Guns N' Roses Facebook Update

[jarmo]

You forgot the show in 2012.

Mid-week show, that one.  The Camden show was on a Saturday, so it didn't matter that he took the stage at 11:20 (which he did).

Still, they came back to your city.  

This would be a perfect example of the unreliable thing.  There is literally no other major band I would have these concerns about, seeing a midweek show.  Literally anyone else would have me back home by midnight or soon after.  Axl would be 5 songs into his set at that time. 

Last summer the US shows started between 10 and 11pm. Except the surprise show that was later as well as the Rocklahoma festival.
These were mostly club shows.

Before that the arena shows in Australia started between 8 and 9pm. In India in 2012, around 7pm. In Las Vegas, around 11pm.

The problem here is that you can hide behind that forever.  To you, its still out of buonds to criticize 2002 because we don't have "the facts".  And so long as "the facts" are never forthcoming, it excuses it for all criticism?  Yeah, in fantasyland, maybe.

Fantasyland? Is that where all the unanswered questions go?

If another riot, storm off, or no show happened, you are damn right I'd be right back here asking you to comment on it.  I don't think a comment would be forthcoming, but after the enormous umbrage you have taken at the mere suggestion, you best believe I'd ask the question.  Because it would be my closing argument.

You sure are into asking a lot of questions when in reality you avoid to answer simple ones....
Funny for a person who's proud to announce he'd be the first to admit he was wrong. But yet, has failed to do so when questioned:

As I said, saying somebody will never manage to do something and then belittling them when they do...
You claim they're unreliable and then say "Oh, everybody manages that" when they prove you wrong. How is that supportive? Still not understanding it.

Is it so difficult to say something like "that's pretty cool, they did something I doubted they could do. Kudos to the band"?
No matter if you think it's the least they should do. Because it's an improvement on something you've been complaining about for a while.

And then what happened?  They pitched a fit and had all sort of problems with the presentation.  Wasn't happy with the songs selected.  Sent out a pissy release about it, resulting in GNR being the only of those concerts VH-1 did that will never get a replay.

We all react differently. Maybe you'd be happy if somebody did something they weren't supposed to and created a situation where you got blamed for it?

Was "complaints, complaints, complaints" a good move?  How about Fernando calling us racists?  Is that a smart play you'd expect from professional management of a major act?  How about picking fights with message boards in general?  Is that the type of thing band's management does?

Talk about taking things out of context!

First issue, a poster comments on Beta's PERSONAL instagram account. It's not some "officialGNRmanagement" account. PERSONAL account! Not GN'R business! Once again, take responsibility for your own actions. You "troll" GN'R members or management's accounts, don't expect some kind of special prize.

Second issue, I didn't get the memo where I was called a racist. Once again, you look for reasons to dislike management. Did they single you out?

You never heard of artists speaking out against certain sites?

You sure convinced everybody that GN'R had better management in the past with those examples. The manager responded to a comment on her instegram and then another called out certain close minded people for posting hateful things on a forum. Damn, that must really mean they got no clue!

You really victimize yourself way too much in order to find things to dislike.
Nobody here in their right mind would be offended if I said "there's some hateful people on the Internet that are racist". Because you wouldn't feel I was speaking about you. But if somebody associated with the band makes a similar statement on a fan site, suddenly everybody there feel insulted and labeled a racist. Amazing.

The "objective super fans" who are quick to criticize the band sure get their feelings hurt and offended easily. What's next, Axl shouldn't use the word fuck anymore?



Yeah, those comments are so much more worse than "13 Tuesdays"....Oh, and working for a reunion. That's how management should be? Doing things against the artist's wishes?





/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

Yeah, those comments are so much more worse than "13 Tuesdays"....Oh, and working for a reunion. That's how management should be?

No, the "13 Tuesdays" and "it might just show up one day" was one of the more ridiculous things I ever heard floated by a major act's manager.

