The "1996 GN'R album"

[D-GenerationX]

I rather like their cover of 'Sympathy'. 

But hearing the backstory about how it affected the band should bum out any fan.  What the hell Axl was thinking, I'll never know.  Erasing Slash's rhythm parts without telling him, and then having his buddy Paul (who Slash wanted nothing to do with) put his parts in was a horrendous decision.  Total slap in the face.

As for these supposed sessions that may have produced a new GNR record, as others have already said, it wasn't like we were talking finished songs here.  Getting Axl to lay down vocals seems to be like pulling teeth.  For all the tweaking and changes Axl did on the songs on 'Chinese', never did he record new vocals.  Those vocal tracks on 'I.R.S.' and 'Catcher' never changed.  And they were done, when, 1999?

[jarmo]

The band had no second guitar player. They were supposed to be a one guitar band because Slash wanted it that way?

Regarding Paul Tobias Axl said:

?The public gets a different story from the other guys ? Slash, Duff, Matt - who have their own agendas. The original intentions between Paul and myself were that Paul was going to help me for as long as it took to get this thing together in whatever capacity that he could help me in. So when he first was brought into this, he was brought in as a writer to work with Slash. At the time those guys never suggested one name. Nobody else. Ever.

Paul was one of the best people we knew who was both available and capable of complimenting Slash?s style. You could bring in a better guitar player than Paul. You could bring in a monster. I tried putting Zakk Wylde with Slash and that didn?t work. It brought out some interesting things in Slash but it was a different approach that ended up being overpowering and didn?t bring out the best in Slash. It brought out some interesting things and it would?ve worked to do some songs. But Paul was only interested in complimenting Slash, laying down a foundation of a riff or something. That would accent or encourage Slash's lead playing. Now whether or not Paul was going to be officially on the album or on the tour that really wasn?t an actual consideration at the time. It was in the air as a possibility but Paul was a friend trying to help us and he had a huge respect for Slash. He is and this is the bottom line a good man and that's the reality behind things. That doesn't change what took place with old Guns. I feel that some of the recordings we did in that limited amount of time had some of the best playing that Slash had done at least since Illusions. I was there. I know what I heard and it was pretty exciting.?

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=82




Also, why was Slash playing Izzy's parts on the Use Your Illusion albums? If you attack someone for doubling your guitar parts, why did he do the same on those albums?

What do you mean he didn't play on "...Illusion" albums?!

"I had to double guitars up for him on most of it. He didn't play very much."

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=16





/jarmo

[nick6sic6]

By all accounts, recording the song "Sympathy for the Devil" in late 1993 was a nightmare for all concerned, and it wasn't even written by GNR, so I can't even imagine what would've or could've gone on if they were trying to write and record at that time.

Do you think it was recorded in late 1993? It was released in December 1994.




/jarmo

In Slash's book he says it was recorded sometime in 1994. It was one of the final attempts to work together as a group before he left.

[D-GenerationX]

The band had no second guitar player. They were supposed to be a one guitar band because Slash wanted it that way?

The reason to sneak back in under cover of night to secretly erase his parts and put Paul's over Slash's is obvious.  Its because he knows Slash would tell him no fucking way.  Not necessarily that it couldn't be another guy, but Slash was clear he wanted nothing to do with this particular guy.

Doing it the way Axl did it was completely unprofessional.  But that's just in a business sense.  On a personal level, you don't have the stones to go to Slash man to man and suggest this?

Apparently not.  You do it on your own, tell no one, and then let Slash find out when he hears it once released and let the chips fall where they may.

Axl fucked this one up.  I know that tends to be verboten around here, but any objective analysis of the situation will conclude Axl went about this the wrong way.

[jarmo]

If this was just another day in the life of you or me and you don't want to work with somebody. It's fine. But what's your alternative? What's your suggestion? How are you gonna fix it?

We never heard anything about that. What was Slash's "plan"? All we heard was how horrible things were and he left.

