Goodbye Ron (???)

[CheapJon]

This is really hard on me.  My son Jim looks up to Ron and not knowing his status is causing us a lot of concern. Please someone confirm he is still in the band.  It's not fair my son has to endure these rumors if it isn't true. 

No offense, but I find this sort of creepy and/or hilarious.

So you had a talk with your son; "James, please sit down. I have a serious issue and it involves you as well. I don't know how to tell you this. You should read it for yourself. Ron may be out of GN'R."

"Oh nooo!  Whyyy? How can this happen to us? Just let us knowwwww! We don't deserve this, pa'"

This is a huge matter of concern to you? You should teach your son that life has it's ups and downs. You can't always get what you want. That may be why Ron is leaving.  It's not fair for your son? Life isn't fair.

If it isn't fair for your son, then it isn't fair to me either. Your son is not more important than me or anyone else here. Which makes this sort of fair since we all get the same thing; Nothingness, over and over again.

But if your son looks up to Ron, then it shouldn't matter if Ron is in the band or not. He's not disappearing just because he's going solo or doing other stuff. Your son should be able to still look up to him. Actually, if he leaves, your son should look at him as an even better person as a guy who's standing up for his feelings and beliefs, Not just being a quiet yes man in the shadows. That is a person that your son should look up to. Teach him that.

[D-GenerationX]

Perhaps it was me, but I thought his post was a wind up of sorts.

Anyone else?

[CheapJon]

Perhaps it was me, but I thought his post was a wind up of sorts.

Anyone else?

Based on his/hers earlier posts and history, I think it actually was a sincere post. Or he/she really is a troll just like I first thought reading SD's posts.

It'll be an interresting respoonse either way.

[Sillything]

This is really hard on me.  My son Jim looks up to Ron and not knowing his status is causing us a lot of concern. Please someone confirm he is still in the band.  It's not fair my son has to endure these rumors if it isn't true. 

It's unfair to my unborn son! Please Ron! Let him know!

[GypsySoul]

But, when you look deeper into it, can't the lack of reaction be attributed to the fact that in 8 years we never got a sampling of what Ron might have brought to the band?  By most accounts, he was good with the fans and seemed to be a good egg.  But what do we know about what he might have contributed?

In a word, NO.

Buckethead, Robin, and Brain were all major contributors to CD.
Ask 90% of GNR fans their reaction to any of them not being in GNR anymore and you'll get that same shoulder shrugging.

(The other 10% I'm attributing to their individual die-hard fans)

[D-GenerationX]

But, when you look deeper into it, can't the lack of reaction be attributed to the fact that in 8 years we never got a sampling of what Ron might have brought to the band?  By most accounts, he was good with the fans and seemed to be a good egg.  But what do we know about what he might have contributed?

In a word, NO.

Buckethead, Robin, and Brain were all major contributors to CD.
Ask 90% of GNR fans their reaction to any of them not being in GNR anymore and you'll get that same shoulder shrugging.

(The other 10% I'm attributing to their individual die-hard fans)

Yeah, I could see that.  Fair.

So tweaking my original premise a little bit, maybe the way none of them are ever permitted to talk about the band they are in plays a role there.  Are things different if Axl spent more time putting his new guys over and less time talking about Slash the cancer?  Would fans feel more of a connection if these guys were able to give interviews and actually talk in some meaningful way about the band they are in?

[GypsySoul]

So tweaking my original premise a little bit, maybe the way none of them are ever permitted to talk about the band they are in plays a role there.  Are things different if Axl spent more time putting his new guys over and less time talking about Slash the cancer?  Would fans feel more of a connection if these guys were able to give interviews and actually talk in some meaningful way about the band they are in?

Haven't you ever wondered if Axl might be under a similar type of gag order from "the suits" (in connection to disclosing all the legal/contractual issues with the other band members)?

Going back to the days of Bucket, Robin and Brain, none of the other members seem to have any insights on the behind the scene legal goings on. 

