Guns N' Roses Facebook Update

[D-GenerationX]

I believe I've been making the same point though, right?.

That constant re-litigation of the same old semantic fights are futile and should be tabled.  Those were exact words I used.

[Ali]

I believe I've been making the same point though, right?.

That constant re-litigation of the same old semantic fights are futile and should be tabled.  Those were exact words I used.

I'm not sure I understand.  I didn't see those words used in your responses to my posts.

Ali

[D-GenerationX]

It wasn't a direct response to you, it was to Jarmo.  But the point is the same, regardless.

You don't like pointless things?  These past few posts are a pointless thing.  Nothing new has been said here in the past half hour that we have not covered (in some cases, seemingly word for word) several times now.

Its time to table this particular discussion, I think.  And I suspect others reading you and I going round and round in circles over the same points aren't all that knocked out with it either.

[Ali]

It wasn't a direct response to you, it was to Jarmo.  But the point is the same, regardless.

You don't like pointless things?  These past few posts are a pointless thing.  Nothing new has been said here in the past half hour that we have not covered (in some cases, seemingly word for word) several times now.

Its time to table this particular discussion, I think.  And I suspect others reading you and I going round and round in circles over the same points aren't all that knocked out with it either.

O.k.  Well, I disagree.  I don't think the particular point Jarmo made and I picked up on has really been discussed.  I realize it can come across as an attack and a criticism, but it's not meant to be at all.  I want new music as much as anyone, but if the Chinese Democracy saga taught me anything, getting frustrated about the lack of new music, the lack of even information from the band, is futile because I can't personally change the situation.  Therefore, I've let go of the frustration and the subsequent need to vent and express that frustration.  I guess I struggle to understand how any other fan who went through the Chinese Democracy saga (not you in particular), could still be at that point of frustration, and why they still express it over and over again.  By about 2004, that felt like just banging my head up against a wall.

I'm just trying to understand the other viewpoint, that's all.

Ali

[D-GenerationX]

I'm in shoulder shrug mode more than anything.  I don't really expect any new album is ever really forthcoming.

To be perfectly honest, future leaks are all we might ever have.  Not ideal, obviously, but its the only real scenario I can see playing out.

[Princess Leia]

It wasn't a direct response to you, it was to Jarmo.  But the point is the same, regardless.

You don't like pointless things?  These past few posts are a pointless thing.  Nothing new has been said here in the past half hour that we have not covered (in some cases, seemingly word for word) several times now.

Its time to table this particular discussion, I think.  And I suspect others reading you and I going round and round in circles over the same points aren't all that knocked out with it either.

O.k.  Well, I disagree.  I don't think the particular point Jarmo made and I picked up on has really been discussed.  I realize it can come across as an attack and a criticism, but it's not meant to be at all.  I want new music as much as anyone, but if the Chinese Democracy saga taught me anything, getting frustrated about the lack of new music, the lack of even information from the band, is futile because I can't personally change the situation.  Therefore, I've let go of the frustration and the subsequent need to vent and express that frustration.  I guess I struggle to understand how any other fan who went through the Chinese Democracy saga (not you in particular), could still be at that point of frustration, and why they still express it over and over again.  By about 2004, that felt like just banging my head up against a wall.

I'm just trying to understand the other viewpoint, that's all.

Ali

Well I can only speak for myself here. I?m not frustrated because of the lack of music. But I do have many unanswer questions. For example. I think the band should have long term goals. Do they have them as a band? Are they going to spend the rest of their lives touring and performing mostly AFD songs?  If the record company wants a reunion and Axl doesn?t. Why isn?t Axl trying to make a deal with another record company? Why Axl spent a lot of time and money making what is it known as The Vault if he is not willing to share it with the world at some point? Axl has said in the chats that making CD was a nightmare for him. So I understand that he is not willing to have another nightmare. If he doesn?t want to do this anymore I?m ok with it. But he has to make up his mind the sooner the better.

A reunion doesn?t solve anything for me if they don?t make at least one album. Will they? Why do I say this? Because they have already played all the albums they made. Sure the set list must have some hits. But I think we all agree they are perfectly capable to make amazing music. Unless there is a one time only reunion like Pink Floyd did. In that case there is no need for a new album.

[jarmo]

I am of the opinion that you can think both things at the same time and still be a supportive fan.  I see both as just honest assessments of each situation.  Being bummed about one aspect does not affect overall fandom or constitute any sort of lack support of the band overall,  At least in my view.

