Guns N' Roses Facebook Update

[GeorgeSteele]

What is the correct way to market a hard rock album in 2014? 

Its not rocket science, I don't think.  The rest of the entire industry doesn't seem to just be a constant state of wonder of anything can ever get done.  Clearly, it can be done.

I would imagine step one is doing some proper interviews with people.  That takes, what, a phone call?  An hour of your time?

And an interview where you talk about your band, and your music, and what you will be doing.  You get people focused on your work.    

But not yet another rambling rendition of how hard life is and how its a constant struggle against the forces of evil.  That "woe is me" tale is not only long past tired at this point, its for damn sure not getting anyone excited about your latest endeavor.

This is my band.  I'm excited to play with these guys.  Here is what we did.  Check it out.

The usual misdirection point to cut this conversation off before it starts tends to start out "It's not 1991 anymore...".  But the topic is promotion and not a history lesson.  Just because albums don't sell like 20 years ago doesn't meant the same basic, fundamental concepts of promotion are extinct.

It's about want to.  

So the label gets the lion's share of record sales, but the artist is responsible for marketing?  I'm no industry guru, but I would imagine that most record label contracts say that the label handles marketing.  Isn't the point of having a label that the artist can focus on the music and performing while the label handles the business side (financing, production, marketing, distribution, etc.)?

[jarmo]

So the label gets the lion's share of record sales, but the artist is responsible for marketing?  I'm no industry guru, but I would imagine that most record label contracts say that the label handles marketing.  Isn't the point of having a label that the artist can focus on the music and performing while the label handles the business side (financing, production, marketing, distribution, etc.)?

It seems like some people expect that to be the case... I mean, Axl gets attacked for not doing interviews. Yet he's done quite a few since the album came out. Maybe not every late night TV show or afternoon talk shows. But he's done interviews.

Did you guys hear about the issues Def Leppard is having with Universal Music? Never was a fan of them, but it's kinda telling that even they have issues with the label...





/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

So the label gets the lion's share of record sales, but the artist is responsible for marketing?  I'm no industry guru, but I would imagine that most record label contracts say that the label handles marketing.  Isn't the point of having a label that the artist can focus on the music and performing while the label handles the business side (financing, production, marketing, distribution, etc.)?

True.

But Axl calls 'Rolling Stone' tomorrow and says he wants to sit down for an interview.  They jump on it.  SHit, they probably put him on the cover.

What does the label have to do with any of that?  And why would an artist not take some ownership of the process to promote his own work? 

Axl seems to be all over the map with this stuff.  He likes to position himself as this relentless warrior that stands up for what he believes in.  Yet at the same time seems to shuffle around with his head down a la Charlie Brown while the sad music plays. 

Well...which is it?

[D-GenerationX]

You just proved my point (I think).  Never have I (or other like-minded posters like D-X, Jaeball, and Princess Leia?apologies if I?m incorrectly lumping you guys in with me) complained about how this band sucks.  Ever.  In fact, a lot of my posts talk about wanting this band?with this lineup?to succeed, and how I think they can best achieve that.

Exactly right.  Jarmo loves that strawman argument though. 

And you spend your time knokcing that down for the 50th time instead of actually talking about the original issue.  Every point raised is met with how you are a god damn idiot thinking your "complaining" is anything but a waste of time.  The point you tried to raise is ignored.

You seem to interpret that, and any constructive criticism, as people complaining about ?how the band sucks.?  This is where I?m getting the broad brush from.  But now you seem to be saying constructive criticism is ok?or at least tolerated for the purposes of discussion.

To be honest, I see no evidence of this. 

I've been coming here literally every day for the past 4-5 months.  I have yet to find an area where any sort of criticism is deemed valid in his eyes.  And I have asked him point blank several times to give me one example of what he would consider a valid beef.  He just dances around it and answers your questions with more questions.

At the end of the day, he can't ever bring himself to say "no, that's a fair point".  I just have not seen it.  Have you?  Has anyone?  I have like 400 some posts in 4 months, but I've never made a good point.  So either I just can't catch a break, or he is just simply uninterested in that line of conversation.

[jarmo]

Why are you talking about me when you can't handle a discussion with me?

You ignored my post and pretended nothing happened. And here you are talking about me again!
Attacks on me as a person, instead of what I say. Business as usual. Thank you, drive through.


