The "1996 GN'R album"

[sofine11]

Yeah, I obviously don't subscribe to that kind of strange absolutism.  Even Axl said he may not get everything right with Guns, but he's the only one trying to keep it alive and going.  For the most part, I've always agreed with his assessment there.

Not sure I can go that far.

Taking 10 fucking years to do an album doesn't seem to meet that standard.  I speak in more specifics about the years 2003-2005.  We are talking over 1,000 days there.  A long god damn time doing nothing.

I see what you're saying.  I do have sympathy for the 2000-02 era when Roy Thomas Baker, at the behest of the label, had them re-record every Goddamn thing to make it sound better.  But why after those sessions, it took another 5 damn years to cook the album I will never understand.

I thought the leaks were a good thing at the time, because they represented hope when things looked bleak.

Yes, there is an actual album coming.  Yes, these are songs they have done.  That sort of thing.

But then to hear the finished product after listening to the leaks all that time, there was a feeling of...wait, this took several entire years extra time?

Agreed.  Anything that could be deemed an imperfection in the leaks is nothing that professional mastering couldn't fix.

I know you're unconvinced that whatever else is "in the can" has vocals and whatnot, but my personal belief is that tracks like "The General, Atlas, Soul Monster, Seven, Thyme, etc" certainly exist with finished vocals, but are in the same state as the 2006-07 leaks: Finished, but not mastered, and thus are open to eternal tweaking and fussing, which knowing Axl, can go on forever....and a day. 

[D-GenerationX]

I know you're unconvinced that whatever else is "in the can" has vocals and whatnot, but my personal belief is that tracks like "The General, Atlas, Soul Monster, Seven, Thyme, etc" certainly exist with finished vocals, but are in the same state as the 2006-07 leaks: Finished, but not mastered, and thus are open to eternal tweaking and fussing, which knowing Axl, can go on forever....and a day. 

Oh, I certainly have questions about vocals being done.  Absolutely.

But you might be more right than I am.  That they may be at the same stage of the leaks we got in 2007 of the title track, 'Madagascar' and 'Street Of Dreams'.

This give me an idea for a thread.  My first one here.  That I'm just going to put in this folder and spare Jarmo having to move it, haha.

[sofine11]

I know you're unconvinced that whatever else is "in the can" has vocals and whatnot, but my personal belief is that tracks like "The General, Atlas, Soul Monster, Seven, Thyme, etc" certainly exist with finished vocals, but are in the same state as the 2006-07 leaks: Finished, but not mastered, and thus are open to eternal tweaking and fussing, which knowing Axl, can go on forever....and a day. 

Oh, I certainly have questions about vocals being done.  Absolutely.

But you might be more right than I am.  That they may be at the same stage of the leaks we got in 2007 of the title track, 'Madagascar' and 'Street Of Dreams'.

This give me an idea for a thread.  My first one here.  That I'm just going to put in this folder and spare Jarmo having to move it, haha.

I do, if only because people have discussed listening to "demos" of The General, Atlas Shrugged, Silkworms...And Axl discussed laying down vocals for Soul Monster/Leave Me Alone, not to mention Marco Beltrami talking about working on both that track & Seven, that latter of two he even called his favorite out of the batch of songs he worked on. 

[jarmo]

I call things as I see them.  If roles were reversed on this, I'd be calling out Slash.

It's the action itself that was wrong, not who did it.

So Slash recording all those guitar parts on the Illusions instead of Izzy was wrong?

I said Axl was unprofessional for what he did with the 'Sympathy' single, because he was.

I thought professional "real" bands release music.  Wasn't that your definition?
Maybe the song wouldn't been out if he didn't get it to the point where he thought it was good enough?

Slash, I have no doubt was a bit salty at Axl at the time he did the Snakepit album.  But, Axl said he wasn't interested, so its not like it was totally out of the blue.  He has no real way to forecast that after some time and out of nowhere Axl is going to suddenly be interested.

But, full disclosure, having heard that first Snakepit album...frankly, Axl was right to not be impressed.

Yet another thing where things can be said in a way to paint one person as a victim.
"I'm not interested in recording those songs just like that. They need work". Now let me take out part of that sentence and you have "I'm not interested".
Suddenly it sounds colder than it was.

But I will never accept that a double tracked Slash is not a better option than the bullshit Axl pulled, which is what you are trying to sell here.

Because you prefer his way!
Maybe it's ok for you if he got his way, as long as Axl didn't? Maybe this is your order of business: Democractic band decision > Slash decision > Axl decision.

