Goodbye Ron (???)

[D-GenerationX]

Jarmo.. I apologize for steering off this way. But as in most threads... they all end up bouncing around.

Later in the year, god willing, we'll be talking about new stuff.

[JAEBALL]

Jarmo.. I apologize for steering off this way. But as in most threads... they all end up bouncing around.

Later in the year, god willing, we'll be talking about new stuff.

That would be very nice...

[D-GenerationX]

I have seen others go this way too, and I see the point made.

You do wonder what they would have done creatively without Izzy.  What does a Rose-Slash-McKagan album sound like?  Not sure.

All we really have by way of evidence is Symphony for the Devil and Spaghetti incident.....

I always say we have 'Coma' and 'Locomotive', the only 2 Rose/Slash compositions.  Great tunes, both.  Both in my top 10, probably.  Top 12, perhaps.

I'd also throw in 'Estranged', because I think Slash got bent right over on the lack of a songwriting credit on that one.  That's a top 5 song for me.

But what's the common denominator?  All longer, epic, type songs.  Can you make a whole album of that?

[pilferk]

Big time.

But...did you really dig his solo stuff?  I was a huge Izzy backer, but I was underwhelmed.

Creatively? I dug it, esp the stuff HE wrote. The few tracks he didn't.....very "meh". I still listen to Somebody Knockin....

I thought the presentation/playing/performances were a little lacking.  The Ju Ju Hounds weren't exactly a supergroup, the music playing wasn't exactly technically stellar, and Izzy's strength was never going to make him an ideal front man.

But then...there you go.

[pilferk]

Agreed about dead horse... ha but I don't mind personally

Would a tour of that magnitude received the same financial push if Slash was the one who walked tho?

Nope.  But now we're talking about commercial appeal and marketability. Slash's only equal to THAT, in the band, was Axl.  You had two, charismatic, front facing juggernauts to sell to the masses.  Izzy was def a "fade into the background" kinda guy, when on stage.  Not that he wasn't THERE..but he wasn't the focus.

I also think someone such as Bucket more than replaced the skill level of Slash... but thats irrelevant to me when it comes to terms of impact.

Slash is THE guy who helped shaped the songs, image and legacy of the band in the lead guitar spot we are discussing here.

Oh, for sure.  He was another face of the band, and his technical ability and playing CERTAINLY added shape to the music.  I have respect for his contributions, for sure.

I'm not saying losing him at that point wouldn't have been a blow.  It definitely would have had wide ranging effects, esp short term.

I just think Izzy's departure, ultimately, had effects that lasted (have lasted) MUCH longer.  They weren't the same KINDS of effects, more obvious ones...but I think they were "deeper" in nature, if you get my meaning.

[pilferk]

I always say we have 'Coma' and 'Locomotive', the only 2 Rose/Slash compositions.  Great tunes, both.  Both in my top 10, probably.  Top 12, perhaps.

I'd also throw in 'Estranged', because I think Slash got bent right over on the lack of a songwriting credit on that one.  That's a top 5 song for me.

But what's the common denominator?  All longer, epic, type songs.  Can you make a whole album of that?

I love Coma, and Estranged.

Locomotive is not nearly in the same class, for me.

And if you think Slash got bent over on Estranged....I suspect similar treatment for Izzy on Coma.  I suspect he had a large hand in arranging and "incorporating" the various ideas being thrown out.  I say that because I notice very "Izzy like" things in the actual song structure.  Maybe it was just familiarity breeding replication...I don't know.  But I see traces....

[Princess Leia]

Brain? Robin? Don?t make me laugh. Axl let Izzy and Slash go. These 2 guys were the heart and soul of GN?R along side Axl. If he didn?t care about those 2 leaving he doesn?t care about anyone.

I'm sorry but...LET Izzy leave?

I'm not sure what you think Axl could have done to stop him, honestly, that you didn't think was done at the time.

Izzy wanted out...away from the fame, from the touring, from the limelight, and from the pressure.  Probably NEEDED to get out, for his own mental health/sanity.

How do you MAKE someone like that stay?

We can argue til we're blue in the face about Slash....who let who go, how, and why, I guess.

But with Izzy?  There was no "letting", "allowing", etc there.

Izzy made his own decision and nobody was changing his mind.

Izzy wanted to leave, Slash wanted to leave. The question is why?  Lets say for the sake of argument that the working environment was less than ideal for them for many and different reasons. Ok how about disccussing the problems together? Coming up with solutions? I?ve never seen Axl concerned. I never read in an interview or press release that he has tried really hard to listen to other peoples problems, opinions, ideas or issues regarding the band or themselves. All I saw was blame being spread from one side to the other. It doesn't look like Axl as a leader of the band fought hard to keep the band together and make things work for everyone envoled.

If you want, we can fastforward to the issue with Bumblefoot now. Does it look like Axl care that this guy left? Did look like he care when Brain and others left? Axl just moves to find another replacement and that?s it.