In fact, I loved that open letter Axl put out in March 2007.  It was one of the rare times he seemed to offer updates, comment on how things were mishandled, and tell us he was trying to do better.

Stuff that only helps him.  And it takes like 5 minutes of his time.  As I recall, reaction was very positive.

The reunion thing?  I look at it like this.  Any new manager on the scene with even a scintilla of business acumen is going to ask Axl about it.  No other idea makes more business sense, and its not even close.  So you ask once, Axl makes a face, and then you don't bring it up again.  But any manager that gets the gig is going to ask that.  It would be a dereliction of his duty not to.

The only one that won't is Beta.  But she is also not some industry veteran.  Their relationship is more personal, so she knows that's a dead end.

I will say that any competent manager asks the reunion question once, then never again.  It would be foolish for him/her to not even ask, but equally foolish to persist with it once Axl says there is just no way in hell.

[jarmo]

No, the "13 Tuesdays" and "it might just show up one day" was one of the more ridiculous things I ever heard floated by a major act's manager.

How do you explain that then? I thought you were going on and on about how bad current management is.

In fact, I loved that open letter Axl put out in March 2007.  It was one of the rare times he seemed to offer updates, comment on how things were mishandled, and tell us he was trying to do better.

Stuff that only helps him.  And it takes like 5 minutes of his time.  As I recall, reaction was very positive.

It was positive until he was called a liar for not delivering on that date in March.

The reunion thing?  I look at it like this.  Any new manager on the scene with even a scintilla of business acumen is going to ask Axl about it.  No other idea makes more business sense, and its not even close.  So you ask once, Axl makes a face, and then you don't bring it up again.  But any manager that gets the gig is going to ask that.  It would be a dereliction of his duty not to.

And you know this is what happened?

"All these managers, they all believe in one thing: sell a reunion tour and get their commission. It's just a phone call. It's a half a day's ? work, or however long they want to keep the bidding war going. They get their commission and they don't care if it falls on its face."

I will say that any competent manager asks the reunion question once, then never again.  It would be foolish for him/her to not even ask, but equally foolish to persist with it once Axl says there is just no way in hell.

I would say then you don't know anything about your client and I don't consider that professional at all.
That's the difference between now and then. Knowledge of the client.

Can you please answer my question now? That has nothing to do with management, who was better or who called who what? Thanks!

As I said, saying somebody will never manage to do something and then belittling them when they do...
You claim they're unreliable and then say "Oh, everybody manages that" when they prove you wrong. How is that supportive? Still not understanding it.

Is it so difficult to say something like "that's pretty cool, they did something I doubted they could do. Kudos to the band"?
No matter if you think it's the least they should do. Because it's an improvement on something you've been complaining about for a while.

/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

How do you explain that then? I thought you were going on and on about how bad current management is.

The current management has serious credibility issues with the fans and not a great track record of delivering much of anything for us.

Some dipshit comment Merck made 8 years ago now really has no bearing on the job they are doing now, which is a mixed bag, at absolute best.

It was positive until he was called a liar for not delivering on that date in March.

I got my dates mixed up.  I thought the letter was in March.  It was actually in late 2006 and hinted a potential March 2007 date, right?

Initial reaction was positive though.  I didn't see any blowback until Axl missed his proposed March 2007 date by a full year and a half plus.  If it had come out in say, June 2007 instead of March, people would have rolled with it.  But another 18 months to get tracks that didn't sound a hell of a lot different than the leaks we had all already had for a year was a bit hard to swallow for most folks.

And you know this is what happened?

No, I said its what any competent manager would do.

A manger's main responsibility is to maximize opportunity for his client.  Simply put, nothing would be better business than a reunion.  They would be delinquent in their duty as manager to not ask at least once.

I would say then you don't know anything about your client and I don't consider that professional at all.
That's the difference between now and then. Knowledge of the client.

The difference between then and now is competence.  And by then, I mean 1987-1994.  By now, I mean 2001 or so onwards.