Slash was double tracked on 'Locomotive', a song most of us love.  Its not like this was without precedent.  And, for the I don't know many times its been said by now, nothing Slash did was a secret no one knew about until release.  Its a ridiculous comparison you are attempting to make here.

The guy plays guitar parts instead of having Izzy featured more prominently on the album. Then when a similar thing is done to him, he gets upset....

Slash never hid what he did.

Izzy: On the last record I wasn't around for the mixes, and when they finished them you really don't hear my guitar at all. It was just a big Les Paul through a Marshall sound on most of the songs.

Whose sound is that? Did the other guitar player tell Izzy to check out those mixes? If he didn't, isn't that hiding? 

So you, in fact, dispute that Axl put Paul on there without telling the others.  That's what you are going with.  Slash actually was told ahead of time and this was all done openly.  Just so we are clear, this is what you are telling me.

I'm telling you that I have  hard time believing that the guitar player in the band, who was pretty involved in the band's business, had no idea Axl was taking Paul into the studio in secret to record guitar parts and Slash had no idea this happened/was going on.

And here we are again.  None of this is accurate.  Axl erased Slash's stuff and put Paul's stuff on there without telling anyone.  End of story.  That is what happened.

What is your source?

I also don't subscribe to the mindset I need to shut down all common sense and rational thinking

So in your common sense and rational thinking ways, Slash, one of three guys in the GN'R partnership, has no idea about what his band is doing at the time?
He even admitted going to the studio one day when he knew Axl would be there. Yet, he couldn't figure out what day they were gonna be there to record guitar parts and he only finds out when he gets the recorded finalized song.

How is that possible?

Maybe he didn't care about the song until after when he realized he can use it to paint himself as the victim?

Some of you think Axl approves every tweet posted on the GN'R twitter and every GN'R Facebook status update. And then you think it's completely normal and not fat fetched that the main guitar player of a band has no idea that the band's singer is in a recording studio secretly masterminding the recording of guitars tracks that will be used in addition to the guitar player's guitar parts....



/jarmo

[nick6sic6]

Sorry for jumping in but it seems to me that way before everybody left, Axl was already functioning Guns as a big corporation.Which it was and still is.

When everybody else was sex drugs and rock n roll,

Slash in his book wrote that he and the whole band should have been more responsible and not naive about the size of Guns in the Illusions tour,
Axl was professional in every aspect.

[D-GenerationX]

So Slash recording all those guitar parts on the Illusions instead of Izzy was wrong?

Did he sneak into the studio and do it on the downlow with no one else's knowledge?

Because, if not, its not really an accurate comparison.

I thought professional "real" bands release music.  Wasn't that your definition?
Maybe the song wouldn't been out if he didn't get it to the point where he thought it was good enough?

Real bands write, record, and release music.

Unprofessional people treat their fellow bandmates like employees without an equal say and do things behind their back against their wishes and expect them to roll with it.

But I will never accept that a double tracked Slash is not a better option than the bullshit Axl pulled, which is what you are trying to sell here.

Because you prefer his way!
Maybe it's ok for you if he got his way, as long as Axl didn't? Maybe this is your order of business: Democractic band decision > Slash decision > Axl decision.

This is just you making this into an Axl vs. Slash thing for you own reasons, none of which interest me.

The fact remains that what Axl did was wrong.  Calling Slash means names in 2014 to prove your "loyalty" does not change what Axl did in 1994.  And never will.

Slash was double tracked on 'Locomotive', a song most of us love.  Its not like this was without precedent.  And, for the I don't know many times its been said by now, nothing Slash did was a secret no one knew about until release.  Its a ridiculous comparison you are attempting to make here.

The guy plays guitar parts instead of having Izzy featured more prominently on the album. Then when a similar thing is done to him, he gets upset....

And if Slash did this without Izzy's knowledge (or anyone else's) this might be valid.

But, he didn't.  So it's not.

Slash never hid what he did.

Izzy: On the last record I wasn't around for the mixes, and when they finished them you really don't hear my guitar at all. It was just a big Les Paul through a Marshall sound on most of the songs.

Whose sound is that? Did the other guitar player tell Izzy to check out those mixes? If he didn't, isn't that hiding?

No. 

So you, in fact, dispute that Axl put Paul on there without telling the others.  That's what you are going with.  Slash actually was told ahead of time and this was all done openly.  Just so we are clear, this is what you are telling me.