I've told numerous times that I can understand being "upset" about the lack of a new album. As a fan, I get it. What I haven't seen is any good explanations to the questions/points I brought up....


I've seen a pattern over the years. Some fail to answer simple questions, make little or no sense to me, yet when I ask for clarifications, I'm ignored only to be followed by posts about "he did this, he did that". I've seen a few examples of this behavior. Somebody starts talking, and then goes away, comes back later like nothing happened.



So, D-GenerationX, what do you want to accomplish with the complaining? Just one very simple question.




/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

So, D-GenerationX, what do you want to accomplish with the complaining? Just one very simple question.

That's your false premise.

At no point have I (or anyone) ever taken the position that we are going to make some homerun point on an internet message board during a slow work day that is going to spur Axl or Team Brazil into some change of course.

Its a phony argument, never proposed by anyone but you when you don't like a conversation's tone.  Simple as that.

[jarmo]

It's an honest question!

You do something for a reason. Sometimes the reason is that you want to accomplish something. So, in this case, you don't want to accomplish anything, because you know you can't. At least we know that!

So, why do you do it?




/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

It's an honest question!

You do something for a reason. Sometimes the reason is that you want to accomplish something. So, in this case, you don't want to accomplish anything, because you know you can't. At least we know that!

So, why do you do it?

I am a fan having a conversation about the band with other fans. 

You just don't like the tone of some of it, so you would rather redirect the dialogue to this tired nonsense.  You should change you username to Straw Man.

[jarmo]

I am a fan having a conversation about the band with other fans. 

So the reason why you complain about GN'R is because you like conversations. How come you seem to ignore my posts when I'm having a conversation with you?

I recall asking you why you hail a manager for booking a tour in the 90s while when management does the same in recent years you think it's no big deal because every band does it. Never got a good answer on that one. Surely you must understand that that kind of posts might confuse me. And make somebody think you might not be so "objective" after all..

You just don't like the tone of some of it, so you would rather redirect the dialogue to this tired nonsense.  You should change you username to Straw Man.

I don't like pointless things.

I'm happy with mine, it's my actual name.
Maybe you should change yours to TiredNonsenseX....



And did anybody discuss any of the points I tried to bring up earlier? Not yet right? Only the "he said" stuff was said.... Funny for people wanting to discuss things.


/jarmo

[Ali]

So, D-GenerationX, what do you want to accomplish with the complaining? Just one very simple question.

That's your false premise.

At no point have I (or anyone) ever taken the position that we are going to make some homerun point on an internet message board during a slow work day that is going to spur Axl or Team Brazil into some change of course.

Its a phony argument, never proposed by anyone but you when you don't like a conversation's tone.  Simple as that.

I don't think it is a phony argument, but rather a legitimate question.  Not in the one-time expression of a criticism, but in the reiteration after reiteration of a criticism.  I understand being frustrated by not having more new music.  I understand wondering whether or not the current management team is the best for the job given the lack of managerial experience. 

But, what I don't understand is the need to reiterate over and over again these points.  Once the point is made, what is to be gained by making that point over and over again?  Especially if you admit that you have no control over the situation.

That is one thing that has befuddled me.

Ali

[D-GenerationX]

So the reason why you complain about GN'R is because you like conversations. How come you seem to ignore my posts when I'm having a conversation with you?

I recall asking you why you hail a manager for booking a tour in the 90s while when management does the same in recent years you think it's no big deal because every band does it. Never got a good answer on that one. Surely you must understand that your posts might confuse me.

I have no doubt my posts confuse you.  Of course, I don't have your incentive to tow the company line.

As for the manager discussion, I just don't see the need for daily affirmation that you do, I suppose.  I fail to see how me not here offering e-high fives to Team Brazil matters.  Nor how failing to go out of my way to credit them for doing their stated job means I (or anyone) is some sort of enemy of the state.

You just don't like the tone of some of it, so you would rather redirect the dialogue to this tired nonsense.  You should change you username to Straw Man.

I don't like pointless things.

So the irony is totally lost on you that this constant repetitive lecture I have to endure is the same exact argument you are making towards me and the band's current operation?

Can't I just as easily ask you what you think all this constant correction of what you see as unfair behavior is getting you?  Are you getting the vibe that you are wearing me down?  Or that I am slowly coming around to your way of thinking that everything is swell?

I find that hard to believe.