There's a problem that you don't like, but you offer no possible solutions. And then you spend years complaining about how unfair it was?




/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

Its pretty simple, Jarmo.

If you have another theory as to why Axl felt he had to do this in secret and not tell anyone else, I'd love to hear it.  You already know my stance, which you apparently reject.  So let's hear why Axl did it that way, as you see it.

Along similar lines, if you have another theory as to doing it the way Axl did it is acceptable, I'd love to hear that too.  Again, my theory that you reject is that this was neither professional from a business standpoint, not appropriate from a personal level towards a fellow bandmate of equal stature.  So let's also hear how what Axl did is OK, as you see it.

I have been neither nasty in this post, nor a smartass, which are the reasons you usually give to duck my questions.  Please extend me the courtesy of answering me.

[jarmo]

Do you see why there's some issues with just believing somebody is unhappy about a situation yet hasn't been able to offer any kind of ideas of how he wanted things to go from there?

I'm not sure if things were done in "secret". If I post something here while you're away, am I doing it in secret? Not really.


The theory I have is that Axl did what he thought needed to be done since nobody else seemed to be into doing anything.



/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

Do you see why there's some issues with just believing somebody is unhappy about a situation yet hasn't been able to offer any kind of ideas of how he wanted things to go from there?

I think Slash laid down both tracks and the song was done.

I also know that Slash wanted nothing to do with Paul and made that known.  Its literally the exact reason Axl did this behind his back, because he knew he'd never go for it.

As for bringing in another guy, why did it have to be Paul?  Was that going to be productive?  Forcing a guy on the others that they don't want in their band?

I'm not sure if things were done in "secret". If I post something here while you're away, am I doing it in secret? Not really.

They were absolutely done in secret.  This is not even up for debate.

At no point did Axl inform anyone what he was doing.  That is the very definition of secret.

The theory I have is that Axl did what he thought needed to be done since nobody else seemed to be into doing anything.

And you find this appropriate?

At that time in the band, Axl, Slash, and Duff are all on equal footing in the band hierarchy.  But Axl deciding to do something on his own, not have the courtesy to even tell them about it...that's no big deal.  That's ridiculous, come on.

Axl did what he wanted to do, others opinions be damned. 

[jarmo]

Well, one of the explanations "why him?" is because nobody else had any other suggestions! If you read the Axl quote, you already know this.

And regarding Slash playing both tracks, what for? As I said, if GN'R up until that point was a two guitar band, why was it right for Slash to make it a one guitar band? Did he tell this to Axl? That his idea of GN'R is to have him play all guitars on studio material and then maybe get somebody to play the songs live? Was that the big plan?

If that's the case, how professional is that? Why would that be his call?

They were absolutely done in secret.  This is not even up for debate.

At no point did Axl inform anyone what he was doing.  That is the very definition of secret.

And how do you know this as a fact?



/jarmo

[sofine11]

By all accounts, recording the song "Sympathy for the Devil" in late 1993 was a nightmare for all concerned, and it wasn't even written by GNR, so I can't even imagine what would've or could've gone on if they were trying to write and record at that time.

Do you think it was recorded in late 1993? It was released in December 1994.




/jarmo

Yep.  It was Paul's involvement in the recording that caused Slash to storm off and record the first Snakepit album, unbeknownst to Axl, which would then be released that very Spring.  Bit of an overeaction, I'd say, and fucked up any real chance of another Axl/Slash album materializing. 

Slash taking his ball and going home, when Axl only wanted to develop the tracks further, was what really ended that era IMO.  Even Slash said in his book that Axl called him and wanted to start developing them, Slash just said "They're gone, dude."  What the fuck?!

[D-GenerationX]

And regarding Slash playing both tracks, what for? As I said, if GN'R up until that point was a two guitar band, why was it right for Slash to make it a one guitar band? Did he tell this to Axl? That his idea of GN'R is to have him play all guitars on studio material and then maybe get somebody to play the songs live? Was that the big plan?

