Guns N' Roses Facebook Update

[D-GenerationX]

You're avoiding the questions....

My stance is, hasn't changed, if you come to a Guns N' Roses fan site, you're there to support the band. Not to endlessly whine about things you have no control over. It's not constructive, productive or anything, just boring.

As I said, would you like to surround yourself with people who whine day in and and day out?

I do support the band.  I have no answer to your phony argument because I don't accept your false premise that I don't, but that's life in the big city.

Put it this way.  If I'm the worst "not a true fan" of this operation you come across, you've done well.

[sofine11]

You're avoiding the questions....

My stance is, hasn't changed, if you come to a Guns N' Roses fan site, you're there to support the band. Not to endlessly whine about things you have no control over. It's not constructive, productive or anything, just boring.

As I said, would you like to surround yourself with people who whine day in and and day out?

I do support the band.  I have no answer to your phony argument because I don't accept your false premise that I don't, but that's life in the big city.

Put it this way.  If I'm the worst "not a true fan" of this operation you come across, you've done well.

Ya know what's funny?  In my circle of friends, they know me as a die hard GNR fan of both the old and new lineups, and an avid supporter of Chinese Democracy.  I'm sure the same goes for you D-X.   Only here do we get scrutinized for wishing that Axl and the current management were doing better in terms of putting out more music, connecting with the fans and moving forward. 

See, but that's the catch here, isn't it? Not only do you have to be 100% on board with every single step the band takes, or doesn't take, you also have to be absolutely in love with management as well, despite their obvious inability to negotiate another record release, and connect with the fans in a non-condescending way.

[jarmo]

You know what's funny? Changing the subject when you can't answer questions.

You guys support the band, but how come you hide it so well?

Only here do we get scrutinized for wishing that Axl and the current management were doing better in terms of putting out more music, connecting with the fans and moving forward. 

And here you are condemning the band for communicating with the fans and thanking us, even those people who aren't really fans.

I need to repeat myself because for some reason it doesn't register with you: You think you're the only fan who wants GN'R to put out more music? I'd say 99.9% of the fans on this message board would love that. The difference is that most of us don't think whining about it will change a single thing. Other than make every fucking thread into your personal WhineFest about how there's no news about the album or how shows don't matter.

We fucking get it. You want an album.

"Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?" that's what it reminds me of. We're not gonna get there faster just because you sit in the backseat asking every two minutes.




/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

Ya know what's funny?  In my circle of friends, they know me as a die hard GNR fan of both the old and new lineups, and an avid supporter of Chinese Democracy.  I'm sure the same goes for you D-X.   Only here do we get scrutinized for wishing that Axl and the current management were doing better in terms of putting out more music, connecting with the fans and moving forward. 

See, but that's the catch here, isn't it? Not only do you have to be 100% on board with every single step the band takes, or doesn't take, you also have to be absolutely in love with management as well, despite their obvious inability to negotiate another record release, and connect with the fans in a non-condescending way.

Spot on.

And yes, I have found the exact same thing.  To the people I know in real life, I am a GNR fanatic.  Everyone knows they have been my favorite band for at least 25 years.  I wear a GNR baseball cap everywhere I go.  Its the only hat of any kind I have worn for at least 5-6 years.  I have 2 yet to be worn spares at all times for when one needs to be replaced.

Then I come here.  Here, I'm "not a true fan".  I'm "not a supporter".

Oh yeah?  Bullshit.  To label me anything but a diehard fan of the band, both classic line-up and current incarnation, is a totally dishonest argument.  

If you are looking for a guy just waving the pom-poms, yeah, I'm not that guy.  That might be how you define a "true fan" or "supporter", but I don't share that view.  And if that means I'm some sort of lesser fan in your eyes, so be it.  But that's your problem, not mine.