No, being bummed about not having a new album doesn't mean anything regards of what kind of fan you are. It's the acts that follow.
Like I said, a lot of negative comments, from people who only want a new album, are the result of that. That's the only thing they care about. That's the cause of all their negativity.

Or one of them. There's probably more causes that we don't need to get into... 

But just think of it as a high school debate team subject, just for example's sake.  The format is that both sides are given the same argument and one is assigned the "for" stance, and the other the "against."

So if the given topic is Axl's interest in future albums, given all he has said and done (or in some cases, not done) since the last album came out, don't you feel the "against" argument is easier one to make?

The "for" argument seems like a way uphill battle.  And I'm not sure that basing that argument around the concept "hey, he could be...never know" is a particularly strong argument.

But try and think of it more as a snapshot in time argument, that time being as of right now.  The "against" argument is not in stone and good for alltime.  But right now?  Yeah, it is the credible argument. 

Again, I think this is a matter of how you see things. Sure, it's easy to say he doesn't care if that's how you view the situation. If he doesn't say he does, he must not care!
I don't see it that way. As a person who followed GN'R for a while, I'd never make that assumption that he doesn't care about his music. To me it sounds ridiculous. He didn't give up last time after all those battles.




/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

Well I can only speak for myself here. I?m not frustrated because of the lack of music. But I do have many unanswer questions. For example. I think the band should have long term goals. Do they have them as a band? Are they going to spend the rest of their lives touring and performing mostly AFD songs?  If the record company wants a reunion and Axl doesn?t. Why isn?t Axl trying to make a deal with another record company? Why Axl spent a lot of time and money making what is it known as The Vault if he is not willing to share it with the world at some point? Axl has said in the chats that making CD was a nightmare for him. So I understand that he is not willing to have another nightmare. If he doesn?t want to do this anymore I?m ok with it. But he has to make up his mind the sooner the better.

A reunion doesn?t solve anything for me if they don?t make at least one album. Will they? Why do I say this? Because they have already played all the albums they made. Sure the set list must have some hits. But I think we all agree they are perfectly capable to make amazing music. Unless there is a one time only reunion like Pink Floyd did. In that case there is no need for a new album.

All very well said.

I don't really view the current guys as a viable band in the traditional sense of the term.  Its basically a touring band.  And I agree with you that if that is the plan going forward, no, there is no need for a new album.  If all you are going to do is be a nostalgia type act, you already have the songs you will need to make that work.  And really, it will work for the rest of your days.  You will always be able to sell a Guns N' Roses playing Guns N' Roses songs with Axl Rose singing.  In truth, you could replace every other person on stage and that would still work.

[sofine11]

Even though I wouldn't mind if it happened, I have never once rallied for a reunion (Axl, Slash, Duff).  Not once.  But if this band is just going to be a touring band from here on out, with no real aspirations of putting out another record, it's pretty hard to understand the what the point of trying to hold the current lineup together is.  In a touring band, sans Axl Rose, everyone is expendable.  Everyone is replaceable and no one outside these forums would bat an eye.

[jarmo]

I don't really view the current guys as a viable band in the traditional sense of the term.  Its basically a touring band. 

Is that you being supportive again?  

A band is not a band but they are basically a kind of band?
A majority of the band was part of making the record called Chinese Democracy. You can check the album yourself.

There's bands where one person writes most of the music and lyrics, that's not a band? If Jagger/Richards write all the music for a record by the Stones, does it mean they're not a band since those other guys aren't involved? Are they just a touring band because they didn't release a new studio album since 2005?




/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

Even though I wouldn't mind if it happened, I have never once rallied for a reunion (Axl, Slash, Duff).  Not once.  But if this band is just going to be a touring band from here on out, with no real aspirations of putting out another record, it's pretty hard to understand the what the point of trying to hold the current lineup together is.  In a touring band, sans Axl Rose, everyone is expendable.  Everyone is replaceable and no one outside these forums would bat an eye.

I'd put myself in that same boat.

I also don't push the reunion idea because the bottom line is that Axl hates Slash.  So long as you know that, it pretty much ends that conversation before it starts, which is why I've never had much time for it.

[sofine11]

Even though I wouldn't mind if it happened, I have never once rallied for a reunion (Axl, Slash, Duff).  Not once.  But if this band is just going to be a touring band from here on out, with no real aspirations of putting out another record, it's pretty hard to understand the what the point of trying to hold the current lineup together is.  In a touring band, sans Axl Rose, everyone is expendable.  Everyone is replaceable and no one outside these forums would bat an eye.

I'd put myself in that same boat.

