The "1996 GN'R album"

[JAEBALL]

That said, I can see why Slash had an aversion to working with him.  He basically personified Slash's beef with Axl, as he was brought in without Slash's approval, while Slash was perfectly content having Gilby serve as his rhythm guitarist.  In other words, even after reading Slash's book, it seems like Slash had his mind made up about Paul before they even stepped in a room together to try to write some music, particularly after the Sympathy For The Devil incident.  Not exactly Paul's fault.  He was just doing what his buddy Axl asked IMO.

True.  But three things strike me.

1) Let's make you Paul.  You see that your inclusion is not exactly welcomed with open arms.  You don't talk to Axl about that?

2) Slash says he wants Gilby.  Axl is not onboard.  Axl says he wants Paul.  Slash is not onboard.  Isn't the common sense thing to remove both guys from the equation?  Logically, if you pick either man, you know one person will be unhappy.  Jarmo likes to tell us over and over again that it was wrong for Slash to try and force Gilby on Axl...but Axl forcing Paul on Slash is cool.  What's the difference?

3) Your theory about Paul being the personification of things going to shit between Axl and Slash is valid, I think.  But I think Paul loses whatever innocent bystander role in this power struggle when we have Matt Sorum telling us that Paul is in the studio running Slash down.  I think once you start doing that, you are not an innocent bystander.  You are a person with a partisan agenda.

As for Paul's work on CD, yeah, it was good.  But I often see things ina  cost benefit analysis way.  Was what he brought to the table THAT amazing that it was worth all the other bullshit?  Honestly, I'd say no.  In other words, I'm not sure he was the dealbreaker that he has pretty much wound up being.  A big reason the band broke up and we wound up waiting 15 years for an album was Axl's insistence Paul be in the fold.  Worth it?

all great points...

you know whats funny...if Paul huge sat down at my desk right now..i probably wouldnt have any clue as to who he is... there are not a lot of pics of him out there

[sofine11]

That said, I can see why Slash had an aversion to working with him.  He basically personified Slash's beef with Axl, as he was brought in without Slash's approval, while Slash was perfectly content having Gilby serve as his rhythm guitarist.  In other words, even after reading Slash's book, it seems like Slash had his mind made up about Paul before they even stepped in a room together to try to write some music, particularly after the Sympathy For The Devil incident.  Not exactly Paul's fault.  He was just doing what his buddy Axl asked IMO.

True.  But three things strike me.

1) Let's make you Paul.  You see that your inclusion is not exactly welcomed with open arms.  You don't talk to Axl about that?

2) Slash says he wants Gilby.  Axl is not onboard.  Axl says he wants Paul.  Slash is not onboard.  Isn't the common sense thing to remove both guys from the equation?  Logically, if you pick either man, you know one person will be unhappy.  Jarmo likes to tell us over and over again that it was wrong for Slash to try and force Gilby on Axl...but Axl forcing Paul on Slash is cool.  What's the difference?

3) Your theory about Paul being the personification of things going to shit between Axl and Slash is valid, I think.  But I think Paul loses whatever innocent bystander role in this power struggle when we have Matt Sorum telling us that Paul is in the studio running Slash down.  I think once you start doing that, you are not an innocent bystander.  You are a person with a partisan agenda.

I think Slash's reaction to Paul's initial inclusion (forced or not) had more to do with Axl & Slash's relationship than it did with Paul himself.  Again, I agree that Axl should have been more democratic about Paul's inclusion, but in the end that's gotta be on Axl, not Paul.

The Paul slagging Slash thing happened in June of 1997, which was literally the day Matt was fired.  If you go on youtube, while Slash was on tour with Snakepit in '95, whenever he was asked about GNR he would bring Paul up saying, verbatim, "I hate that guy." before going into a tirade about him and Axl.  If you're Paul, who's just trying to help at Axl's behest, that can't be fun to hear on MTV.  Add a couple more years of behind to scenes drama, leading to Slash's departure in late '96, we really have to put into context exactly what Paul was saying and why when Matt went off on him.  Matt didn't bother to go into details, only that Paul & Axl were dissing Slash.

Edit: And I feel like Matt told that story to anyone who would listen in the early 00's, likely to gain favor with Slash, who basically held the rest of Matt's career in the palm of his hand with "The Project" that was then being put together that would later become VR.  Other than the roaring (albeit brief) success he achieved as Baron Von Storm, we ain't heard shit from Matt since VR broke up in early '08, which kind of proves that without some association to a real live Gunner(s), it's all quiet on the western front for Mr. Sorum.

[D-GenerationX]

I think Slash's reaction to Paul's initial inclusion (forced or not) had more to do with Axl & Slash's relationship than it did with Paul himself.  Again, I agree that Axl should have been more democratic about Paul's inclusion, but in the end that's gotta be on Axl, not Paul.

