Goodbye Ron (???)

[pilferk]

Brain? Robin? Don?t make me laugh. Axl let Izzy and Slash go. These 2 guys were the heart and soul of GN?R along side Axl. If he didn?t care about those 2 leaving he doesn?t care about anyone.

I'm sorry but...LET Izzy leave?

I'm not sure what you think Axl could have done to stop him, honestly, that you didn't think was done at the time.

Izzy wanted out...away from the fame, from the touring, from the limelight, and from the pressure.  Probably NEEDED to get out, for his own mental health/sanity.

How do you MAKE someone like that stay?

We can argue til we're blue in the face about Slash....who let who go, how, and why, I guess.

But with Izzy?  There was no "letting", "allowing", etc there.

Izzy made his own decision and nobody was changing his mind.

[pilferk]

Leia, he cared about Izzy and Slash leaving very much.......

not that anyone cares but there are two period's of Gnr to me..
87-91 (Izzy departure)
92-2015 (Axl era)

I'm of the same mind as you are.  To me, Izzy's departure was the real big blow, both creatively and chemistry-wise.  Always has been.

[sky dog]

yep....the dynamics of the band changed dramatically with Izzy's departure.

[JAEBALL]

He was the key cog in the writing of all of GNR's famous songs...

as far as performance... his impact is not nearly the same as others in the band .. imo

[jarmo]

But its all been bad.

Your generalizations are funny. Then when pressed about it, you manage to admit it's not all black. There's different shades of grey.

You point out that the band has a "track record" of canceling shows. Amusing considering they canceled shows in the 1980s and 1990s as well. Your keep going on and on about how mismanaged the band has been since the old band disbanded. Yet, I've yet to see one example of you pointing out that the old band probably weren't better managed back then. People quit, there were canceled shows, riots etc. Why is it that the first time the band toured Europe for real was in 1992? Shouldn't a great management made sure the hottest band in the world had a proper world tour in 1988-89?


All this because "it's not GN'R".... Not even the old band was perfect.  

Brain? Robin? Don´t make me laugh. Axl let Izzy and Slash go. These 2 guys were the heart and soul of GN´R along side Axl. If he didn´t care about those 2 leaving he doesn´t care about anyone.

Funny how you remember things the way you want to remember. He "let them go"? What's the alternative?
He doesn't care?

"Don't make me laugh" says a lot about where your bias lies....


/jarmo

[JAEBALL]

But its all been bad.

Your generalizations are funny. Then when pressed about it, you manage to admit it's not all black. There's different shades of grey.

You point out that the band has a "track record" of canceling shows. Amusing considering they canceled shows in the 1980s and 1990s as well. Your keep going on and on about how mismanaged the band has been since the old band disbanded. Yet, I've yet to see one example of you pointing out that the old band probably weren't better managed back then. People quit, there were canceled shows, riots etc. Why is it that the first time the band toured Europe for real was in 1992? Shouldn't a great management made sure the hottest band in the world had a proper world tour in 1988-89?


All this because "it's not GN'R".... Not even the old band was perfect.  

Brain? Robin? Don?t make me laugh. Axl let Izzy and Slash go. These 2 guys were the heart and soul of GN?R along side Axl. If he didn?t care about those 2 leaving he doesn?t care about anyone.

Funny how you remember things the way you want to remember. He "let them go"? What's the alternative?
He doesn't care?





/jarmo

Wrong... the old band was perfect 

minus the crackhead drummer

[pilferk]

He was the key cog in the writing of all of GNR's famous songs...

as far as performance... his impact is not nearly the same as others in the band .. imo

On stage? Yeah...he was not the most technically gifted live performer in the band, or the most charismatic, or the most "forward facing".  But don't underestimate what he DID bring to the table, on stage (and back stage).

And...creatively speaking, I think he was the guy.  I also think he went miles toward "peacekeeping". He was the creative negotiator and the go between. He was the free spirit, and the guy who tended to lighten up the moments.

All my completely unfounded opinion and suspicion, obviously.  But from what I've seen, heard, and read....that's where I land.

It all winds up to: He's not the most obvious, or most recognized of the departures. But I honestly think he was the most impactful.