I'm telling you that I have  hard time believing that the guitar player in the band, who was pretty involved in the band's business, had no idea Axl was taking Paul into the studio in secret to record guitar parts and Slash had no idea this happened/was going on.

First, smart move backing off your earlier proclamations, which were obviously preposterous.

I guess that leaves you with only "it seems hard to believe..." type stuff, if it spares you having to say anything bad about Axl. 

And here we are again.  None of this is accurate.  Axl erased Slash's stuff and put Paul's stuff on there without telling anyone.  End of story.  That is what happened.

What is your source?

Perhaps I spoke too soon.  You seem to back into "that never happened" mode.

So much for that last passage. 

I also don't subscribe to the mindset I need to shut down all common sense and rational thinking

So in your common sense and rational thinking ways, Slash, one of three guys in the GN'R partnership, has no idea about what his band is doing at the time?
He even admitted going to the studio one day when he knew Axl would be there. Yet, he couldn't figure out what day they were gonna be there to record guitar parts and he only finds out when he gets the recorded finalized song.

How is that possible?

Maybe he didn't care about the song until after when he realized he can use it to paint himself as the victim?

No.

Axl did a bad thing but you are going to be god damned if you are going to say that publically, so you keep introducing new threads and strained comparisons to other things if it spares you having to say it.

[D-GenerationX]

Slash in his book wrote that he and the whole band should have been more responsible and not naive about the size of Guns in the Illusions tour,
Axl was professional in every aspect.

Not sure taking the stage 3 hours late, incurring overtime fines, and leaving your crew to have to work ridiculous hours to tear down your stage is the epitome of professional behavior.

Slash also said in his book that one of the main reasons he quit was these things. 

[jarmo]

Did he sneak into the studio and do it on the downlow with no one else's knowledge?

Because, if not, its not really an accurate comparison.

It's comparable.

If Axl can do things in "secret" as you claim, why can't Slash while Izzy isn't present?

Unprofessional people treat their fellow bandmates like employees without an equal say and do things behind their back against their wishes and expect them to roll with it.

Because this has been "widely reported" as facts.

This is just you making this into an Axl vs. Slash thing for you own reasons, none of which interest me.

No, that's me trying to get some clarity from you.

In this case, Axl got Paul to record since nobody else was offering any ideas besides "let's get Gilby back".
In your idea, it would've been better if Slash could do what he wanted.

Is it better to have Slash do things his way than have things Axl's way?

And if Slash did this without Izzy's knowledge (or anyone else's) this might be valid.

But, he didn't.  So it's not.

How come Izzy only found out after the albums were mixed? Why is that the point where he finds out all his parts are low in the mix? I mean honest Slash wasn't trying to hide anything... So what's the reason?

Axl did a bad thing but you are going to be god damned if you are going to say that publically

If you can find out that something is gonna happen, yet do nothing about it, then play the victim card about it, it kinda invalidates your whole point. Any person with common sense would say "Well, why didn't you do anything?". Your answer is: it was done in secret.

It's GN'R in a studio, Slash wasn't going to get into NORAD!


If the guy can find out what day Axl will be down at the studio, you don't think he can find out what other stuff is going on at the studio? In secret... Right.


Why would somebody let that happen? Because he realized it's not his band after all? Because he doesn't care?


Hey, just as favor for you, I'll put another thought out there for you to ignore. Maybe Axl did this to light a fire under Slash's ass. Maybe he needed to be motivated. Maybe since Slash's best idea on who to get to play guitar in GN'R was "Gilby!", Axl had to show him they needed someone else and that he was serious about it.




/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

We are not moving this conversation forward, Jarmo.   And I'm not going to retype my answers to your same exact, just slightly rephrased questions.  Just look up.

You are content to go through a hell of a lot of contortions to avoid having to say that sandbagging your own bandmates isn't cool.  Which is hardly some radical concept.

"Yeah, that wasn't cool."  That's all that had to be said.

Then we could have started burying Slash.

[jarmo]

 

You're saying "that happened, it wasn't cool".
I'm saying "I'm not sure that happened, maybe this happened instead".

For people who believe that all those things Axl's been accused of doing actually happened exactly the way they were described, it's easy to say "bad Axl!".


I don't buy the secrecy you describe. If Slash manages to find out what day Axl's at the studio, I find it hard to believe he couldn't find out what else was going on there. There's telephones.
Or he could teleport himself there since it's all happening in secret in some parallel universe where things are secret and mysterious.