No, nor has anyone ever suggested it.

As I recall, that track was done separately.  This was not Lennon & McCartney sitting at the piano banging out a tune.  The band did their parts and Axl did his.  It was not done together all one day in the studio.

If that's the case, how professional is that? Why would that be his call?

This was one song for a soundtrack.  Never, ever, ever has it been suggested that Slash playing on both tracks was anything but a way to get this one track done.  At no time was it decided or ever discussed this would be the way GNR would function going forward.

If Axl had some big problem with Slash doing both parts, the professional way to deal with it discuss it as a band and make the decision as a band how to resolve it.  The completely unprofessional way to do it is to know your stated choice for a second guitar player won't be the choice of the others, so rather than do it openly and above board, you sneak in and do it yourself and don't tell anyone.

In no rational universe is this acceptable.

Even take your own little site here.  I see you have fellow moderators listed.  Suppose one of them came to you with an idea that you weren't really onboard with.  They make their case, you aren't hearing it.

Then, you log on one day and see that they went ahead and did it themselves.  When you ask them about it, they tell you that since you were dragging your feet, they did what they felt was in the best interest of the board.  They had a suggestion and you didn't, so really...this is on you.

If I'm to believe what you are telling me today, your reaction should not only be immediate acceptance of what was done, you'd also have to really put the blame on yourself because it was your own delay in making a decision that forced their hand.

I ask you quite simply...would that be your reaction?  In case its unclear, I doubt that's how you (or anyone) would react to such a thing.

They were absolutely done in secret.  This is not even up for debate.

At no point did Axl inform anyone what he was doing.  That is the very definition of secret.

And how do you know this as a fact?

Because it was widely reported and disputed by no one.  Paul's stuff got on there somehow, and it wasn't magic fairys in the night.

[D-GenerationX]

Yep.  It was Paul's involvement in the recording that caused Slash to storm off and record the first Snakepit album, unbeknownst to Axl, which would then be released that very Spring.  Bit of an overeaction, I'd say, and fucked up any real chance of another Axl/Slash album materializing. 

It sure didn't help.

But look at things from Slash's perspective.  He brings what wound up being Snakepit's album and Axl is not really enthused about what he's hearing.

You then hear the 'Sympathy' single once its already released, and you discover that your fellow band mate has removed some of your work without telling you, if favor of another guy you have already said you weren't interested in working with.

Would you be terribly amused by you so called friend and so called business partner's actions?  Its hardly inconceivable that you are going to be unhappy.

[jarmo]

You're quick to look at it from Slash's perspective and understanding. 

He had songs, didn't want to work on them as a band, took off and recorded them himself. You attack Axl for not being professional and whatnot, but Slash can do what he wants?

As I recall, that track was done separately.  This was not Lennon & McCartney sitting at the piano banging out a tune.  The band did their parts and Axl did his.  It was not done together all one day in the studio.

Sure, they can record their parts separately. But at what point was it ok for Slash to be the only guitar player on the track?
Since he didn't approve of the other guitar player.

If Axl had some big problem with Slash doing both parts, the professional way to deal with it discuss it as a band and make the decision as a band how to resolve it.  The completely unprofessional way to do it is to know your stated choice for a second guitar player won't be the choice of the others, so rather than do it openly and above board, you sneak in and do it yourself and don't tell anyone.

Axl needs to get everything approved by the rest of the band in your opinion, but Slash can record all guitar parts on his own. And that's no big deal.

Even take your own little site here.  I see you have fellow moderators listed.  Suppose one of them came to you with an idea that you weren't really onboard with.  They make their case, you aren't hearing it.

Then, you log on one day and see that they went ahead and did it themselves.  When you ask them about it, they tell you that since you were dragging your feet, they did what they felt was in the best interest of the board.  They had a suggestion and you didn't, so really...this is on you.

Good analogy, except you forgot the part where people suggest things and I say "no" without offering anything back. No other options, no feedback. Just "no" .
Also, if this other person thought it was his/her right to do as they wish without consulting me.