[jarmo]

Wrong... the old band was perfect 

minus the crackhead drummer

Wrong.
4/5 isn't perfect.  It's 80%




/jarmo

[JAEBALL]

He was the key cog in the writing of all of GNR's famous songs...

as far as performance... his impact is not nearly the same as others in the band .. imo

On stage? Yeah...he was not the most technically gifted live performer in the band, or the most charismatic, or the most "forward facing".  But don't underestimate what he DID bring to the table, on stage (and back stage).

And...creatively speaking, I think he was the guy.  I also think he went miles toward "peacekeeping". He was the creative negotiator and the go between. He was the free spirit, and the guy who tended to lighten up the moments.

All my completely unfounded opinion and suspicion, obviously.  But from what I've seen, heard, and read....that's where I land.

It all winds up to: He's not the most obvious, or most recognized of the departures. But I honestly think he was the most impactful.

Well the proof is in the pudding... Axl and Slash were unable to create any original music together after he left...

But if Slash had left first... do you think the Illusions tour would have just picked up a month later with a new player? I have serious doubts about that


but mostly we are in agreement about Izzy's importance to the band

[LongGoneDay]

I think the success went to their heads, to think they could lose integral members like Steven, Izzy and continue on as GN?R like those members weren?t important.
Hindsight is 20-20, and maybe they felt they tried their hardest at the time, but maybe it would have been in everyone?s best interest to get Steven the help he needed.
Do what needs to be done to keep Izzy on board. Compromise in terms of sound/direction etc, etc.

GN'R died the day Izzy left. They just couldn?t see it because their giant egos were in the way.

[D-GenerationX]

not that anyone cares but there are two period's of Gnr to me..
87-91 (Izzy departure)
92-2015 (Axl era)

I have seen others go this way too, and I see the point made.

You do wonder what they would have done creatively without Izzy.  What does a Rose-Slash-McKagan album sound like?  Not sure.

[JAEBALL]

I think the success went to their heads, to think they could lose integral members like Steven, Izzy and continue on as GN?R like those members weren?t important.
Hindsight is 20-20, and maybe they felt they tried their hardest at the time, but maybe it would have been in everyone?s best interest to get Steven the help he needed.
Do what needs to be done to keep Izzy on board. Compromise in terms of sound/direction etc, etc.

GN'R died the day Izzy left. They just couldn?t see it because their giant egos were in the way.

Agreed.

Any GNR recording without Izzy... isn't a true GNR song... to me anyway ... but I'd feel the same with any of the 4 (sorry, please don't berate me, thats just my opinion)

I don't think there was any way to have convinced him to stay at the time... he wanted no part of Axl's ego and the guitar players drinking and drugs.

[sofine11]

not that anyone cares but there are two period's of Gnr to me..
87-91 (Izzy departure)
92-2015 (Axl era)

I have seen others go this way too, and I see the point made.

You do wonder what they would have done creatively without Izzy.  What does a Rose-Slash-McKagan album sound like?  Not sure.

I've thought about this as well.  The Axl-Penned tracks would likely be great, but Slash's stuff would've been exactly what ended up on the first Snakepit album. Both he and Axl have said as much. All rather 'meh' ideas if you ask me.  

Honestly, it was cool to hear Axl's ideas fully realized on Chinese Democracy.  I know thats not the popular opinion, but dammit, it's sure as hell is mine.  Love that album.  

[JAEBALL]

not that anyone cares but there are two period's of Gnr to me..
87-91 (Izzy departure)
92-2015 (Axl era)

I have seen others go this way too, and I see the point made.

You do wonder what they would have done creatively without Izzy.  What does a Rose-Slash-McKagan album sound like?  Not sure.

Yup, and we will never know.

[pilferk]

Well the proof is in the pudding... Axl and Slash were unable to create any original music together after he left...

But if Slash had left first... do you think the Illusions tour would have just picked up a month later with a new player? I have serious doubts about that


but mostly we are in agreement about Izzy's importance to the band

Short term? It would have been tough to replace Slash going into that tour.....not impossible, but tough. Likely more like a 3 to 6 month hiatus, not 30 days.  Because the PERFORMANCE part of Izzy's "repetoire" was not his largest contribution to the band so Gilby could play the notes easily as well. Slash's technical and performance aspects were HUGE strengths for the band...so those kinds of "obvious" assets are harder to replace. And Slash's departure would have gotten much larger headlines than Izzy's departure got, that's for sure.