You're saying it was bad of Axl to take charge and do things his way while the others were being idle and doing nothing about it.
Ironic isn't it?



/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

Thank God we have Axl, really.

[Bridge]

It's comparable.

If Axl can do things in "secret" as you claim, why can't Slash while Izzy isn't present?

Slash and Axl both stated publicly somewhere back then that they had problems with Izzy not showing up for recording sessions, as well as refusing to record guitar parts more than one time for each track.  I believe Axl's comment was "we'd ask Izzy to record the guitar part again, and Izzy would say 'why, I just did it'."

So no, that's not comparable, since (according to Slash and Axl both), the problem here was with Izzy's behavior.

[Gilbyfan]

Ok for the record I love and dig all eras of GN'R. But Jarmo why would it have been a bad idea to rehire Gilby? I never got why Axl sacked him with no consultation from the rest of the band. I've read Axl didn't think he'd be able to write with Gilby. Really? Have you heard Gilby's albums? Ok so Gilby doesn't try to reinvent the wheel. But his solo albums, plus Col Parker and Kills For Thrills albums are filled with great hooks and songs. He's got a ragged but great voice. Plays a mean guitar and not at all bad on lead either.

That's not even going into who he's toured with, produced, records he played on. In comparison what exactly has Paul done that's set the rock world on fire? I know he co wrote Back Off Bitch, played additional guitar on a Stones cover and co wrote and played some guitar on CD. And played what three live shows with Guns.

Now hey I love Axl and the present band. I've never viewed the gradual break up of classic Guns as black and white. I'm sure both Axl and Slash made their mistakes. And Jarmo I respect your loyalty to Axl. But I can see why Slash wanted gilby over Paul.

[jarmo]

If you stop working with somebody, in this case Gilby, there's probably a reason. Right?

So why is the best option then to re-hire that person? Of course it's the easiest option.

So no, that's not comparable, since (according to Slash and Axl both), the problem here was with Izzy's behavior.

That's true.

I don't think Izzy's all innocent in it. His behavior probably caused some of it along with the fact hat Slash probably wouldn't exactly say no to getting more of his work featured on the albums.

The main point was that in both cases the people involved claim they only realized what had been done when they heard the final track(s). In the Izzy case, it wasn't apparently done in secret while in the other case it was some kind of secret conspiracy.
I don't believe it.


Regarding the aborted album. There were probably lots of song ideas, but no interest from Slash to work on them further. Then he took off on tour with his own band leaving Duff and Matt to continue working with Axl.
In 1996 it was apparent this band wasn't gonna make another record any time soon.

 



/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

It's comparable.

If Axl can do things in "secret" as you claim, why can't Slash while Izzy isn't present?

Slash and Axl both stated publicly somewhere back then that they had problems with Izzy not showing up for recording sessions, as well as refusing to record guitar parts more than one time for each track.  I believe Axl's comment was "we'd ask Izzy to record the guitar part again, and Izzy would say 'why, I just did it'."

So no, that's not comparable, since (according to Slash and Axl both), the problem here was with Izzy's behavior.

Correct.  That was a collaborative decision.  There were no secrets there.

Look, let's just bottom line this.  There is only one reason Axl would feel he had to do this without telling the others in the band.  And it sure as shit ain't that the phone lines were down that day.  It was an end around to get what he wanted over the already stated objection of the others.  Not telling anyone was no accident or wacky misunderstanding.

[D-GenerationX]

Ok for the record I love and dig all eras of GN'R. But Jarmo why would it have been a bad idea to rehire Gilby? I never got why Axl sacked him with no consultation from the rest of the band. I've read Axl didn't think he'd be able to write with Gilby. Really? Have you heard Gilby's albums? Ok so Gilby doesn't try to reinvent the wheel. But his solo albums, plus Col Parker and Kills For Thrills albums are filled with great hooks and songs. He's got a ragged but great voice. Plays a mean guitar and not at all bad on lead either.

That's not even going into who he's toured with, produced, records he played on. In comparison what exactly has Paul done that's set the rock world on fire? I know he co wrote Back Off Bitch, played additional guitar on a Stones cover and co wrote and played some guitar on CD. And played what three live shows with Guns.

Now hey I love Axl and the present band. I've never viewed the gradual break up of classic Guns as black and white. I'm sure both Axl and Slash made their mistakes. And Jarmo I respect your loyalty to Axl. But I can see why Slash wanted gilby over Paul.