If you can't see why that could be frustrating to somebody, then I can't help you.

Because it was widely reported and disputed by no one.  Paul's stuff got on there somehow, and it wasn't magic fairys in the night.

Widely reported? 
At one point it was widely reported that the earth is flat. Doesn't make it a fact!


Let me ask you this then. If somebody doesn't like something that was done, how do you paint a picture that makes you look like a victim. Do you say "Oh, I knew what they were doing" or "it was done without me knowing, I had no idea! It was a secret!"?

Also, how come the guy who wanted control of GN'R (Slash) didn't have any idea this was going on or was gonna happen? Surely he must have known when Axl was gonna be in the studio. Axl's not some superhero who can just appear in the studio without anybody knowing that he'll be there.

Suddenly Slash has no idea what's going on in the studio where his band is recording a new song?

Isn't it naive to assume the guitar player doesn't know what's going on? Unless it fits your picture of the universe. He's a poor victim and evil Axl just secretly recorded the stuff.
Maybe the fact is that he knew, but he didn't want to deal with it? Maybe he had a chance to be there, but he didn't care to?

For a guy who presents songs to GN'R and then just takes off, he doesn't seem so innocent.




/jarmo

[sofine11]

Yep.  It was Paul's involvement in the recording that caused Slash to storm off and record the first Snakepit album, unbeknownst to Axl, which would then be released that very Spring.  Bit of an overeaction, I'd say, and fucked up any real chance of another Axl/Slash album materializing. 

It sure didn't help.

But look at things from Slash's perspective.  He brings what wound up being Snakepit's album and Axl is not really enthused about what he's hearing.

You then hear the 'Sympathy' single once its already released, and you discover that your fellow band mate has removed some of your work without telling you, if favor of another guy you have already said you weren't interested in working with.

Would you be terribly amused by you so called friend and so called business partner's actions?  Its hardly inconceivable that you are going to be unhappy.

I actually didn't know some of Slash's work was cut in favor of Paul's.  I knew that they added in Paul's "answers" to Slash during the solo, but that's all I was aware of.  I agree that Axl should have let Slash know, but did Slash really need to take all of his ideas for the next album and turn them into Snakepit, in turn, without Axl's knowledge?  I would say no.

If Axl flat out rejected the material, that would be a different story.  The truth is that he liked parts, but wanted to develop it further.  Slash even confirmed as much.  Kind of seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face to me.  Slash wanted the songs to be what they were, that pissed him off, and Paul Tobias's inclusion on Sympathy was likely the straw that broke the camel's back.  The rest is history.

So, Axl should've been upfront about Paul's inclusion on Sympathy, and perhaps Slash shouldnt have been so quick to go forward with the Snakepit project.

[D-GenerationX]

You're quick to look at it from Slash's perspective and understanding. 

I call things as I see them.  If roles were reversed on this, I'd be calling out Slash.

It's the action itself that was wrong, not who did it.  

He had songs, didn't want to work on them as a band, took off and recorded them himself. You attack Axl for not being professional and whatnot, but Slash can do what he wants?

I said Axl was unprofessional for what he did with the 'Sympathy' single, because he was.

Slash, I have no doubt was a bit salty at Axl at the time he did the Snakepit album.  But, Axl said he wasn't interested, so its not like it was totally out of the blue.  He has no real way to forecast that after some time and out of nowhere Axl is going to suddenly be interested.

But, full disclosure, having heard that first Snakepit album...frankly, Axl was right to not be impressed.

Sure, they can record their parts separately. But at what point was it ok for Slash to be the only guitar player on the track?
Since he didn't approve of the other guitar player.

Sitting down together and settling on a new band member would have been the best case scenario, obviously.

But I will never accept that a double tracked Slash is not a better option than the bullshit Axl pulled, which is what you are trying to sell here.  