The best management they ever had was either Niven or Goldstien, take your pick.  No one that has come after has done anywhere near as good a job.  I highly doubt you'll agree, because you have been conditioned to hate them both as they are on the enemies list now.  But by any objective standard, no one post Goldstein has done as good a job.

Can you please answer my question now?  That has nothing to do with management who was better or who called who what?  Thanks!

As I said, saying somebody will never manage to do something and then belittling them when they do...
You claim they're unreliable and then say "Oh, everybody manages that" when they prove you wrong. How is that supportive? Still not understanding it.

Is it so difficult to say something like "that's pretty cool, they did something I doubted they could do. Kudos to the band"?
No matter if you think it's the least they should do. Because it's an improvement on something you've been complaining about for a while.

What is this, 4th grade?  Are we handing out participation trophies here?

As I've said, multiple times now, if they take the stage on time and do a tour without incident, its a good thing.  Its also an expected thing that doesn't warrant excessive praise.  The fact you think it does is really just an indictment of how shitty things used to be. 

You seem to be angling for some answer where I'm going to say that since the last leg was incident free, all is forgiven.  Its not going to happen.  Nor is it terribly relevant.  Its a great sign for the future if they keep it up.  And if they do, I will say so.  They start hitting the stage at 11:30 again, I'm going to say that too.  So be ready.

[jarmo]

The current management has serious credibility issues with the fans and not a great track record of delivering much of anything for us.

 

Who made you spokesperson for all fans?

No, I said its what any competent manager would do.

A manger's main responsibility is to maximize opportunity for his client.  Simply put, nothing would be better business than a reunion.  They would be delinquent in their duty as manager to not ask at least once.

A competent manager wouldn't go behind his client's back especially if he/she knew the client would never do what he/she is trying to achieve.
It's pretty simple thing to fix. You sit down and ask the client, what do you want to do?


Would you say the manager of Roger Waters has failed? Since Pink Floyd could make a lot of money if they reunited.
How about the manager(s) of the surviving members of Led Zeppelin? All these failures as managers who can't make these cash grab reunions happen...

The difference between then and now is competence.  And by then, I mean 1987-1994.  By now, I mean 2001 or so onwards.

That's funny. Are you saying people like Doc McGee and Irving Azoff are incompetent?

The best management they ever had was either Niven or Goldstien, take your pick.  No one that has come after has done anywhere near as good a job. 

Based on what? Shows got canceled, there were riots and lots of drama on their watch.
Let me guess, records released.

And since they are so highly successful managers. What re they doing today? I don't know, I'm curious. If you can title yourself "the best manager GN'R ever had", shouldn't you be somebody managing some huge band/artist today?

Maybe they are and I don't know because of my "list". 

I highly doubt you'll agree, because you have been conditioned to hate them both as they are on the enemies list now.

I have what now?
Where do you get this stuff? It's funny!

What is this, 4th grade?  Are we handing out participation trophies here?

Again with the smart ass comments.

As I've said, multiple times now, if they take the stage on time and do a tour without incident, its a good thing.  Its also an expected thing that doesn't warrant excessive praise.  The fact you think it does is really just an indictment of how shitty things used to be. 

It warrants praise from you! That's all!
For once.

Nobody's expecting big fluffy clouds to appear or rainbows to shoot out of your....

Just a positive sentence giving some credit without any smart ass comments or any buts or ifs attached.
That's all I'm after Mr "I'll admit I was wrong". A very simple request.

You can't keep saying things are bad when in fact they improved and then refuse to acknowledge it. Not here.
Don't be scared!

They start hitting the stage at 11:30 again, I'm going to say that too.  So be ready.

They might, in Las Vegas. It's not a matinee. Sorry.
If the venue even lists a starting time at 11:45pm, don't expect to be in bed by 10pm...



/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

Who made you spokesperson for all fans?

We took a vote.  You were in the can.

Would you say the manager of Roger Waters has failed? Since Pink Floyd could make a lot of money if they reunited.  How about the manager(s) of the surviving members of Led Zeppelin? All these failures as managers who can't make these cash grab reunions happen...

