Goodbye Ron (???)

[jarmo]

Yes, we are discussing a rock band, that you don't like a whole lot. Again, another observation.

When we were a bit/much younger, many of us used to cry to get something. Then we got older, and some post on message boards hoping to achieve similar results.



/jarmo

[mortismurphy]

Yes, we are discussing a rock band, that you don't like a whole lot. Again, another observation.

Correction, that I feel have taken a wrong direction since, c.2011.

There is a lot I like about Guns - even new Guns.

When we were a bit/much younger, many of us used to cry to get something. Then we got older, and some post on message boards hoping to achieve similar results.

I do not think anyone is under any illusion that Axl will see our messages and go, ''you know what, he is correct'', significantly altering how he runs his band in the process. If anyone believe this, they do not know a terribly large amount about W. Axl Rose.

In regards to Strawman, your (and your supporters') problem is you have created in your mind this archetypal poster called a 'whiner' which you then use as a portmanteau dumping ground for everyone who may possess, any sort of criticism, no matter how slight, about Axl Rose or new guns: you are either a 'whiner' or a supporter; no grey zone exists. So when you start arguing about something that does not even apply to the person you are arguing, with, that is when you produce your numerous straw men.

I mean I even surprised you when I said ''TSI stinks to high heaven''.

[FunkyMonkey]

Compare to the Robin -> Dj situation. We didn't know Robin was gone until they announced Dj had joined.

/jarmo

But a statement from GN'R regarding the rumor that Robin was gone was posted, 16 days after the rumor appeared on the message boards.


Edited by jarmo to add: I was asked to post the following by the GN'R camp:

Guns N' Robin:

Robin's plans took everyone in Guns a bit off guard as well as our fans.

Really, Del James' private email that someone took it upon themselves to post publicly is really the best way for us to address things at this time. "Only Robin knows what Robin's doing."

Neither we or management etc. know anymore in this regard and we prefer not to speculate or offer opinions at this time.

Robin's Robin. We're in negotiations for the release of Chinese Democracy and things are going well.

When we begin to put tour plans together we'll see where things are at. Until then, Robin's touring with NIN and we're working with management on our game plans.

Our thanks to those who continue to show their support.

Guns N' Roses

April 20, 2008

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=51313.0

A press release was then issued:

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=163

[jarmo]

In regards to Strawman, your (and your supporters') problem is you have created in your mind this archetypal poster called a 'whiner' which you then use as a portmanteau dumping ground for everyone who may possess, any sort of criticism, no matter how slight, about Axl Rose or new guns: you are either a 'whiner' or a supporter; no grey zone exists. So when you start arguing about something that does not even apply to the person you are arguing, with, that is when you produce your numerous straw men.

No. I've just noticed over the years that some of you like to spend a majority of your time on these fan sites complaining.

Compare to the Robin -> Dj situation. We didn't know Robin was gone until they announced Dj had joined.

/jarmo

But a statement from GN'R regarding the rumor that Robin was gone was posted, 16 days after the rumor appeared on the message boards.

And it states the same many of us have said. There's no reason to look at things until there's a reason to.
That press release just stated they didn't know what was going on.



/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

I do not think anyone is under any illusion that Axl will see our messages and go, ''you know what, he is correct'', significantly altering how he runs his band in the process.

No.

But we sure seem to operate under the premise that he takes notes on the troublemakers, don't we?  So never is heard a discouraging word.

[D-GenerationX]

No. I've just noticed over the years that some of you like to spend a majority of your time on these fan sites complaining.

Your definition of complaining is pretty off base.

But, it sure comes across that you like setting things up that way so you can lecture.

Really, we all win.  The majority of us are able to have what would be considered normal conversations with fellow fans.  You get to apply your wacked out standards and look down your nose and shake your head disapprovingly.

And life goes on.

[EmilyGNR]

Yes, we are discussing a rock band, that you don't like a whole lot. Again, another observation.

When we were a bit/much younger, many of us used to cry to get something. Then we got older, and some post on message boards hoping to achieve similar results.



/jarmo

Haha, great analysis and summation 

[EmilyGNR]

No. I've just noticed over the years that some of you like to spend a majority of your time on these fan sites complaining.

Your definition of complaining is pretty off base.

But, it sure comes across that you like setting things up that way so you can lecture.

Really, we all win.  The majority of us are able to have what would be considered normal conversations with fellow fans.  You get to apply your wacked out standards and look down your nose and shake your head disapprovingly.

