything he says or does regarding the situation.

[D-GenerationX]

I don't understand Ron's approach here.  He told Alternative Nation he cannot talk about GN'R, but he can take passive aggressive shots at GN'R when it's not in a formal interview?

Interesting.  Ron needs a new publicist.  That much seems clear.

Oh, I assumed he didn't have one.  If he does, that person should never be hired by anyone.

Ron is so inconsistent, disjointed, and generally all over the map, I would assume he is just winging all of this.

[JAEBALL]

Ron 'Bumblefoot' Thal On Difficult Band Members

Ron gave his thoughts on how to deal with difficult band members at his guitar clinic on March 7th 2015 at the Mash House in Edinburgh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXdiktnl3bA

Oh boy, you've opened up pandora's box now

Just some of his advise:

Quit. Before your organs fail from stress...and before you had to. I'm not talking about anything in particular or specific! (Laughs)

10,000 people throwing things at the stage and people passing out and getting carried out on stretchers from dehydration. Just try not to care.

I don't understand Ron's approach here.  He told Alternative Nation he cannot talk about GN'R, but he can take passive aggressive shots at GN'R when it's not in a formal interview?

Interesting.  Ron needs a new publicist.  That much seems clear.

Ali

He just needs to come to terms with that nobody is going to want to interview him UNLESS they can ask about Axl... that's all.

[D-GenerationX]

He just needs to come to terms with that nobody is going to want to interview him UNLESS they can ask about Axl... that's all.

Agreed.  Dude is swimming way upstream with that one.

Problem is, he is only making people more interested to ask about it.  His behavior has only added more fuel to the fire.  If he can't talk, why?  Is it ugly?  Was there some fallout?

And so forth.

He now has created a situation where people not only want to as him about his time in GNR, they want to know why he is being so coy about it all.

[Ali]

I don't understand Ron's approach here.  He told Alternative Nation he cannot talk about GN'R, but he can take passive aggressive shots at GN'R when it's not in a formal interview?

Interesting.  Ron needs a new publicist.  That much seems clear.

Oh, I assumed he didn't have one.  If he does, that person should never be hired by anyone.

Ron is so inconsistent, disjointed, and generally all over the map, I would assume he is just winging all of this.

The interviewer from Alt Nation said that Ron's publicist never told him (the interviewer) that GN'R was off-limits.  That's why we know he has one.

Yes, I completely agree.  His publicist and/or PR person are not very good.

The thing is if you don't want to talk about GN'R, then don't talk about GN'R...at all.  Don't think that you can make these passive aggressive digs outside of a formal interview and people aren't going to pick up on it.  Be consistent.

Ali

[mortismurphy]

Mortismurphy, the AC/DC fan who likes (some) GN'R. You're on the wrong fan site.
It'd be nice if you managed to find some of the understanding you have for all those other bands for GN'R. But you don't.

Says it all!



/jarmo

If you are confused why I am more lenient on DC than Guns, the answer is very simple: AC/DC release albums (occasionally), about two per decade. As a fan I look to two criteria for a reasonably big signed band to be considered a functioning band. I look firstly to albums of original studio material and secondly to live shows. Those are the two moments that I interact with the band, listening to the album and attending the live shows. If the albums did not exist, I would not have been a fan in the first place. When one of those avenues is cut off, as in Axl's case, you are left with a vacuum.

[Ali]

He just needs to come to terms with that nobody is going to want to interview him UNLESS they can ask about Axl... that's all.

Agreed.  Dude is swimming way upstream with that one.

Problem is, he is only making people more interested to ask about it.  His behavior has only added more fuel to the fire.  If he can't talk, why?  Is it ugly?  Was there some fallout?

And so forth.

He now has created a situation where people not only want to as him about his time in GNR, they want to know why he is being so coy about it all.

I agree with you again.  This is a huge part of why I don't buy that he can't or doesn't want to balance GN'R with his solo projects as his reasoning, or SOLE reasoning, for why he is out of GN'R.

I don't think someone who's only issue with a situation is the scheduling problems makes these little passive aggressive digs, especially in the context of a discussion on how to deal with difficult bandmates.

As you said, his behavior has added fuel to the fire.  I will take it a step further and say it has made his stated reasoning for leaving GN'R or wanting to focus on his solo career seem dubious at best as far as being the WHOLE truth, IMO.

Ali

[D-GenerationX]

Even if Ron makes his way back into the fold, I still highly doubt he will ever explain his behavior over the past year so.

I'd expect some form of "that's in the past, not talking about it" type of thing.

[Ali]

Even if Ron makes his way back into the fold, I still highly doubt he will ever explain his behavior over the past year so.

I'd expect some form of "that's in the past, not talking about it" type of thing.

I personally assume that if we notice these things Ron says and does publicly, GN'R and Team Brazil also notices.  That's perhaps too big an assumption, but if it is out in public, they certainly CAN notice it.

Having said that, I feel personally that you cannot do and say all the things Ron has and not have burned bridges to some extent.

So, do you really think it's likely he'll make his way back into the fold?

I honestly think the more time that goes on, the more he makes these kind of passive aggressive comments, the less likely it becomes.

Ali