Long term? I think Slash would have been easier to replace than Izzy ultimately turned out to be, yeah.  That's my opinion. I mean, it's a bit obvious to say that things would have been very different if Izzy had stayed and Slash left...but there you go.  I'd argue that Slash HAS been adequately replaced (and I'm sure others will loudly disagree), while I'm not sure Izzy ever has....and that's not meant to take away from what Tommy has done.  It's meant more as a kudo to how good Izzy was at certain aspects/things.

I think we might be decending into dead horse territory, though..or at least "Old membership" land.

[D-GenerationX]

Leia, he cared about Izzy and Slash leaving very much.......

not that anyone cares but there are two period's of Gnr to me..
87-91 (Izzy departure)
92-2015 (Axl era)

I'm of the same mind as you are.  To me, Izzy's departure was the real big blow, both creatively and chemistry-wise.  Always has been.

Big time.

But...did you really dig his solo stuff?  I was a huge Izzy backer, but I was underwhelmed.

[JAEBALL]

Well the proof is in the pudding... Axl and Slash were unable to create any original music together after he left...

But if Slash had left first... do you think the Illusions tour would have just picked up a month later with a new player? I have serious doubts about that


but mostly we are in agreement about Izzy's importance to the band

Short term? It would have been tough to replace Slash going into that tour.....not impossible, but tough. Likely more like a 3 to 6 month hiatus, not 30 days.  Because the PERFORMANCE part of Izzy's "repetoire" was not his largest contribution to the band so Gilby could play the notes easily as well. Slash's technical and performance aspects were HUGE strengths for the band...so those kinds of "obvious" assets are harder to replace. And Slash's departure would have gotten much larger headlines than Izzy's departure got, that's for sure.

Long term? I think Slash would have been easier to replace than Izzy ultimately turned out to be, yeah.  That's my opinion. I mean, it's a bit obvious to say that things would have been very different if Izzy had stayed and Slash left...but there you go.  I'd argue that Slash HAS been adequately replaced (and I'm sure others will loudly disagree), while I'm not sure Izzy ever has....and that's not meant to take away from what Tommy has done.  It's meant more as a kudo to how good Izzy was at certain aspects/things.

I think we might be decending into dead horse territory, though..or at least "Old membership" land.

Agreed about dead horse... ha but I don't mind personally

Would a tour of that magnitude received the same financial push if Slash was the one who walked tho?

I also think someone such as Bucket more than replaced the skill level of Slash... but thats irrelevant to me when it comes to terms of impact.

Slash is THE guy who helped shaped the songs, image and legacy of the band in the lead guitar spot we are discussing here.

Jarmo.. I apologize for steering off this way. But as in most threads... they all end up bouncing around.

[JAEBALL]

Leia, he cared about Izzy and Slash leaving very much.......

not that anyone cares but there are two period's of Gnr to me..
87-91 (Izzy departure)
92-2015 (Axl era)

I'm of the same mind as you are.  To me, Izzy's departure was the real big blow, both creatively and chemistry-wise.  Always has been.

Big time.

But...did you really dig his solo stuff?  I was a huge Izzy backer, but I was underwhelmed.

yeah same... and I didnt like Loaded... and Snakepit was awful.... etc etc etc...

but together those guys just .... nailed it... also with VR... which i loved

only Axl could create something great on his own... like with CD... but as the singer... he has impact that the others cant have on their own...

[D-GenerationX]

But its all been bad.

Your generalizations are funny. Then when pressed about it, you manage to admit it's not all black. There's different shades of grey.

This is pretty black. 

Maybe not straight up charcoal, or Wesley Snipes, but not really grey.

[pilferk]

I have seen others go this way too, and I see the point made.

You do wonder what they would have done creatively without Izzy.  What does a Rose-Slash-McKagan album sound like?  Not sure.

All we really have by way of evidence is Symphony for the Devil and Spaghetti incident.....