[D-GenerationX]

I need to repeat myself because for some reason it doesn't register with you: You think you're the only fan who wants GN'R to put out more music? I'd say 99.9% of the fans on this message board would love that. The difference is that most of us don't think whining about it will change a single thing. Other than make every fucking thread into your personal WhineFest about how there's no news about the album or how shows don't matter.

OK, captain our captain...just what the fuck are we supposed to talk about?

You announce a tour date and 47 straight people respond with "Cool.  Can't wait"?

That's some stimulating conversation we are missing out on.

No one is under any delusion Axl gives a fuck what we think.  That's another of your tiresome strawmen you float in hopes of quashing anything other that rah-rah bullshit.

So, at this point, I think its fair to ask what makes YOU think that telling us to shut the fuck up and fall in line is going to get you anywhere?  Answer the question!  Why can't you answer the question!  ANSWER MY QUESTION!!!

[sofine11]

You know what's funny? Changing the subject when you can't answer questions.

You guys support the band, but how come you hide it so well?

You know Jarmo, you do that a lot, accusing people of not answering your questions.  I'm starting to think that they are, however, you're just not getting the answers you want.  I really don't know what to tell accept that's on you.

And here you are condemning the band for communicating with the fans and thanking us, even those people who aren't really fans.

I need to repeat myself because for some reason it doesn't register with you: You think you're the only fan who wants GN'R to put out more music? I'd say 99.9% of the fans on this message board would love that. The difference is that most of us don't think whining about it will change a single thing. Other than make every fucking thread into your personal WhineFest about how there's no news about the album or how shows don't matter.

We fucking get it. You want an album.

"Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?" that's what it reminds me of. We're not gonna get there faster just because you sit in the backseat asking every two minutes.

So, in other words, even if the next album is at the top of your list, do not talk about it or act openly disappointed when steps are taken that will inevitably delay it because, you know, it will not make it a reality any sooner.  I'm sorry, but that just doesn't seem very realistic.  I mean, isn't that pretty much the name of the game on a message board?  That is, discussing your opinions about, in our case, Guns N' Roses?  

It just seems like you're asking an awful lot of people who simply disagree with your mindset, and will cause you a great deal of pretty much unavoidable stress, especially when you consider how this operation is currently running and who is running it.

[D-GenerationX]

You know Jarmo, you do that a lot, accusing people of not answering your questions.  I'm starting to think that they are, however, you're just not getting the answers you want.  I really don't know what to tell accept that's on you.

Of course that's what going on.  He doesn't so much ask questions as list our sins and demand we repent.  That's the "answer" he's after.

[jarmo]

So, at this point, I think its fair to ask what makes YOU think that telling us to shut the fuck up and fall in line is going to get you anywhere?  Answer the question!  Why can't you answer the question!  ANSWER MY QUESTION!!!

You of all people think it's fair to ask me questions after you've avoided plenty of questions aimed at yourself? That's amazing.
Keep trying to make fun of me. It's been tried before by other "real fans" who lack answers.


What does it do? It creates a more positive and constructive environment.

You claim you only post about things you see. Well then you only see specific things, things you can point out that are "wrong". That there's no new album for example. We all see that too, but we don't focus on it unlike you.

What kind of supportive fan points out that the band is unreliable only to make fun of them for concluding tours without being unreliable?

You know Jarmo, you do that a lot, accusing people of not answering your questions.  I'm starting to think that they are, however, you're just not getting the answers you want.  I really don't know what to tell accept that's on you.

No, you just ignore the questions.

Here's one: Why is it so difficult to see you say something nice about the band besides something like "my friends think I'm a hardcore fan"?

So, in other words, even if the next album is at the top of your list, do not talk about it or act openly disappointed when steps are taken that will inevitably delay it because, you know, it will not make it a reality any sooner.  I'm sorry, but that just doesn't seem very realistic.  I mean, isn't that pretty much the name of the game on a message board?  That is, discussing your opinions about, in our case, Guns N' Roses?  

Your opinion on GN'R: It sucks being a fan.
How far off am I?