Paul's biggest qualification was being Axl's friend.  Let's just say what it is.

[jarmo]

Paul's biggest qualification was being Axl's friend.  Let's just say what it is.

He had already worked with Axl in the past. He was available. He plays guitar.

Eventually he got song writing credits on songs such as There Was A Time, Catcher In The Rye, I.R.S. and Prostitute. Songs that probably could've worked quite well even if they had been recorded by one of the old line ups. Meaning, they're not the "industrial" kind of songs that people thought Axl was only working on, or a big departure from previous material.



/jarmo

[sofine11]

Paul is a great writer, and I am hoping beyond hope that he'll show up in the credits of the next album, as he wrote some of my very favorite tracks on Chinese, particularly TWAT & IRS.

That said, I can see why Slash had an aversion to working with him.  He basically personified Slash's beef with Axl, as he was brought in without Slash's approval, while Slash was perfectly content having Gilby serve as his rhythm guitarist.  In other words, even after reading Slash's book, it seems like Slash had his mind made up about Paul before they even stepped in a room together to try to write some music, particularly after the Sympathy For The Devil incident.  Not exactly Paul's fault.  He was just doing what his buddy Axl asked IMO.

[D-GenerationX]

That said, I can see why Slash had an aversion to working with him.  He basically personified Slash's beef with Axl, as he was brought in without Slash's approval, while Slash was perfectly content having Gilby serve as his rhythm guitarist.  In other words, even after reading Slash's book, it seems like Slash had his mind made up about Paul before they even stepped in a room together to try to write some music, particularly after the Sympathy For The Devil incident.  Not exactly Paul's fault.  He was just doing what his buddy Axl asked IMO.

True.  But three things strike me.

1) Let's make you Paul.  You see that your inclusion is not exactly welcomed with open arms.  You don't talk to Axl about that?

2) Slash says he wants Gilby.  Axl is not onboard.  Axl says he wants Paul.  Slash is not onboard.  Isn't the common sense thing to remove both guys from the equation?  Logically, if you pick either man, you know one person will be unhappy.  Jarmo likes to tell us over and over again that it was wrong for Slash to try and force Gilby on Axl...but Axl forcing Paul on Slash is cool.  What's the difference?

3) Your theory about Paul being the personification of things going to shit between Axl and Slash is valid, I think.  But I think Paul loses whatever innocent bystander role in this power struggle when we have Matt Sorum telling us that Paul is in the studio running Slash down.  I think once you start doing that, you are not an innocent bystander.  You are a person with a partisan agenda.

As for Paul's work on CD, yeah, it was good.  But I often see things ina  cost benefit analysis way.  Was what he brought to the table THAT amazing that it was worth all the other bullshit?  Honestly, I'd say no.  In other words, I'm not sure he was the dealbreaker that he has pretty much wound up being.  A big reason the band broke up and we wound up waiting 15 years for an album was Axl's insistence Paul be in the fold.  Worth it?

[JAEBALL]

Paul is a great writer, and I am hoping beyond hope that he'll show up in the credits of the next album, as he wrote some of my very favorite tracks on Chinese, particularly TWAT & IRS.

That said, I can see why Slash had an aversion to working with him.  He basically personified Slash's beef with Axl, as he was brought in without Slash's approval, while Slash was perfectly content having Gilby serve as his rhythm guitarist.  In other words, even after reading Slash's book, it seems like Slash had his mind made up about Paul before they even stepped in a room together to try to write some music, particularly after the Sympathy For The Devil incident.  Not exactly Paul's fault.  He was just doing what his buddy Axl asked IMO.

No matter how you spin it, Slash AND Duff were not happy with this guy being forced on them, regardless if Gilby was the right guy..he probably wasn't... but it was very clear Slash and Duff were not happy with Paul, that alone... so why go there?

and the same thing goes for Slash regarding Gilby...if Axl didnt want him, he should have been more accepting of that and decide together who would be a good person to work with, but BOTH of them tried to force the issue and not come to any common ground on this or any other issue for that amtter

in any line of work, if ur boss or whoever brings in somebody to work along side of you who you dont vibe with... ur not gunna produce to the best of ur ability...

its my belief... that if it wasnt this... it would have been something else... it wasnt sympathy of the devil, or slash snakepit , or one guys unwillingness to work more, those just happened to be the side stories at the time... they were just tired of each other...big egos, and it festered year after year of stubbornness

the end result... almost 20 years of no communication