Oh, no doubt. 

I'm just thinking if I'm Paul, you have to feel the chilly reception in the room.  I'm likely pulling my buddy Axl aside at that point and asking him if he truly thinks this might work.  Or give me some assurances he'll smooth it over.

The Paul slagging Slash thing happened in June of 1997, which was literally the day Matt was fired.  If you go on youtube, while Slash was on tour with Snakepit in '95, whenever he was asked about GNR he would bring Paul up saying, verbatim, "I hate that guy." before going into a tirade about him and Axl.  If you're Paul, who's just trying to help at Axl's behest, that can't be fun to hear on MTV.  Add a couple more years of behind to scenes drama, leading to Slash's departure in late '96, we really have to put into context exactly what Paul was saying and why when Matt went off on him.  Matt didn't bother to go into details, only that Paul & Axl were dissing Slash.

Yeah, fair point.

[rebelhipi]

The band had no second guitar player. They were supposed to be a one guitar band because Slash wanted it that way?

Regarding Paul Tobias Axl said:

?The public gets a different story from the other guys ? Slash, Duff, Matt - who have their own agendas. The original intentions between Paul and myself were that Paul was going to help me for as long as it took to get this thing together in whatever capacity that he could help me in. So when he first was brought into this, he was brought in as a writer to work with Slash. At the time those guys never suggested one name. Nobody else. Ever.

Paul was one of the best people we knew who was both available and capable of complimenting Slash?s style. You could bring in a better guitar player than Paul. You could bring in a monster. I tried putting Zakk Wylde with Slash and that didn?t work. It brought out some interesting things in Slash but it was a different approach that ended up being overpowering and didn?t bring out the best in Slash. It brought out some interesting things and it would?ve worked to do some songs. But Paul was only interested in complimenting Slash, laying down a foundation of a riff or something. That would accent or encourage Slash's lead playing. Now whether or not Paul was going to be officially on the album or on the tour that really wasn?t an actual consideration at the time. It was in the air as a possibility but Paul was a friend trying to help us and he had a huge respect for Slash. He is and this is the bottom line a good man and that's the reality behind things. That doesn't change what took place with old Guns. I feel that some of the recordings we did in that limited amount of time had some of the best playing that Slash had done at least since Illusions. I was there. I know what I heard and it was pretty exciting.?

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=82




Also, why was Slash playing Izzy's parts on the Use Your Illusion albums? If you attack someone for doubling your guitar parts, why did he do the same on those albums?

What do you mean he didn't play on "...Illusion" albums?!

"I had to double guitars up for him on most of it. He didn't play very much."

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=16





/jarmo

This and the next question about slash sets the record pretty much straight.

[jarmo]

As for Paul's work on CD, yeah, it was good.  But I often see things ina  cost benefit analysis way.  Was what he brought to the table THAT amazing that it was worth all the other bullshit?  Honestly, I'd say no.  In other words, I'm not sure he was the dealbreaker that he has pretty much wound up being.  A big reason the band broke up and we wound up waiting 15 years for an album was Axl's insistence Paul be in the fold.  Worth it?

Well, you're diminishing his contribution.

He was there pretty much from 1994 to 2002. He co-wrote several tracks. Guitar players came and went and came back. Paul stayed, probably until his job was done.
So was it amazing that he was there keeping the band "alive" and "active"? Yes it was.


Regarding the whole idea about why not Gilby. Maybe Axl thought Paul was a better fit. And that whatever reason(s) Slash had for hating the guy were just Slash being Slash and weren't good enough reasons? In addition, the alternatives weren't better.

If you're the boss in your own mind and somebody else tells you "work with this guy", you'll say "no".

Also, was it a coincidence that Gilby was part of Snakepit?





/jarmo

[JAEBALL]

As for Paul's work on CD, yeah, it was good.  But I often see things ina  cost benefit analysis way.  Was what he brought to the table THAT amazing that it was worth all the other bullshit?  Honestly, I'd say no.  In other words, I'm not sure he was the dealbreaker that he has pretty much wound up being.  A big reason the band broke up and we wound up waiting 15 years for an album was Axl's insistence Paul be in the fold.  Worth it?

Well, you're diminishing his contribution.

He was there pretty much from 1994 to 2002. He co-wrote several tracks. Guitar players came and went and came back. Paul stayed, probably until his job was done.
So was it amazing that he was there keeping the band "alive" and "active"? Yes it was.


Regarding the whole idea about why not Gilby. Maybe Axl thought Paul was a better fit. And that whatever reason(s) Slash had for hating the guy were just Slash being Slash and weren't good enough reasons? In addition, the alternatives weren't better.