It just seems like you're asking an awful lot of people who simply disagree with your mindset, and will cause you a great deal of pretty much unavoidable stress, especially when you consider how this operation is currently running and who is running it.

All I'm trying to do is to understand what you get out of the constant whining and how come it's so difficult for you to find anything to be happy about in 2014?
It just sounds very depressing to me to constantly think everything sucks.

I just don't get it. "Right, time to login onto the GN'R fan site to complain about there not being an album today either"...



So, any plans to attend any of the 2014 shows announced so far?



/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

You claim you only post about things you see. Well then you only see specific things, things you can point out that are "wrong". That there's no new album for example. We all see that too, but we don't focus on it unlike you.

What kind of supportive fan points out that the band is unreliable only to make fun of them for concluding tours without being unreliable?

We are back to how you define "support".  To you, its rah-rah all the time.  That's not support.  That's delusion.  But if you are going to hold firm on that, you are in for a lifetime of "just not getting it", I suspect.

I have made the example several times about the upcoming tour.  A new song or two, that's the discussion.  Shit, a new order of the same 21-23 song set would be the discussion.  I will be very active in that discussion if that's how it plays out.  And, suddenly, I guess I will cease not being "supportive".  Bully for me.

But let's make something clear right now.  If its the same exact setlist with no new changes, that is getting discussed as well.  It won't be as interesting or have as much staying power as actually talking about something new, but it will be said.  By me, and others.  Might as well make your peace with it.

[jarmo]

You claim you only post about things you see. Well then you only see specific things, things you can point out that are "wrong". That there's no new album for example. We all see that too, but we don't focus on it unlike you.

What kind of supportive fan points out that the band is unreliable only to make fun of them for concluding tours without being unreliable?

We are back to how you define "support".  To you, its rah-rah all the time.  That's not support.  That's delusion.  But if you are going to hold firm on that, you are in for a lifetime of "just not getting it", I suspect.

No, really. Explain to me how that action was supportive of the band.
You did it, so please... Answer how your actions were supportive of GN'R.

You might be right, maybe our definitions of supportive are different. Because to me, putting down something somebody accomplished that you claim they couldn't accomplish, isn't supportive... But, you might see it differently, so please explain so I can understand your point of view on this particular matter.

I have made the example several times about the upcoming tour.  A new song or two, that's the discussion.  Shit, a new order of the same 21-23 song set would be the discussion.  I will be very active in that discussion if that's how it plays out.  And, suddenly, I guess I will cease not being "supportive".  Bully for me.

Ok, so you want them to play something new. Nothing wrong with that.
Everybody has their "optimal dream setlist" and favorite songs....




/jarmo

[sofine11]

Jarmo, really.  What do I like about Guns N' Roses?  Here: My copies of Appetite For Destruction, Use Your Illsusion, Chinese Democracy, the shows I went to in '02, '06, '10, '11 & '12.  I like all of those.  They're all great.

The fact that you put fans like us in a position to defend our status as a fucking "true fan" is absolutely ludicrous and does absolutely nothing for whatever cause you believe you're waving the flag for.  

Here's the facts: Even during the silent years 03-05, behind the scenes the band was creating and building towards something great.  Hell even for all of Azoff's evil intentions, he was the one who worked out a deal that got the album out, and made it a reality in our hands and ears.  The truth is, for all of their love for Axl, Team Brazil is an unproven management team and they afford us no reason to believe they are capable of negotiating the next album's release and moving Guns N' Roses forward in 2014.  

Sporadic touring of the hits is fine for what it is.  I'm sure the shows will be great.  That said, I'm not ashamed to say I want more for Guns N' Roses. You should too.

[jarmo]

Jarmo, really.  What do I like about Guns N' Roses?  Here: My copies of Appetite For Destruction, Use Your Illsusion, Chinese Democracy, the shows I went to in '02, '06, '10, '11 & '12.  I like all of those.  They're all great.