You don?t like it here? You wanna leave? fine, don?t let the door hit you on your way out. I?ll find another guy to do the job

[JAEBALL]

Brain? Robin? Don?t make me laugh. Axl let Izzy and Slash go. These 2 guys were the heart and soul of GN?R along side Axl. If he didn?t care about those 2 leaving he doesn?t care about anyone.

I'm sorry but...LET Izzy leave?

I'm not sure what you think Axl could have done to stop him, honestly, that you didn't think was done at the time.

Izzy wanted out...away from the fame, from the touring, from the limelight, and from the pressure.  Probably NEEDED to get out, for his own mental health/sanity.

How do you MAKE someone like that stay?

We can argue til we're blue in the face about Slash....who let who go, how, and why, I guess.

But with Izzy?  There was no "letting", "allowing", etc there.

Izzy made his own decision and nobody was changing his mind.

Izzy wanted to leave, Slash wanted to leave. The question is why?  Lets say for the sake of argument that the working environment was less than ideal for them for many and different reasons. Ok how about disccussing the problems together? Coming up with solutions? I?ve never seen Axl concerned. I never read in an interview or press release that he has tried really hard to listen to other peoples problems, opinions, ideas or issues regarding the band or themselves. All I saw was blame being spread from one side to the other. It doesn't look like Axl as a leader of the band fought hard to keep the band together and make things work for everyone envoled.

If you want, we can fastforward to the issue with Bumblefoot now. Does it look like Axl care that this guy left? Did look like he care when Brain and others left? Axl just moves to find another replacement and that?s it.

You don?t like it here? You wanna leave? fine, don?t let the door hit you on your way out. I?ll find another guy to do the job

As far as Slash, Duff, Izzy and Axl I'd say ALL parties were not willing to bend in any way to make things work with the other sides... some might disagree, I don't know... they obviously did not communicate well.

and by all accounts when it comes to Ron... he has annoyed enough people around Axl to the point where he wouldn't care if he walked away

[D-GenerationX]

Izzy wanted to leave, Slash wanted to leave. The question is why?  Lets say for the sake of argument that the working environment was less than ideal for them for many and different reasons. Ok how about disccussing the problems together? Coming up with solutions? I?ve never seen Axl concerned. I never read in an interview or press release that he has tried really hard to listen to other peoples problems, opinions, ideas or issues regarding the band or themselves. All I saw was blame being spread from one side to the other. It doesn't look like Axl as a leader of the band fought hard to keep the band together and make things work for everyone envoled.

If you want, we can fastforward to the issue with Bumblefoot now. Does it look like Axl care that this guy left? Did look like he care when Brain and others left? Axl just moves to find another replacement and that?s it.

You don?t like it here? You wanna leave? fine, don?t let the door hit you on your way out. I?ll find another guy to do the job.

Likely a bit too harshly worded for some, but I think there is validity here.

Although I fully expect you to be told about long phone conversations and all this pleading Axl did with Izzy.  Slash?  Well, if there's a good spin, we'll find it.

[D-GenerationX]

As far as Slash, Duff, Izzy and Axl I'd say ALL parties were not willing to bend in any way to make things work with the other sides... some might disagree, I don't know... they obviously did not communicate well.

Ah, but what's the common denominator?

[jarmo]

Izzy wanted to leave, Slash wanted to leave. The question is why?  Lets say for the sake of argument that the working environment was less than ideal for them for many and different reasons. Ok how about disccussing the problems together? Coming up with solutions?

Why do you assume they didn't try?
The rest of your post is about how you didn't see something it can't exist.

You're buying the history that you read in Slash's book. Not surprising.

If you want, we can fastforward to the issue with Bumblefoot now. Does it look like Axl care that this guy left? Did look like he care when Brain and others left? Axl just moves to find another replacement and that?s it.

Jeez. What do you think is the answer then? Axl crying on Oprah about the people quitting?

On one hand people are criticizing him for talking about the old band and former members. And here you are saying he doesn't care if members quit.




/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

You're buying the history that you read in Slash's book. Not surprising.

We could always compare it to Axl's book.  You know, get both sides.

You know, the Duffman made some claims in his book too, as I recall.  We just looking the other way on that now, given the reconciliation?

[mortismurphy]

Duff is actually more explicit on the 'contract thing'. He says he was presented with it at a show in Barcelona and told, 'Axl would not go on stage' if he did not sign it. Slash omits the episode. Izzy by the way demolished Axl in an interview for a well known UK magazine in the early '00s.

[pilferk]

Brain? Robin? Don?t make me laugh. Axl let Izzy and Slash go. These 2 guys were the heart and soul of GN?R along side Axl. If he didn?t care about those 2 leaving he doesn?t care about anyone.

I'm sorry but...LET Izzy leave?

I'm not sure what you think Axl could have done to stop him, honestly, that you didn't think was done at the time.