If you're the boss in your own mind and somebody else tells you "work with this guy", you'll say "no".

Also, was it a coincidence that Gilby was part of Snakepit?





/jarmo

you cant have it both ways with this.... whether slash was justified in hating him is not the point...

he didnt want him, and axl didnt want gilby, the reasons behind it are irrelevant

if they were working in a functional manner they would have worked it out making a decision best for all

but its hard to make those kind of decisions when people are never in the same room at the same time to talk things out, again all involved were guilty of that as well

[D-GenerationX]

you cant have it both ways with this

Hahaha.  Yeah, good luck with all that.

.... whether slash was justified in hating him is not the point...

he didnt want him, and axl didnt want gilby, the reasons behind it are irrelevant

if they were working in a functional manner they would have worked it out making a decision best for all

but its hard to make those kind of decisions when people are never in the same room at the same time to talk things out, again all involved were guilty of that as well

Yep.

[jarmo]

you cant have it both ways with this.... whether slash was justified in hating him is not the point...

he didnt want him, and axl didnt want gilby, the reasons behind it are irrelevant

Do you believe in this?

Imagine your better half tells you that you're going on holidays to Alaska. Then you suggest going to Hawaii instead. She says "no, Alaska!" and you tell her you think Hawaii is better because you can't stand the cold. Is it automatically ok for her to say "no" because it was your idea? And that you need to come up with a new idea, which probably isn't as good as your original idea?

So you end up in Iowa instead.....


Slash probably thought Axl was in his band, when in reality he had joined Axl and Izzy's band...



/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

Knock it off, Jarmo.

In 1994, Axl, Slash, and Duff were all on equal footing in the band.

In mafia terms, they were the made guys.

[rebelhipi]

Knock it off, Jarmo.

In 1994, Axl, Slash, and Duff were all on equal footing in the band.

In mafia terms, they were the made guys.

Exept that axl owned the rights to the band in 1994 slash, duff and the others were paid By the band=axl

[D-GenerationX]

Knock it off, Jarmo.

In 1994, Axl, Slash, and Duff were all on equal footing in the band.

In mafia terms, they were the made guys.

Exept that axl owned the rights to the band in 1994 slash, duff and the others were paid By the band=axl

Yeah, due to that half ass contract he forced them to sign under duress / didn't force them to sign under duress / no contract was ever signed, what are you talking about?

Gotta love GNR history.  Its all dependent on who you like in the present, it seems.

[JAEBALL]

Slash probably thought Axl was in his band, when in reality he had joined Axl and Izzy's band...




/jarmo
[/quote]

lol you make me laugh... i respect ur opinion and ur loyalty to "gnr" but quotes like this one just make me scratch my head

why some people cant step out and see things rationally and not take sides like this is high school ...

you make a great attorney... but come on...its just like Axl getting mad at Slash for trying "to take over the band" ..... yeah and what did you want to do Axl?

give me a break... we can admit Slash's fault in everything...but you cant do the same with Axl

and since he claims he never wanted the guys to leave "his" band... why did he force them in to becoming hired hands? wait i know the answer... because he knew what it took to make the band go forward....

i know ur his buddy... but maybe just maybe axl has made a mistake here and there down the line in regards to how he conducted business...you can always argue till ur blue in the face that he did what he felt is right... and yes thats a great last resort


and lastly, the fact that you don't show the same hatred for Duff and izzy who have done and said the same shit about axl over the years, just proves that you don't form any opinion that goes against Axls ways of thinking

since he doesn't hate them... you don't either (at least this is what you portray on this site)

he hates slash... so then you do too... even tho i venture to guess you never met the man

i know ive gone off the rails here a little bit....my overall point is still the same... i know slash handled things badly in those last years,and i also think hes said some foolish things in the press since then, anybody with some common sense can see that, but its pretty easy to see Axl's fault too , they are guilty of alot of the same things



saying that Slash joined their band completely undermines what he and Duff did to create GNR

[JAEBALL]

Knock it off, Jarmo.

In 1994, Axl, Slash, and Duff were all on equal footing in the band.

In mafia terms, they were the made guys.

Exept that axl owned the rights to the band in 1994 slash, duff and the others were paid By the band=axl

Yeah, due to that half ass contract he forced them to sign under duress / didn't force them to sign under duress / no contract was ever signed, what are you talking about?

Gotta love GNR history.  Its all dependent on who you like in the present, it seems.

It certainly is filled with drama and perfect for message boards.....

But I have never met any of these people, don't know them personally... so I don't take sides in their bitchy drama....
Im just a fan of the output, I don't understand why fans, people etc take sides in their stupid 20 year fight

[rebelhipi]

Knock it off, Jarmo.

In 1994, Axl, Slash, and Duff were all on equal footing in the band.