Well, Rogers and Waters hate each other.  Its the only other band I've seen with the sheer level of dysfunction found with our boys.

That said, they still took the stage together one more time.  Axl wouldn't even enter the state of Ohio, much less attend the HOF to be honored with the others.

In terms of the job Pink Floyd and Roger Waters' respective management did after their break-up?  Better than Team Brazil.  Frankly, I would not invite the comparison, but you felt the need to, so there you are.

That's funny. Are you saying people like Doc McGee and Irving Azoff are incompetent?

I don't think their body of work in the role of GNR management stands up to what Niven or Goldstien accomplished in the same big chair. 

You do?  Care to elaborate?

Based on what? Shows got canceled, there were riots and lots of drama on their watch.
Let me guess, records released.

And since they are so highly successful managers. What re they doing today? I don't know, I'm curious. If you can title yourself "the best manager GN'R ever had", shouldn't you be somebody managing some huge band/artist today?

James Carville got Bill Clinton elected in 1992.  Never did another one.  Does this invalidate his work?

What did Niven and Goldstein do?  Got albums released, several successful world tours in major venues, a PPV concert.

The current crew?  Hey, how's that DVD coming?  Let me guess..."soon".  Right after that 'Better' video drops.

I highly doubt you'll agree, because you have been conditioned to hate them both as they are on the enemies list now.

I have what now?
Where do you get this stuff? It's funny!

You would never show public support for anyone's on Axl's naughty list.  Knock it off.

What is this, 4th grade?  Are we handing out participation trophies here?

Again with the smart ass comments.

It's a knack.  You either have it or you don't.

You can't keep saying things are bad when in fact they improved and then refuse to acknowledge it. Not here.
Don't be scared!

Things have improved.  Logically, for something to "improve" its because it needed improvement, yes?

You want to throw a parade for when they show up for announced gigs.  Why should that be news?  Well, we don't talk about that.

They start hitting the stage at 11:30 again, I'm going to say that too.  So be ready.

They might, in Las Vegas. It's not a matinee. Sorry.
If the venue even lists a starting time at 11:45pm, don't expect to be in bed by 10pm...

I agree Vegas is different.  Different town, different mindset.

Camden, NJ?  Really not much reason to come on at 11:20 PM unless its a conscious decision for your own goofball reasons.

And I got some more news for you.  If Axl truly cared about his fans, he wouldn't leave us to be walking to our cars at 2 AM in freakin' Camden, NJ.

[Siamese Democracy]

My heavens you too!   When Axl speaks, it really creates a stir!   

[GypsySoul]

A manger's main responsibility is to maximize opportunity for his client.  Simply put, nothing would be better business than a reunion.  They would be delinquent in their duty as manager to not ask at least once.

The difference between then and now is competence.  And by then, I mean 1987-1994.  By now, I mean 2001 or so onwards.

So from around 2001 to present, you believe that Beta had/has no idea what lengths her predecessors have gone to in regards to the reunion issue nor does she have any idea what Axl's responses/reactions was to her predecessors tactics?? 

Seriously??   

[D-GenerationX]

My heavens you too!   When Axl speaks, it really creates a stir!   

Hahaha

Its all in fun.  Little levity to pass a work day.

[D-GenerationX]

A manger's main responsibility is to maximize opportunity for his client.  Simply put, nothing would be better business than a reunion.  They would be delinquent in their duty as manager to not ask at least once.

The difference between then and now is competence.  And by then, I mean 1987-1994.  By now, I mean 2001 or so onwards.

So from around 2001 to present, you believe that Beta had/has no idea what lengths her predecessors have gone to in regards to the reunion issue nor does she have any idea what Axl's responses/reactions was to her predecessors tactics?? 

Seriously??   

No, I'm not saying that at all.

Jarmo was asking about those other evil bastards before her who all tried to push a reunion on Axl.  Of course they did.  Its the obvious business move as a manager.