Has Ron or any of them (past or present) asked? 

[Ali]

I was unaware that Bumblefoot stated he and the others were working together on new GNR material.  I thought he had stated the complete opposite ... that the guys have not worked on a single note of new GNR material.

This is correct.

At best, DJ, Ron, and/or Frank did a cut & paste job over top of a song recorded by other dudes during George W. Bush's first term. 

And even that we are supposed to take on faith, because we have about as much proof of that as we do the Loch Ness Monster.

I don't agree with that.  We don't know if it's what you're stating or that new song ideas have been passed around and worked on.  Could very well be the latter.

As far as proof, what proof would we ever have of songs ideas being worked on?  Short of those songs being developed fully and selected for release, we'll never have any idea what all the song ideas that have been worked on.

Ali

[LongGoneDay]

But, when you look deeper into it, can't the lack of reaction be attributed to the fact that in 8 years we never got a sampling of what Ron might have brought to the band?  By most accounts, he was good with the fans and seemed to be a good egg.  But what do we know about what he might have contributed?

In a word, NO.

Buckethead, Robin, and Brain were all major contributors to CD.
Ask 90% of GNR fans their reaction to any of them not being in GNR anymore and you'll get that same shoulder shrugging.

(The other 10% I'm attributing to their individual die-hard fans)

Yeah, I could see that.  Fair.

So tweaking my original premise a little bit, maybe the way none of them are ever permitted to talk about the band they are in plays a role there.  Are things different if Axl spent more time putting his new guys over and less time talking about Slash the cancer?  Would fans feel more of a connection if these guys were able to give interviews and actually talk in some meaningful way about the band they are in?

It really doesn?t matter to most fans what the current members say in an interview, or what Axl says about the current members in an interview.
Do you think anyone outside the GN?R forums is even paying attention?

If Slash does an interview, I may read it because I?m a fan of his music and interested in what he may be doing next.
If DJ Ashba does an interview, I?m not reading it because I?m not a fan of his music and don?t really care what he?s doing next.

Now if GN?R ever releases new material with contributions from DJ and I like what I hear, then yeah, I?ll probably be interested in hearing what he has to say.
Until then, couldn't care less. I could be wrong, but think that?s probably where most fans are at.

Writing and releasing music that people identify with will garner more interest. An interview with a guitarist who?s yet to release a single note of music under the GN?R banner(no fault of his own) talking about maybe writing music and hopefully releasing said music at some point in the future isn?t a very compelling read.

Even if people were listening to the interviews I think they?d have heard more than enough by now because GN?R has been all talk and no action for years.

[GypsySoul]

Another possible scenario as to why Ron, Dj and Frank haven't as yet been writing GNR songs might be copyright and other legal issues.

We all believe from what we were told, that there is at least enough leftover CD material to fill two albums.

Let's use Buckethead as the benchmark since he left the band four years prior to the release of CD.
How much legal maneuvering did it take in those 4 years for GNR to be able to use his legally rightful material?  How much legal maneuvering has been going on before and after the release of CD for GNR to obtain the rights to be able to use any of Buckethead's CDII and CDIII contributions?

Keep in mind that besides all of Buckethead's stuff, there's also Robin and Brain and whoever else has rightful claim to their contributions to the CDII n' III material.

We also have this legal/moral conundrum going on because Axl, Dizzy, Chris, Richard and Tommy also spent decades of their lives contributing to that same material.

Does GNR really want to put themselves in the position again to write new material with someone who can legally/rightfully deny them use of his contributions if he in fact leaves the band as he has implied over the past 4 years?

[D-GenerationX]

I don't agree with that.  We don't know if it's what you're stating or that new song ideas have been passed around and worked on.  Could very well be the latter.

As far as proof, what proof would we ever have of songs ideas being worked on?  Short of those songs being developed fully and selected for release, we'll never have any idea what all the song ideas that have been worked on.