In mafia terms, they were the made guys.

Exept that axl owned the rights to the band in 1994 slash, duff and the others were paid By the band=axl

Yeah, due to that half ass contract he forced them to sign under duress / didn't force them to sign under duress / no contract was ever signed, what are you talking about?

Gotta love GNR history.  Its all dependent on who you like in the present, it seems.

There was a contract about the name and what happens if axl quits, slash quits, duff quits. that kind of stuff whish lasted from October 1992 until October 1995 where a new different one was made.

[D-GenerationX]

I don't have a scintilla of doubt in my mind that if hell froze over and Axl patched it up with Slash, all these alleged Slash haters would fall right back in line.

And if you have any doubt, as you said, look at Izzy and Duff.  They did some time as persona non grata with a certain segment of the GNR fan community.  Which went right out the fucking window once Axl had them on stage with him.

[JAEBALL]

you cant have it both ways with this.... whether slash was justified in hating him is not the point...

he didnt want him, and axl didnt want gilby, the reasons behind it are irrelevant

Do you believe in this?

Imagine your better half tells you that you're going on holidays to Alaska. Then you suggest going to Hawaii instead. She says "no, Alaska!" and you tell her you think Hawaii is better because you can't stand the cold. Is it automatically ok for her to say "no" because it was your idea? And that you need to come up with a new idea, which probably isn't as good as your original idea?

So you end up in Iowa instead.....





/jarmo

I don't disagree with ur premise

but wouldn't some kind of compromise be better so you dont end up in iowa?

not a knock on Iowa... never been there  

[JAEBALL]

I don't have a scintilla of doubt in my mind that if hell froze over and Axl patched it up with Slash, all these alleged Slash haters would fall right back in line.

And if you have any doubt, as you said, look at Izzy and Duff.  They did some time as persona non grata with a certain segment of the GNR fan community.  Which went right out the fucking window once Axl had them on stage with him.

yup yup and more yup

[jarmo]

Knock it off, Jarmo.

In 1994, Axl, Slash, and Duff were all on equal footing in the band.

In mafia terms, they were the made guys.

Are you denying the fact that Slash joined Guns N' Roses in 1985? I'm not saying he didn't have a part in making GN'R what it became. But, it wasn't his band. Road Crew was his band. Snakepit was his band.
GN'R started with another guitar player. He joined an existing band, although mostly unknown and young band, still an existing band.

But if in your mind the others joined you, it's easy to get the wrong idea along the way.  


And no, I'm not discrediting anybody's work in GN'R. Just stating a fact. It's not an opinion. A fact. If you don't believe me, go check the book Slash's friend made about those days. He joined two bands with Axl in them, Hollywood Rose and then later GN'R...

That's today's history lesson.

I don't have a scintilla of doubt in my mind that if hell froze over and Axl patched it up with Slash, all these alleged Slash haters would fall right back in line.

Haters?

Funny you have to throw that out there. You're quick to point out anything you seem wrong with Axl and GN'R, but if somebody points out that they don't agree with the "widely reported" stories from Slash, they're haters? What does it make you then?

but wouldn't some kind of compromise be better so you dont end up in iowa?

not a knock on Iowa... never been there 

Well the point was that you'll end up in Iowa because you have to give up the two alternatives based on the fact that they were made by the two parties disagreeing. So you need a third option, which might be be worse than the Hawaii one.

Iowa was just an example of something less exotic than Hawaii.





/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

I don't have a scintilla of doubt in my mind that if hell froze over and Axl patched it up with Slash, all these alleged Slash haters would fall right back in line.

Haters?

Funny you have to throw that out there. You're quick to point out anything you seem wrong with Axl and GN'R, but if somebody points out that they don't agree with the "widely reported" stories from Slash, they're haters? What does it make you then?

What I'm saying, in case it was somehow unclear, is that you will think whatever Axl thinks.  And not just you, but the entire segment of fans that think and talk like you do.

I will once again turn to the examples of Izzy and Duff.  Izzy was a fucking traitor that left the band in the lurch.  Duff quit, so fuck him.  That was the opinion for a time.

Is that the current opinion of both men?  Nope.  And why?  Because Axl changed his stance, and you and the others fell in line.

I don't see him doing it with Slash, but I don't believe for one second Axl would patch it up with Slash and you, or anyone else, would continue to piss on the guy.

[D-GenerationX]

There was a contract about the name and what happens if axl quits, slash quits, duff quits. that kind of stuff whish lasted from October 1992 until October 1995 where a new different one was made.

But take a step back from the legalese for a moment.

Do you think the general public at the time saw GNR as Axl's band with a bunch of hired hands?  Be honest.

And just on a human level, should Axl be thinking of these guys and treating these guys like hired help session musicians?  Does that seem logical to you?