 

The fact that you put fans like us in position to defend our status as a fucking "true fan" is absolutely ludicrous and does absolutely nothing for whatever cause you believe waving the flag for.

I'll explain something to you. And maybe you won't like this.

The thing I do is, if I see something I don't agree with, a post, a behavior or something, I say it.
Also, if you say something, I expect you to stand for it. If I call you out on posting something ridiculous, I expect you to be able to stand for what you said. It's pretty simple. If you don't stand for what you post/say, why are you doing it?

The truth is, for all of their love for Axl, Team Brazil is an unproven management team and they afford us no reason to believe they are capable of negotiating the next album's release and move Guns N' Roses forward in 2014.

You make claims like this, and you have nothing to back it up other than assumptions. What exactly do you know about what they do and if it works?

Are you aware of how many management teams were let go between "The Spaghetti Incident?" and Chinese Democracy? How come not all of them succeeded in what you consider a success? You seem to make the kind of statement that GN'R needs better managers, when in reality lots of managers have come and gone.

Would you rather have a manager that the artist doesn't trust and doesn't know what the artists wants, or not?




/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

No, really. Explain to me how that action was supportive of the band.
You did it, so please... Answer how your actions were supportive of GN'R.

Which action?

How about going ahead and buying a ticket to the first available show in my area since he no showed on me?  Which I did, on the first day of the pre-sale.

What that "supportive"?  I'd argue it was.  I'd sure dispute its me being some hater.

You might be right, maybe our definitions of supportive are different. Because to me, putting down something somebody accomplished that you claim they couldn't accomplish, isn't supportive... But, you might see it differently, so please explain so I can understand your point of view on this particular matter.

Well, we differ here.

You think its a herculean feat to schedule shows and then play them.  I consider that the job.  Its the business they've chosen.  And I'd argue the fact that we have to go out of our way to laud them for meeting their meeting their commitments is due to their failure to do so in the past.  Is there some other reason we should pop the champagne for a tour that concludes without a no show, storm off, or riot?  That's how it should be.  That's the job.

Ok, so you want them to play something new. Nothing wrong with that.

Truthfully, not exactly.  Yes, I'd love to hear a new song or two.  But I am not blind to the pitfalls of trying something brand new for a crowd that doesn't know it.  And that's fine.  (thought I would point out that they did allude to new songs being played)

Frankly, I can roll with simply a new order of songs and few substitutions here and there.  I'm talking really small time stuff, like swapping out an AFD song or two for a UYI song or two.  Or changing the handful of songs they play from CD.

The bottom line is that I just want to see something a little different.  I can't lie and say it won't be deflating if the night of the first show you are doing the song by song update of the setlist, and I can basically call them out before you type them.

[jarmo]

Well, we differ here.

You think its a herculean feat to schedule shows and then play them.  I consider that the job.  Its the business they've chosen.  And I'd argue the fact that we have to go out of our way to laud them for meeting their meeting their commitments is due to their failure to do so in the past.  Is there some other reason we should pop the champagne for a tour that concludes without a no show, storm off, or riot?  That's how it should be.  That's the job.

You're still avoiding the question.

How is it supportive to spend pretty much years saying how unreliable the band is and then when they're not, make fun of them?
You keep doing it. Just answer the question and save the smart ass remarks for somebody else. Thanks.

"You can never do it, never, never, la la la"
"Oh you did? Well it doesn't matter. You should've done it before".

Supportive?

Truthfully, not exactly.  Yes, I'd love to hear a new song or two.  But I am not blind to the pitfalls of trying something brand new for a crowd that doesn't know it.  And that's fine.  (thought I would point out that they did allude to new songs being played)

Don't know where that info came from, how the question/answer was worded or anything so it's hard to tell what it means.

Seen plenty of cases where things have been taken out of context before. 