You don't like pointless things?  These past few posts are a pointless thing.  Nothing new has been said here in the past half hour that we have not covered (in some cases, seemingly word for word) several times now.

Its time to table this particular discussion, I think.  And I suspect others reading you and I going round and round in circles over the same points aren't all that knocked out with it either.

[D-GenerationX]

I don't think it is a phony argument, but rather a legitimate question.  Not in the one-time expression of a criticism, but in the reiteration after reiteration of a criticism.  I understand being frustrated by not having more new music.  I understand wondering whether or not the current management team is the best for the job given the lack of managerial experience. 

But, what I don't understand is the need to reiterate over and over again these points.  Once the point is made, what is to be gained by making that point over and over again?  Especially if you admit that you have no control over the situation.

That is one thing that has befuddled me.

But are the only things you ever talk about in life things you can directly control or influence?  That seems unlikely, in my view.

For example, a fan of a sports team talks about the team's operation with other fellow fans.  But at no time are we under the impression we are the team's general manager.

Under this premise, the only people that can talk politics are politicians.  The only one that can talk movies are directors.

Does that make sense?

[14 Yrs Of Silence]

Part of the frustration is that we don't know if or when.  With CD I always felt it would eventually see the light of day.  Now I'm not so sure, and I'm not so sure Axl cares anymore.  And if he doesn't, thats his choice.  But if thats the case, it would be nice to know so that I don't wait in vain.  A new GN'R album means a lot to us, but if we're never gonna get it, stop keep us on a string.  Throw us a bone!  We can handle the truth.  Enough about giraffes, tell us whats going on.

[14 Yrs Of Silence]

So the label gets the lion's share of record sales, but the artist is responsible for marketing?  I'm no industry guru, but I would imagine that most record label contracts say that the label handles marketing.  Isn't the point of having a label that the artist can focus on the music and performing while the label handles the business side (financing, production, marketing, distribution, etc.)?

True.

But Axl calls 'Rolling Stone' tomorrow and says he wants to sit down for an interview.  They jump on it.  SHit, they probably put him on the cover.

What does the label have to do with any of that?  And why would an artist not take some ownership of the process to promote his own work? 

Axl seems to be all over the map with this stuff.  He likes to position himself as this relentless warrior that stands up for what he believes in.  Yet at the same time seems to shuffle around with his head down a la Charlie Brown while the sad music plays. 

Well...which is it?

Your best post ever.

[D-GenerationX]

Why thank you.

[jarmo]

As for the manager discussion, I just don't see the need for daily affirmation that you do, I suppose.  I fail to see how me not here offering e-high fives to Team Brazil matters.  Nor how failing to go out of my way to credit them for doing their stated job means I (or anyone) is some sort of enemy of the state.

Just answer the question!


You give credit to old managers for doing their job yet fail to do the same for current management. For the same thing. Touring!
Why is that? I'm not asking you to dance. So, just answer the question. It's simple!

Can't I just as easily ask you what you think all this constant correction of what you see as unfair behavior is getting you?  Are you getting the vibe that you are wearing me down?  Or that I am slowly coming around to your way of thinking that everything is swell?

What is me commenting on things I don't agree with getting me? A discussion. I'm just offering a different point of view.

You don't like pointless things?  These past few posts are a pointless thing.  

It's only pointless because you refuse to answer me, I'm trying to understand your logic here. I'm trying to get you to explain things that don't make sense to me.

Because I see a person who says he'll be the first to admit he was wrong, who says he supports the band and all these things, but I see little evidence to back up that kind of statements. Sorry!

Part of the frustration is that we don't know if or when.  With CD I always felt it would eventually see the light of day.  Now I'm not so sure, and I'm not so sure Axl cares anymore.  And if he doesn't, thats his choice.  But if thats the case, it would be nice to know so that I don't wait in vain.  A new GN'R album means a lot to us, but if we're never gonna get it, stop keep us on a string.  Throw us a bone!  We can handle the truth. 

So you're one of those people who assumes that unless you're told something, the opposite must be true?
You need reaffirmation that a musician cares about, his music.

What if you turned it around? Unless he says he doesn't, he does care..... Why doesn't that work for you? It seemed to have worked between 1993 and 2008.... Why not now?



/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

Just answer the question!

You give credit to old managers for doing their job yet fail to do the same for current management. For the same thing. Touring!
Why is that? I'm not asking you to dance. So, just answer the question. It's simple!

What are you looking for here?