Beta, knowing him personally as she does, knows that's a non-starter. 

[jarmo]

Who made you spokesperson for all fans?

We took a vote.  You were in the can.

Didn't expect anything less from the spokesperson for all fans.

Well, Rogers and Waters hate each other.  Its the only other band I've seen with the sheer level of dysfunction found with our boys.

That said, they still took the stage together one more time. 

But not for the ultimate measure of how great the manager is, a big paycheck for a reunion tour. So it must be considered a failure?

Axl wouldn't even enter the state of Ohio, much less attend the HOF to be honored with the others.

And this is the fault of management because?

I don't think their body of work in the role of GNR management stands up to what Niven or Goldstien accomplished in the same big chair. 

You do?  Care to elaborate?

I think your "perfect" managers were the right people at the right time. If you look at being managers as a career, I'd say the two others have been pretty successful at their jobs. Excluding GN'R.

James Carville got Bill Clinton elected in 1992.  Never did another one.  Does this invalidate his work?

What did Niven and Goldstein do?  Got albums released, several successful world tours in major venues, a PPV concert.

The current crew?  Hey, how's that DVD coming?  Let me guess..."soon".  Right after that 'Better' video drops.

Tours? But a band is supposed to tour. It's no big deal! How is that an accomplishment? Everybody does it! I can't believe you'd list that as something worth mentioning. Not for you of all people.
Pay per view? Yeah, we had those. LA 2011, Chicago 2012, Las Vegas radio 2012..... No big deal to you.

Come on! You can't be serious. Are you?

Suddenly a tour is enough to be credited to a manager as something remarkable. But when GN'R did it in recent years, it's not.
You make no sense!

I think everybody can see how incoherent you are. Maybe the problem is your bias against the present.
 

Do you realize you're idolizing the managers who were there when the old band imploded?  You think managers should try to reunite the old band, that makes sense to you. But according to your "list", the two best managers were the ones that were there when that band line up ceased to exist. Ironic.

Also, wasn't Doug the manager still at some point in the early 2000s? So he was there for part of the period when GN'R didn't release albums. And there was a tour that was canceled in 2001... Sorry to have to tell you this... See there's been issues in the past too!

You would never show public support for anyone's on Axl's naughty list.  Knock it off.

You would never say anything nice about the current. Knock it off.

I respect what those managers accomplished with the band.
You on the other hand have a hard time giving anything current any credit.

It's a knack.  You either have it or you don't.

You have a knack for not making any sense. I'll give you credit for that.

Things have improved.  Logically, for something to "improve" its because it needed improvement, yes?

If mankind didn't have a wish to improve, we still wouldn't have invented the wheel.
640k of memory should be enough... No need to improve.

You want to throw a parade for when they show up for announced gigs.

No, but shouldn't you be man enough to admit you were wrong? Instead of a smart ass....

And I got some more news for you.  If Axl truly cared about his fans, he wouldn't leave us to be walking to our cars at 2 AM in freakin' Camden, NJ.

I was there. It was a great show!

My heavens you too! 

When I see somebody as incoherent and confused as this person, you just gotta shake your head.

A tour in 1992 = Yay, the band toured! Amazing!
A tour in 2012 = So what if they tour? Everybody does it.

What we got here is failure to make sense...



/jarmo

[Siamese Democracy]

I was at the Camden show and had a wonderful time with my friend.  GNR shows end late.   If you haven't been following the band for the last 20+ years let me reiterate! They end late.  If they played for 90 minutes, you'd be out at 12:30.  They play longer than that.  If you are seeing them on a weekday, you better take off from work the next day.  This is how it is. 

I highly doubt the reason for no new record has anything to do with the Lebeis family.  Do you really think they keep Axl from recording?   Do they tear up the pages where he writes the lyrics?  Do they lock Axl out of the recording studios?   I highly doubt it. 