Slash was double tracked on 'Locomotive', a song most of us love.  Its not like this was without precedent.  And, for the I don't know many times its been said by now, nothing Slash did was a secret no one knew about until release.  Its a ridiculous comparison you are attempting to make here.

Axl needs to get everything approved by the rest of the band in your opinion, but Slash can record all guitar parts on his own. And that's no big deal.

Slash never hid what he did.  Axl wound up with a final track to fuck with, did he not?  Where was the secrecy?

Its a poor analogy.

Widely reported? 
At one point it was widely reported that the earth is flat. Doesn't make it a fact!

So you, in fact, dispute that Axl put Paul on there without telling the others.  That's what you are going with.  Slash actually was told ahead of time and this was all done openly.  Just so we are clear, this is what you are telling me.

We both know that is flat out inaccurate.  You may have to pretend otherwise for your own not exactly secret reasons, but I (nor anyone else) should not be required to share your delusion.

Let me ask you this then. If somebody doesn't like something that was done, how do you paint a picture that makes you look like a victim. Do you say "Oh, I knew what they were doing" or "it was done without me knowing, I had no idea! It was a secret!"?

Also, how come the guy who wanted control of GN'R (Slash) didn't have any idea this was going on or was gonna happen? Surely he must have known when Axl was gonna be in the studio. Axl's not some superhero who can just appear in the studio without anybody knowing that he'll be there.

Suddenly Slash has no idea what's going on in the studio where his band is recording a new song?

Isn't it naive to assume the guitar player doesn't know what's going on? Unless it fits your picture of the universe. He's a poor victim and evil Axl just secretly recorded the stuff.
Maybe the fact is that he knew, but he didn't want to deal with it? Maybe he had a chance to be there, but he didn't care to?

For a guy who presents songs to GN'R and then just takes off, he doesn't seem so innocent.

And here we are again.  None of this is accurate.  Axl erased Slash's stuff and put Paul's stuff on there without telling anyone.  End of story.  That is what happened.

I'm damn sure not going to waste any time with a lot of passive aggressive "isn't it funny how..." type comments in hopes of distracting from the basic facts of the matter.

I also don't subscribe to the mindset I need to shut down all common sense and rational thinking because otherwise, god forbid, I have to say something bad about Axl.  Axl was in the wrong here, the end.  I have no problem saying it out loud.  You are either completely incapable or simply unwilling to make that same concession.

[D-GenerationX]

I actually didn't know some of Slash's work was cut in favor of Paul's.  I knew that they added in Paul's "answers" to Slash during the solo, but that's all I was aware of.  I agree that Axl should have let Slash know, but did Slash really need to take all of his ideas for the next album and turn them into Snakepit, in turn, without Axl's knowledge?  I would say no.

If Axl flat out rejected the material, that would be a different story.  The truth is that he liked parts, but wanted to develop it further.  Slash even confirmed as much.  Kind of seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face to me.  Slash wanted the songs to be what they were, that pissed him off, and Paul Tobias's inclusion on Sympathy was likely the straw that broke the camel's back.  The rest is history.

So, Axl should've been upfront about Paul's inclusion on Sympathy, and perhaps Slash shouldnt have been so quick to go forward with the Snakepit project.

All fair, I think.

But in the Jarmoverse, we don't make that concession I bolded.  Axl did absolutely nothing wrong (and, really, was actually a hero in all this if you think about it) and Slash has some god damn balls doing what he did.  Can't trust that guy Slash.  What a dick.

I feel the way you have put it here makes more sense than the conversation I am having with the Big Chief.

[sofine11]

I actually didn't know some of Slash's work was cut in favor of Paul's.  I knew that they added in Paul's "answers" to Slash during the solo, but that's all I was aware of.  I agree that Axl should have let Slash know, but did Slash really need to take all of his ideas for the next album and turn them into Snakepit, in turn, without Axl's knowledge?  I would say no.

If Axl flat out rejected the material, that would be a different story.  The truth is that he liked parts, but wanted to develop it further.  Slash even confirmed as much.  Kind of seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face to me.  Slash wanted the songs to be what they were, that pissed him off, and Paul Tobias's inclusion on Sympathy was likely the straw that broke the camel's back.  The rest is history.