So, back to the usual tap dancing, I suppose.

The lack of proof of anything being done does not confirm that nothing has been done...yet that same lack of proof can be used to argue it has been done (maybe).

Classic.

[D-GenerationX]

It really doesn?t matter to most fans what the current members say in an interview, or what Axl says about the current members in an interview.
Do you think anyone outside the GN?R forums is even paying attention?

Even if people were listening to the interviews I think they?d have heard more than enough by now because GN?R has been all talk and no action for years.

This is all accurate.

In truth, the time for Axl to sell this new band to the general public was like, 6-8 years ago.  That was the time to get out there and talk them up.  Hey, I got this new band and they are great.  Hey, we have this new album coming out I'm really excited about.  Hey, come check us out, I think we're really good.

But, alas...no.  There was no sales pitch presented to the general public.  Instead, we got chats on fan message boards where we talked mostly about a guy out of the fold for 12 years.  Not a real productive use of anyone's time, frankly.

[D-GenerationX]

Another possible scenario as to why Ron, Dj and Frank haven't as yet been writing GNR songs might be copyright and other legal issues.

We all believe from what we were told, that there is at least enough leftover CD material to fill two albums.

Let's use Buckethead as the benchmark since he left the band four years prior to the release of CD.
How much legal maneuvering did it take in those 4 years for GNR to be able to use his legally rightful material?  How much legal maneuvering has been going on before and after the release of CD for GNR to obtain the rights to be able to use any of Buckethead's CDII and CDIII contributions?

Keep in mind that besides all of Buckethead's stuff, there's also Robin and Brain and whoever else has rightful claim to their contributions to the CDII n' III material.

We also have this legal/moral conundrum going on because Axl, Dizzy, Chris, Richard and Tommy also spent decades of their lives contributing to that same material.

Does GNR really want to put themselves in the position again to write new material with someone who can legally/rightfully deny them use of his contributions if he in fact leaves the band as he has implied over the past 4 years?

This is solved in 3 seconds.

If you feel that strongly about the material, but don't want to deal with people out of the fold, you have the current band re-record that material.  It eliminates any legal problems, and actually serves as a way to showcase the people that are actually in your band, currently.  It's an all around win.

The other option is to sit on your hands and not be proactive in the least, and lament how you just can't deal with all of this, as the years go by with nothing happening.

Of those 2 approaches, that latter has been winning out for some time now.  Convenient scapegoats and excuses instead of creative problem solving.

And everyone loses.

[GypsySoul]

This is solved in 3 seconds.

If you feel that strongly about the material, but don't want to deal with people out of the fold, you have the current band re-record that material.  It eliminates any legal problems, and actually serves as a way to showcase the people that are actually in your band, currently.  It's an all around win.

The other option is to sit on your hands and not be proactive in the least, and lament how you just can't deal with all of this, as the years go by with nothing happening.

Of those 2 approaches, that latter has been winning out for some time now.  Convenient scapegoats and excuses instead of creative problem solving.

And everyone loses.

isn't Option#1 sort of what they did with CD?

Are you saying that if Buckethead wrote a killer riff for a song included on CDII, as long as Bumblefoot re-records that riff then Buckethead has no legal rights to his material?? 

[D-GenerationX]

Are you saying that if Buckethead wrote a killer riff for a song included on CDII, as long as Bumblefoot re-records that riff then Buckethead has no legal rights to his material?? 

Let me clarify.  I thought you were implying that the hold up might be Bucket (or any of the ones who left) not wanting their performance on a new album.  No?

Accepting that premise, I was suggesting the way around that would be have Bucket's part re-recorded by someone in the fold now.   He is still listed as a writer, if he is the one who wrote it.  But if its his appearance on future albums that's a problem, let's eliminate that problem.

Now, full disclosure, while I am accepting your premise for the purposes of this conversation, I don't believe its the case.  I believe now, as I have believed for some time, that the complete lack of progress has to do with Axl's disinterest (at best), or his fear and self doubt (at worst).