But I'm tired of this, so here goes :

Huge, HUGE ups to how Team Brazil has scheduled touring dates for 2014.  Job well done.

We good?

What is me commenting on things I don't agree with getting me? A discussion. I'm just offering a different point of view.

Indeed.

I just think this particular line of questioning has run its course.  We've both made our points, both are unlikely to change our stances.

It's only pointless because you refuse to answer me, I'm trying to understand your logic here. I'm trying to get you to explain things that don't make sense to me.

Because I see a person who says he'll be the first to admit he was wrong, who says he supports the band and all these things, but I see little evidence to back up that kind of statements. Sorry!

So am I because I don't know what to tell you.

We have a difference of opinion on what constitutes "support" and it will never change.  We are better served accepting that reality and moving on to other things.  Re-litigating this particular argument day after day is futile.

So you're one of those people who assumes that unless you're told something, the opposite must be true?
You need reaffirmation that a musician cares about, his music.

He could be making a better case for himself than he has been these past few years though.  I think that's a fair statement.

[jarmo]

What are you looking for here?

Consistency!

But I'm tired of this, so here goes :

Huge, HUGE ups to how Team Brazil has scheduled touring dates for 2014.  Job well done.

We good?

Even with the sarcasm, that's quite big of you.

By the way, I wasn't talking about the upcoming tour, I was talking about past completed tours.... But glad you can give credit for all management people who have completed tours instead of just select ones that you are fond of

We have a difference of opinion on what constitutes "support" and it will never change. 

I personally don't put down something I support for no reason other than I want something else out of it. For example, putting down a band for touring because you want an album, isn't my way of supporting a band.

He could be making a better case for himself than he has been these past few years though.  I think that's a fair statement.

But you've seen the opposite, when he did.... So isn't it fair to say that since that always didn't work to his advantage, it's natural that he might be more cautious this time?



/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

I personally don't put down something I support for no reason other than I want something else out of it. For example, putting down a band for touring because you want an album, isn't my way of supporting a band.

I'd say I find them more mutually exclusive conversations.

If the topic is touring, yes, its obviously encouraging that they been out there just about every 2 years since the last album came out. 

If the topic is a new album, its obviously discouraging news that nothing seems to be on the horizon.

I am of the opinion that you can think both things at the same time and still be a supportive fan.  I see both as just honest assessments of each situation.  Being bummed about one aspect does not affect overall fandom or constitute any sort of lack support of the band overall,  At least in my view.

He could be making a better case for himself than he has been these past few years though.  I think that's a fair statement.

But you've seen the opposite, when he did.... So isn't it fair to say that since that always didn't work to his advantage, it's natural that he might be more cautious this time?

Absolutely fair.

But just think of it as a high school debate team subject, just for example's sake.  The format is that both sides are given the same argument and one is assigned the "for" stance, and the other the "against."

So if the given topic is Axl's interest in future albums, given all he has said and done (or in some cases, not done) since the last album came out, don't you feel the "against" argument is easier one to make?

The "for" argument seems like a way uphill battle.  And I'm not sure that basing that argument around the concept "hey, he could be...never know" is a particularly strong argument.

But try and think of it more as a snapshot in time argument, that time being as of right now.  The "against" argument is not in stone and good for alltime.  But right now?  Yeah, it is the credible argument. 

[Ali]

I don't think it is a phony argument, but rather a legitimate question.  Not in the one-time expression of a criticism, but in the reiteration after reiteration of a criticism.  I understand being frustrated by not having more new music.  I understand wondering whether or not the current management team is the best for the job given the lack of managerial experience. 

But, what I don't understand is the need to reiterate over and over again these points.  Once the point is made, what is to be gained by making that point over and over again?  Especially if you admit that you have no control over the situation.

That is one thing that has befuddled me.

But are the only things you ever talk about in life things you can directly control or influence?  That seems unlikely, in my view.

For example, a fan of a sports team talks about the team's operation with other fellow fans.  But at no time are we under the impression we are the team's general manager.

Under this premise, the only people that can talk politics are politicians.  The only one that can talk movies are directors.

Does that make sense?

No, that's not the point I'm making at all.  I'm not talking about only talking about things you can control or influence.  I'm talking about not talking over and over about the same points when I can't control anything.  That's what I don't get.  I understand making the point and getting your perspective and your frustrations out.  I don't understand doing that same thing over and over again.

Ali