So, Axl should've been upfront about Paul's inclusion on Sympathy, and perhaps Slash shouldnt have been so quick to go forward with the Snakepit project.

All fair, I think.

But in the Jarmoverse, we don't make that concession I bolded.  Axl did absolutely nothing wrong (and, really, was actually a hero in all this if you think about it) and Slash has some god damn balls doing what he did.  Can't trust that guy Slash.  What a dick.

I feel the way you have put it here makes more sense than the conversation I am having with the Big Chief.

Yeah, I obviously don't subscribe to that kind of strange absolutism.  Even Axl said he may not get everything right with Guns, but he's the only one trying to keep it alive and going.  For the most part, I've always agreed with his assessment there.

I think Slash honest to God did not think Guns N' Roses would continue without him and called Axl's bluff by walking.  In the end, Axl didn't blink, Slash did. 

So, when Axl's response was more or less "Don't let the door hit you on the way out." It took everyone off guard, even Duff and Matt, who stuck around for bit.  They always thought eventually Slash would return to the fold, when Axl had no intentions of allowing that to happen.  When they saw that wasn't going to happen, especially after Robin was hired, they both walked.

[D-GenerationX]

Yeah, I obviously don't subscribe to that kind of strange absolutism.  Even Axl said he may not get everything right with Guns, but he's the only one trying to keep it alive and going.  For the most part, I've always agreed with his assessment there.

Not sure I can go that far.

Taking 10 fucking years to do an album doesn't seem to meet that standard.  I speak in more specifics about the years 2003-2005.  We are talking over 1,000 days there.  A long god damn time doing nothing.

I think Slash honest to God did not think Guns N' Roses would continue without him and called Axl's bluff by walking.  In the end, Axl didn't blink, Slash did. 

So, when Axl's response was more or less "Don't let the door hit you on the way out." It took everyone off guard, even Duff and Matt, who stuck around for bit.  They always thought eventually Slash would return to the fold, when Axl had no intentions of allowing that to happen.  When they saw that wasn't going to happen, especially after Robin was hired, they both walked.

Now this, I can agree with.  This was always my impression too.  That the others likely figured this was just a bump in the road.

[sofine11]

Yeah, I obviously don't subscribe to that kind of strange absolutism.  Even Axl said he may not get everything right with Guns, but he's the only one trying to keep it alive and going.  For the most part, I've always agreed with his assessment there.

Not sure I can go that far.

Taking 10 fucking years to do an album doesn't seem to meet that standard.  I speak in more specifics about the years 2003-2005.  We are talking over 1,000 days there.  A long god damn time doing nothing.

I see what you're saying.  I do have sympathy for the 2000-02 era when Roy Thomas Baker, at the behest of the label, had them re-record every Goddamn thing to make it sound better.  But why after those sessions, it took another 5 damn years to cook the album I will never understand.

[D-GenerationX]

Yeah, I obviously don't subscribe to that kind of strange absolutism.  Even Axl said he may not get everything right with Guns, but he's the only one trying to keep it alive and going.  For the most part, I've always agreed with his assessment there.

Not sure I can go that far.

Taking 10 fucking years to do an album doesn't seem to meet that standard.  I speak in more specifics about the years 2003-2005.  We are talking over 1,000 days there.  A long god damn time doing nothing.

I see what you're saying.  I do have sympathy for the 2000-02 era when Roy Thomas Baker, at the behest of the label, had them re-record every Goddamn thing to make it sound better.  But why after those sessions, it took another 5 damn years to cook the album I will never understand.

I thought the leaks were a good thing at the time, because they represented hope when things looked bleak.

Yes, there is an actual album coming.  Yes, these are songs they have done.  That sort of thing.

But then to hear the finished product after listening to the leaks all that time, there was a feeling of...wait, this took several entire years extra time?