But, if your premise was in fact accurate, I would think that's a way to try and work around it and move things forward.  That's what I'm all about.  I'm all about moving this all forward and that is how I approach everything.  I never, ever, EVER approach from a starting point of here's why its not Axl's fault and you have some god damn balls questioning him on any of it. 

I have no time for that routine.  I'm not saying that's you, specifically.  But let's be honest, that sentiment is out there.

[GypsySoul]

In truth, the time for Axl to sell this new band to the general public was like, 6-8 years ago.  That was the time to get out there and talk them up.  Hey, I got this new band and they are great.  Hey, we have this new album coming out I'm really excited about.  Hey, come check us out, I think we're really good.

But, alas...no.  There was no sales pitch presented to the general public.  Instead, we got chats on fan message boards where we talked mostly about a guy out of the fold for 12 years.  Not a real productive use of anyone's time, frankly.

What you said isn't true.   First off, how often did Axl put himself out there over his entire career? Not often.

Early on when Ron joined the band and he was doing radio interviews, Axl called into the shows.

And how many pictures are out there of Axl wearing stuff from Dj's clothing line?  And Dj was right there with Axl when they did that Eddie Trunk show tv interview.

Any gesture on Axl's part is going to go viral and no matter who or what the original focus of the interview or whatever is, once Axl is part of it, in everyone's mind, love him or hate him, it's going to be all about Axl.

[D-GenerationX]

What you said isn't true.   First off, how often did Axl put himself out there over his entire career? Not often.

Yeah, but this was a new day.  This was re-launching a whole new thing from the ground up.

Remember the Loder interview, "how do you re-build something that was so big?".  Well, I don't claim to have the answer to that, but I can tell you that it was incumbent on Axl to really bust his ass if he truly wanted to see this succeed.  I can't see an argument he really busted his ass to give it the best chance at success.

But, that's over and done with and can't be fixed now.  Unfortunately.

[GypsySoul]

Are you saying that if Buckethead wrote a killer riff for a song included on CDII, as long as Bumblefoot re-records that riff then Buckethead has no legal rights to his material?? 

Let me clarify.  I thought you were implying that the hold up might be Bucket (or any of the ones who left) not wanting their performance on a new album.  No?

No.  I'm talking about copyrights of material Buckethead wrote that are part of the songs that include material written by Axl, Dizzy, Chris, Richard, Tommy, Robin and Brain that would be included on an album recorded (or re-recorded) by Axl, Dizzy, Chris, Richard, Tommy, Ron and Frank.

Doesn't GNR need legal permission from Buckethead to use what he wrote even though seven other people wrote part of that same song?

[D-GenerationX]

No.  I'm talking about copyrights of material Buckethead wrote that are part of the songs that include material written by Axl, Dizzy, Chris, Richard, Tommy, Robin and Brain that would be included on an album recorded (or re-recorded) by Axl, Dizzy, Chris, Richard, Tommy, Ron and Frank.

Doesn't GNR need legal permission from Buckethead to use what he wrote even though seven other people wrote part of that same song?

Ah.  I see.

Well, if that's the case, then yeah...you have to jettison that song.  Is there some other way forward?  If he won't budge, he won't budge. 

There is no reasonable argument that your time is better spent pouting over it and doing nothing rather than looking at other options.

And at what point do your current bandmates start to wonder how little Axl actually thinks of you that the only way forward he sees is releasing stuff from a guy that is gone 10 years and wants nothing to do with the operation?  They are only human.  Its crossed their minds, I assure you.

[GypsySoul]

Yeah, but this was a new day.  This was re-launching a whole new thing from the ground up.

But GNR was re-re-launched twice since then and as I pointed out, whenever Axl does put himself out there, the focus is going to be totally and completely on him.

Just like with Dj sitting next to Axl during that Trunk show.  Even Axl joked to Dj at the end about Dj being so quiet.