I will say and you may or may not agree but for me this holds true.  When I see Axl sing live, no matter what song, it is the most enjoyable form of live entertainment I can possibly experience in the year 2014.  The scale of fun is a 10 out of 10.  That is what is special to me.   

[D-GenerationX]

I respect what those managers accomplished with the band.
You on the other hand have a hard time giving anything current any credit.

Stacked up side by side, I don't think its much of a debate.

We just have a fundamental difference on that one.  Certainly not one that's going to be solved with a few more zingers.

[D-GenerationX]

I was at the Camden show and had a wonderful time with my friend.  GNR shows end late.   If you haven't been following the band for the last 20+ years let me reiterate! They end late.  If they played for 90 minutes, you'd be out at 12:30.  They play longer than that.  If you are seeing them on a weekday, you better take off from work the next day.  This is how it is.

No, that's not how is.  That's how it is to see this particular band.  Every other band seems to operate on a more realistic schedule.

If there is another major act that says hey, so you have to take off work the next day, man the fuck up...I don't know them.

If your argument that its "how it is", there would be more examples of this sort of thing, no?  Its just how it is with this band.  Its not normal.

As for the show, yeah, I thought it was good.  I was able to walk right up to the side of the stage for the first 10 or so songs.  I thought he was very good that night.

 

I highly doubt the reason for no new record has anything to do with the Lebeis family.  Do you really think they keep Axl from recording?   Do they tear up the pages where he writes the lyrics?  Do they lock Axl out of the recording studios?   I highly doubt it.

No, I agree with you.  That part is on Axl.

Other than maybe a new act on the way up, I can't imagine a manager dictates that sort of thing.  Certainly not anyone on Axl's level at this point in his career. 

[Siamese Democracy]

You seem to know your GNR.  I am not sure how you miscalculated what time you would be home?!!   I walked I to that particular show around 10:30 pm.  I also paid a lot to park close to the venue because I hate Camden! 

[D-GenerationX]

You seem to know your GNR.  I am not sure how you miscalculated what time you would be home?!!   I walked I to that particular show around 10:30 pm.  I also paid a lot to park close to the venue because I hate Camden! 

Camden is rough, no doubt.  First time there to see Aerosmith, took a wrong turn on the way out.  Lost in Camden in the middle of the night : NO GOOD.

But I thought that venue was perfect for GNR.  The way you can hang in the lobby and have some drinks and then wander in at showtime.  Perfect.

If they come back to the area, I very much hope its there.

[Siamese Democracy]

Off topic my friend but if the come back to the Garden State, House of blues Atlantic City is a must.  Stay at the Showboat for the night.  Trust me you will have a blast. 

[JAEBALL]

You know what? Every thread... every discussion... all comes back to the same things....we are all to blame for that I guess


but thats all  because "Guns N Roses" has put out 12 songs in 20 years.... bottom line ...

That's what sucks .... do i lose sleep at night? no ... but it sure would be nice... and the fact that more doesnt seem to be any closer to coming out...


btw... i was very pissed i couldnt make it to the House of Blues AC !!!!!!!!!! considering I am there all the time ! but had a wedding that weekend

[sofine11]

You know what? Every thread... every discussion... all comes back to the same things....we are all to blame for that I guess


but thats all  because "Guns N Roses" has put out 12 songs in 20 years.... bottom line ...

That's what sucks .... do i lose sleep at night? no ... but it sure would be nice... and the fact that more doesnt seem to be any closer to coming out...


btw... i was very pissed i couldnt make it to the House of Blues AC !!!!!!!!!! considering I am there all the time ! but had a wedding that weekend

You're not wrong. 

15 songs in 23 years, and you would think by some of the responses we get that fans are asking the world of the band when rallying for the next album.  Huh. 

[JAEBALL]

Nobody would give a shit if Axl tweeted about miming or giraffes... which wouldnt turn in to a conversation about Slash, or Beta, or Stephanie Seymour...who is married and has 18 kids now...if there was a dvd , a video and album to talk about and enjoy instead