Izzy wanted out...away from the fame, from the touring, from the limelight, and from the pressure.  Probably NEEDED to get out, for his own mental health/sanity.

How do you MAKE someone like that stay?

We can argue til we're blue in the face about Slash....who let who go, how, and why, I guess.

But with Izzy?  There was no "letting", "allowing", etc there.

Izzy made his own decision and nobody was changing his mind.

Izzy wanted to leave, Slash wanted to leave. The question is why?  Lets say for the sake of argument that the working environment was less than ideal for them for many and different reasons. Ok how about disccussing the problems together? Coming up with solutions? I?ve never seen Axl concerned. I never read in an interview or press release that he has tried really hard to listen to other peoples problems, opinions, ideas or issues regarding the band or themselves. All I saw was blame being spread from one side to the other. It doesn't look like Axl as a leader of the band fought hard to keep the band together and make things work for everyone envoled.

If you want, we can fastforward to the issue with Bumblefoot now. Does it look like Axl care that this guy left? Did look like he care when Brain and others left? Axl just moves to find another replacement and that?s it.

You don?t like it here? You wanna leave? fine, don?t let the door hit you on your way out. I?ll find another guy to do the job

Well, its good that we dont have to guess when it comes to izzy. Hes made comments, specifically, about why he left.

None of them point to the working relationship with Axl...or slash...or anyone else in the band, specifically.

He does talk about the drug use, and addiction issues, and how out of control it all was.

But more of those comments target the general, overall, stress and pressure and touring environment, and how he just didnt want to live the life of a famous person anymore. How he just couldnt take the grind and the craziness. How do you change things that are part and parcel of the job?

He says he loved all the guys, loved working with them...but he just had to change.

Im not sure how, as axl, slash, or odin himself, you adress that. He wanted out...just couldnt take it anymore.

I realize that reality might not fit the narrative you want to craft..but those are izzy's own words. How can you discount them so completely?

[D-GenerationX]

Duff is actually more explicit on the 'contract thing'. He says he was presented with it at a show in Barcelona and told, 'Axl would not go on stage' if he did not sign it. Slash omits the episode. Izzy by the way demolished Axl in an interview for a well known UK magazine in the early '00s.

Is that the one where he's talking about hearing Axl flipping through pages of notes on the phone addressing past grievances?

[pilferk]

Duff is actually more explicit on the 'contract thing'. He says he was presented with it at a show in Barcelona and told, 'Axl would not go on stage' if he did not sign it. Slash omits the episode. Izzy by the way demolished Axl in an interview for a well known UK magazine in the early '00s.

Is that the one where he's talking about hearing Axl flipping through pages of notes on the phone addressing past grievances?

See, if you listen to that interview (assuming we are thinking of the same one)..izzy is almost laughing through that whole segment. Not like...laughing bacuase hes joking. But laughing because he finds it so matter of factly funny.

I dont see that as izzy trashing axl....in any part of that interview (axl may disagree). Just like in another interview he talks about stress being a primary reason for departure, and gives an example of an axl interaction as anecdotal proof. Its not particularly egregious stuff, either...just one example of the normal abnormal amount of stress and pressure they were under during the uyi days.

[jarmo]

You know, the Duffman made some claims in his book too, as I recall.  We just looking the other way on that now, given the reconciliation?

Duff's book starts with an important message.  





/jarmo

[mortismurphy]

Duff is actually more explicit on the 'contract thing'. He says he was presented with it at a show in Barcelona and told, 'Axl would not go on stage' if he did not sign it. Slash omits the episode. Izzy by the way demolished Axl in an interview for a well known UK magazine in the early '00s.

Is that the one where he's talking about hearing Axl flipping through pages of notes on the phone addressing past grievances?

It is worse than that. Jarmo would probably delete it if I posted it but Izzy basically calls Axl a nerd at school whose ego went gargantuan. He also said the new band were ''obviously not Guns N' Roses'.

[Princess Leia]

Duff is actually more explicit on the 'contract thing'. He says he was presented with it at a show in Barcelona and told, 'Axl would not go on stage' if he did not sign it. Slash omits the episode. Izzy by the way demolished Axl in an interview for a well known UK magazine in the early '00s.

Yes Izzy demolished Axl in that interview with Classic Rock. And Axl demolished izzy and Adler in a 1992 RIP magazine interview. But my question is why things got to that point?

The only time I saw Axl caring about bands issues was during the 1989 RS shows. But beyond that public rant to get their attention because there was a serious problem that they needed to address as a band.Then the next day like here nothing happened. And never again Axl seemed concerned and worried about his band mates.

[mortismurphy]

They never used to have band meetings. Axl went into his little world and the others, into deep substance abuse. The band just splintered. I believe the roots of collapse can be traced much earlier than the Illusion era. I think it began when they had that sojourn after the Appetite tour, around 1989-90. If they were smarter and less loaded, they would have continued to hang out and jam. The instant money did not help but even millionaires can rent a rehearsal space and jam occasionally.