And life goes on.

You consider yourself a "normal fan" 

I find Jarmo to be infinitely more reasonable and knowledgeable than you, but of course you will say we belong to the same "cult".

[D-GenerationX]

You consider yourself a "normal fan" 

I find Jarmo to be infinitely more reasonable and knowledgeable than you, but of course you will say we belong to the same "cult".

I think you both set yourself up to be disappointed.  Well, "disappointed" is probably the wrong word.

What I mean is that you set up standards and demands of fandom that are fairly outside the norm.  By the very parameters you set up, most people are going to fail your test of loyalty.  So then you get to shake your heads disapprovingly and tell people how unworthy they are.

But, here's the rub.  Very few people consider your parameters rational.  I know you two think it all makes sense.  Most do not.  So while we get a constant stream of lectures and dressing down, its hard to take super seriously because the standards we are supposedly not meeting are ridiculous.

End of the day, everyone here is a fan.  We wouldn't be here otherwise.  Just because you see value in convincing yourself (and trying to convince us) that we are lesser fans doesn't mean it has much application in our lives.  I wouldn't say the rest of us see you as members of a cult, but we certainly chuckle to ourselves when you get up on the soapbox and tell us how terrible we are.  Its just you guys doing your thing, which you think is needed.

To each their own.

[jarmo]

Your definition of complaining is pretty off base.

Not really. It's what some of you spend most of your time on these fan sites doing. There's always something wrong. With everything. And if there's something good, it's not that interesting.

What word would you use for complaining without anything constructive added?

Nobody claimed that you think Axl is gonna pay attention to what you think. Nobody.
But none of you have ever managed to explain the point of these complaints to me... If somebody complains to you about the weather every day, at some point you do get tired of it.


I'm sorry that it's hard to take people like yourself seriously. You're on a GN'R fan site and you've openly admitted that this band isn't really GN'R. People like to think of themselves in all kinds of ways. Among them objective, open minded, informed and whatever. That's all amazing, but in reality those words are just that.... Words.

What I mean is that you set up standards and demands of fandom that are fairly outside the norm.  By the very parameters you set up, most people are going to fail your test of loyalty.  So then you get to shake your heads disapprovingly and tell people how unworthy they are.

Yeah, I know. Amazing how out of line it is to assume people coming to fan sites would actually like the band that site is dedicated to. I don't mean they liked the band decades or years ago. I mean now. At this moment. Also, since they like the band, they wouldn't constantly feel the need to fill some kind of void in their lives looking for things they don't like and/or agree with. I know that's a lot to ask for!

Now, go ahead and use your old trick: "Straw man" followed by "there's no void in my life." Well the time you're using to complain could be used more productively don't you think?  




/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

Not really. It's what some of you spend most of your time on these fan sites doing. There's always something wrong. With everything. And if there's something good, it's not that interesting.

And you don't think this has a bit of persecution complex to it, this mindset?  Bit "woe is everything", no?

But none of you have ever managed to explain the point of these complaints to me... If somebody complains to you about the weather every day, at some point you do get tired of it.

Because they aren't complaints.  That you choose to define them as such is your problem.  Its not on us to explain something to you that only exists in your own head.

Where does that conversation ever go?  If we reject your premise outright as foolish and misguided, how are we supposed to get invested in justifying it to you?  It has no meaning in our lives, not living up to your outside the norm definitions of fandom.  If you're mad, you just have to get glad again.

Yeah, I know. Amazing how out of line it is to assume people coming to fan sites would actually like the band that site is dedicated to. I don't mean they liked the band decades or years ago. I mean now. At this moment. Also, since they like the band, they wouldn't constantly feel the need to fill some kind of void in their lives looking for things they don't like and/or agree with. I know that's a lot to ask for!

Every detour in every thread has the same common denominator : questioning the fandom of others because you don't feel it matches up to your ideal.

Things hum along nicely whenever you, Emily, or whoever is not swooping in grinding traffic to a halt with that same tired crap.

What are you accomplishing?  What have you seen in all this time that leads you to believe you are one well worded restating of your same demands away from us seeing it your way?  Its just not going to happen.

Meanwhile, we continue to waste time and typing.

[jarmo]

And you don't think this has a bit of persecution complex to it, this mindset?  Bit "woe is everything", no?

No complex, just an observation.