/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

Are you aware of how many management teams were let go between "The Spaghetti Incident?" and Chinese Democracy? How come not all of them succeeded in what you consider a success? You seem to make the kind of statement that GN'R needs better managers, when in reality lots of managers have come and gone.

Would you rather have a manager that the artist doesn't trust and doesn't know what the artists wants, or not?

Think of it more like this.

We pretty much have to figure on Team Brazil being the bad guy, don't we?  Because the alternative is that Axl is 100% happy and onboard with their ramshackle way of doing things.  I think most of us would rather believe he's not and expects a little better.

And since you asked for examples, I have one : the VH-1 concert.

Most of us were excited about it.  And we made it appointment TV to catch it when it aired.  I, like most I assume, DVRed it.  For the record, I liked it.

And then what happened?  They pitched a fit and had all sort of problems with the presentation.  Wasn't happy with the songs selected.  Sent out a pissy release about it, resulting in GNR being the only of those concerts VH-1 did that will never get a replay.

I think to a lot of us, it was just another example of mismanagement.  If you are that concerned about what will be played, you don't clear that first?  Isn't that the job?  And even if you don't, a pissy release after the fact is the best way communicate that?  Is that professional?  Is there any real wonder it never got a replay?  And, presumably, will not get another one for any future tours?

And in terms of overall professionalism, gotta be honest, a lot of their stuff reads like stuff you might read from a fellow message board poster.  Is that a good thing?  Was "complaints, complaints, complaints" a good move?  How about Fernando calling us racists?  Is that a smart play you'd expect from professional management of a major act?  How about picking fights with message boards in general?  Is that the type of thing band's management does?

In closing, I just want to re-iterate you asked for examples.  In other words, you asked for "negativity", so that is what I have posted here.

[D-GenerationX]

How is it supportive to spend pretty much years saying how unreliable the band is and then when they're not, make fun of them?
You keep doing it. Just answer the question and save the smart ass remarks for somebody else. Thanks.

"You can never do it, never, never, la la la"
"Oh you did? Well it doesn't matter. You should've done it before".

You are kind of losing me here.  Where did I "make fun of them"? 

I'll also need clarification on the "pretty much years saying" bit, as I've only posed here on the regular about 3-4 months now.

The last passage is just you putting words in my mouth.  I have pointed out their track record has been bad in the past.  Because it was.  I don't see that as out of bounds.  I know they didn't show up in Philly because I was there ducking chairs being thrown over my head.  The fact that he actually did show up in Camden when I bought a ticket 9 years later was great, but it doesn't excuse what happened in 2002.  I can't just pretend that shit did not happen.

I don't wish a no show or a riot on anyone, because having it happen to me sucked.  But what are the chances if another one went down you'd be critical of it?

[D-GenerationX]

Here's the facts: Even during the silent years 03-05, behind the scenes the band was creating and building towards something great.  Hell even for all of Azoff's evil intentions, he was the one who worked out a deal that got the album out, and made it a reality in our hands and ears.  The truth is, for all of their love for Axl, Team Brazil is an unproven management team and they afford us no reason to believe they are capable of negotiating the next album's release and moving Guns N' Roses forward in 2014.  

Sporadic touring of the hits is fine for what it is.  I'm sure the shows will be great.  That said, I'm not ashamed to say I want more for Guns N' Roses. You should too.

Yep.

[jarmo]

You are kind of losing me here.  Where did I "make fun of them"? 

As I said, saying somebody will never manage to do something and then belittling them when they do...
You claim they're unreliable and then say "Oh, everybody manages that" when they prove you wrong. How is that supportive? Still not understanding it.

Is it so difficult to say something like "that's pretty cool, they did something I doubted they could do. Kudos to the band"?
No matter if you think it's the least they should do. Because it's an improvement on something you've been complaining about for a while.

I'll also need clarification on the "pretty much years saying" bit, as I've only posed here on the regular about 3-4 months now.

Sorry, what I meant was that your "they're unreliable" thing could've been said for years.