Because they aren't complaints.  That you choose to define them as such is your problem.  Its not on us to explain something to you that only exists in your own head.

Come on. I know you prefer it to be described as "my honest opinion" which happens to be negatively slanted most of the time!

Every detour in every thread has the same common denominator : questioning the fandom of others because you don't feel it matches up to your ideal.

And for some reason it bothers you to be questioned!

On the other hand, people like yourself are free to post things about how we are brainwashed, cult like, nazis, aren't allowed to think freely and whatever else nonsense you come up with.

What are you accomplishing?  What have you seen in all this time that leads you to believe you are one well worded restating of your same demands away from us seeing it your way?  Its just not going to happen.

Meanwhile, we continue to waste time and typing.

Well, I do find it ironic when I see people post about a past tour or something and look back at it fondly. Considering a bunch of those same people spent the time pointing out all the things that were wrong at the time.
I hope people realize it's more enjoyable to enjoy the present instead of complaining about it now and then looking back at it in a few years thinking about how amazing that time actually was.





/jarmo

[FunkyMonkey]

And it states the same many of us have said. There's no reason to look at things until there's a reason to.
That press release just stated they didn't know what was going on.

/jarmo

There's a lot of information in the press release.  More importantly it was communicating with the fans.  Letting us know what was happening with the band.  We have none of that now.

[D-GenerationX]

Every detour in every thread has the same common denominator : questioning the fandom of others because you don't feel it matches up to your ideal.

And for some reason it bothers you to be questioned!

I just don't know where the conversation goes.  That's all.

You've been running this site for what, 16 years?  18 years?  You haven't caught on that most people don't see things your way?

Aren't there times you type out these lectures and ask yourself why you are bothering?  You know who your fellow travelers are and who are not.  Is there really any serious chance that the people that roll their eyes at your fan demands will suddenly go 180 degrees and recant? 

[jarmo]

There's a lot of information in the press release.  More importantly it was communicating with the fans.  Letting us know what was happening with the band.  We have none of that now.

Most of it is relating to the release of Chinese Democracy and that they don't know what's gonna happen once they start touring.

Without having a press release now, isn't it kinda safe to assume that you could come to similar conclusions today?

Aren't there times you type out these lectures and ask yourself why you are bothering?  You know who your fellow travelers are and who are not.  Is there really any serious chance that the people that roll their eyes at your fan demands will suddenly go 180 degrees and recant? 

They're not lectures. Just like you like to point out how things suck, I point out that things don't need to suck all the fucking time if you took time and focused on something else. That's all.
I don't care about trying to convert anybody. As long as the supportive fans know the deal. They should know it's not weird or out of line to actually enjoy their favorite band. That's the whole point.




/jarmo

[FunkyMonkey]

Most of it is relating to the release of Chinese Democracy and that they don't know what's gonna happen once they start touring.

Because that's what was happening with the band at that time.

Without having a press release now, isn't it kinda safe to assume that you could come to similar conclusions today?

/jarmo

They put out a press release updating the fans on the current status of the band.

Right now we don't know.  People are assuming a lot of things, we are all guessing.  A little communication would go a long way to help clear things up.

[jarmo]

Clear things up?

Like this would clear things up: We don't know at the moment, when we have a tour, we will look at it then.

Really? 



/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

Clear things up?

Like this would clear things up: We don't know at the moment, when we have a tour, we will look at it then.

Really? 

"Ron Thal is in our band.  We are happy to have him."

"Ron Thal is no longer in our band.  We wish him well."

This is hard?

[jarmo]

I thought you were open minded and into speculation. And yet you can't seem to come up with any reason why that wouldn't be a good idea at this point?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but posting bad news without a solution isn't always the best idea. I'm sure you know this!
On the other hand, if there's no bad news to post, posting updates about who's in the band, without any change, isn't a good idea either.

It's not game day, you don't need to post your line up.




/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

I thought you were open minded and into speculation. And yet you can't seem to come up with any reason why that wouldn't be a good idea at this point?

You want me to speculate?  Fine, I'll speculate.

I think the guy is gone.  I think he got tired of sitting on his ass for 8 years and making zero progress creatively as a band, so he bounced.

I think the reason nothing is said is that they still hope by the time they get their asses back in gear, Ron will take the money and come back because its so obviously the best payday he will ever have, they are betting he will shelve his objections in exchange for a check.

That's my speculation.  They won't say he's in the band right now, because right now, he ain't.