The last passage is just you putting words in my mouth.  I have pointed out their track record has been bad in the past.  Because it was.  I don't see that as out of bounds.  I know they didn't show up in Philly because I was there ducking chairs being thrown over my head.  The fact that he actually did show up in Camden when I bought a ticket 9 years later was great, but it doesn't excuse what happened in 2002.  I can't just pretend that shit did not happen.

You forgot the show in 2012.

I don't wish a no show or a riot on anyone, because having it happen to me sucked.  But what are the chances if another one went down you'd be critical of it?

I don't agree with violence at shows.
People are there to have a good time.

But I'm also not gonna point fingers without knowing all the facts. 


/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

You forgot the show in 2012.

Mid-week show, that one.  The Camden show was on a Saturday, so it didn't matter that he took the stage at 11:20 (which he did).

But I can't be asking friends to come with me to a show on a Tuesday where he might not wander out there until 11:20 and then play for 2 plus hours.  As I live in the burbs and not the city, that puts me home at about 2:30AM, at best.  With work a mere 5 hours away.  No good.

This would be a perfect example of the unreliable thing.  There is literally no other major band I would have these concerns about, seeing a midweek show.  Literally anyone else would have me back home by midnight or soon after.  Axl would be 5 songs into his set at that time. 

I don't agree with violence at shows.
People are there to have a good time.

But I'm also not gonna point fingers without knowing all the facts. 

The problem here is that you can hide behind that forever.  To you, its still out of buonds to criticize 2002 because we don't have "the facts".  And so long as "the facts" are never forthcoming, it excuses it for all criticism?  Yeah, in fantasyland, maybe.

But we are getting lost in the weeds here.  Let's keep it big picture.

If another riot, storm off, or no show happened, you are damn right I'd be right back here asking you to comment on it.  I don't think a comment would be forthcoming, but after the enormous umbrage you have taken at the mere suggestion, you best believe I'd ask the question.  Because it would be my closing argument.

[D-GenerationX]

Are you aware of how many management teams were let go between "The Spaghetti Incident?" and Chinese Democracy? How come not all of them succeeded in what you consider a success? You seem to make the kind of statement that GN'R needs better managers, when in reality lots of managers have come and gone.

Would you rather have a manager that the artist doesn't trust and doesn't know what the artists wants, or not?

Think of it more like this.

We pretty much have to figure on Team Brazil being the bad guy, don't we?  Because the alternative is that Axl is 100% happy and onboard with their ramshackle way of doing things.  I think most of us would rather believe he's not and expects a little better.

And since you asked for examples, I have one : the VH-1 concert.

Most of us were excited about it.  And we made it appointment TV to catch it when it aired.  I, like most I assume, DVRed it.  For the record, I liked it.

And then what happened?  They pitched a fit and had all sort of problems with the presentation.  Wasn't happy with the songs selected.  Sent out a pissy release about it, resulting in GNR being the only of those concerts VH-1 did that will never get a replay.

I think to a lot of us, it was just another example of mismanagement.  If you are that concerned about what will be played, you don't clear that first?  Isn't that the job?  And even if you don't, a pissy release after the fact is the best way communicate that?  Is that professional?  Is there any real wonder it never got a replay?  And, presumably, will not get another one for any future tours?

And in terms of overall professionalism, gotta be honest, a lot of their stuff reads like stuff you might read from a fellow message board poster.  Is that a good thing?  Was "complaints, complaints, complaints" a good move?  How about Fernando calling us racists?  Is that a smart play you'd expect from professional management of a major act?  How about picking fights with message boards in general?  Is that the type of thing band's management does?

In closing, I just want to re-iterate you asked for examples.  In other words, you asked for "negativity", so that is what I have posted here.

Whole lot of questions here, Jarmo.  And not one answer from you.

I'm not sore about it, but am going to ask you to keep this post in mind the next time you are all over someone's else shit for not answering even one of yours.

Fair is fair.