I also don't push the reunion idea because the bottom line is that Axl hates Slash.  So long as you know that, it pretty much ends that conversation before it starts, which is why I've never had much time for it.

Agreed.  It's like, I'd love to win the lottery too, but I'm not going to talk about how awesome it would be 24/7, completely neglecting reality and the way things are.  Seems like an idiotic waste of time to me.  Same goes for GNR reunionists.

But like I said, talk is nice, but we've seen zero concrete evidence to show us this band is moving in the direction of putting the next album out.  And even though I think he acts pretty goofy publicly, the one I feel for the most is DJ Ashba. He joined Guns 5 years ago with the obvious intention of helping write & record new music, as well as tour.  Other than his solos, we have no reason to believe we'll ever see any of his work with GNR released officially, be it songs he wrote or putting his touches on older Chinese era tracks.  Nada.

[D-GenerationX]

A band is not a band but they are basically a kind of band?
A majority of the band was part of making the record called Chinese Democracy. You can check the album yourself.

There's bands where one person writes most of the music and lyrics, that's not a band? If Jagger/Richards write all the music for a record by the Stones, does it mean they're not a band since those other guys aren't involved? Are they just a touring band because they didn't release a new studio album since 2005?

Well, run down this list with me and tell me what I have wrong.  I'll hear you out.

- no new album on the horizon, short term or long term
- confirmation from current band members they have yet to write a note together
- little visible enthusiasm to ever start writing, recording, or releasing anything

What we do have, is a group of guys that hit the road every 2 years to play basically the same 20-25 songs, including covers and each guy's own solo or non-GNR material.

Of those 20-25 songs they play each night, the lion's share of them were written, recorded, and originally performed by other people.  Even of the 4-5 that make the setlist from the last album, the majority of the guys that wrote, recorded and performed those songs are gone too.  Bucket, gone.  Robin, gone.  Paul, gone.  Brain, gone.  And the few flourishes here and there that guys like Bumble and Frank had cut and pasted over top of the existing songs weren't exactly crucial contributions.  And Ashba is not on there at all.

As both I and a few others have said, you could replace literally every other human being on that stage other than Axl Rose and the show goes on without missing a beat.

Add that all up, the current operation is a touring band, for the most part.  At least until we are shown otherwise.

[sofine11]

There's bands where one person writes most of the music and lyrics, that's not a band? If Jagger/Richards write all the music for a record by the Stones, does it mean they're not a band since those other guys aren't involved? Are they just a touring band because they didn't release a new studio album since 2005?

/jarmo

Not to nitpick, but The Stones put out a 2 song EP (Doom & Gloom, One More Shot) before launching the current tour. One of which got nominated for a Grammy for best rock song.   GNR can't even do that much.

[D-GenerationX]

But like I said, talk is nice, but we've seen zero concrete evidence to show us this band is moving in the direction of putting the next album out.  And even though I think he acts pretty goofy publicly, the one I feel for the most is DJ Ashba. He joined Guns 5 years ago with the obvious intention of helping write & record new music, as well as tour.  Other than his solos, we have no reason to believe we'll ever see any of his work with GNR released officially, be it songs he wrote or putting his touches on older Chinese era tracks.  Nada.

I feel for both Ashba and Bumble.  

They seem to be the only ones in the fold that want to start creating new stuff.  Or, at the very least, clear the deck of the already done CD sessions so they can eventually create new stuff.

I think if you had to handicap the next guys to drop out of this thing, you start with those two.

[D-GenerationX]

Not to nitpick, but The Stones put out a 2 song EP (Doom & Gloom, One More Shot) before launching the current tour. One of which got nominated for a Grammy for best rock song.   GNR can't even do that much.

Yep. 
 
And I thought 'Doom & Gloom' was a pretty good tune.  'One More Shot', in all fairness, is your boilerplate Keith riff song.  It apparently came from a session he hoped to turn into another solo album and frankly, sounds it.

That said, they did record and release them.  The current guys on that stage played on the tracks.  And they played them on every show of that tour.  GNR can't boast that.

Axl and the gang are going back on the road.  One song can't go out on iTunes...why?  Because they don't want to.  We can dress it up and try and change the subject 7 different times in hopes of stifiling that uncomfortable conversation, but that's what it comes down to.  They could, but don't want to.

[sofine11]

Not to nitpick, but The Stones put out a 2 song EP (Doom & Gloom, One More Shot) before launching the current tour. One of which got nominated for a Grammy for best rock song.   GNR can't even do that much.

Yep. 
 
And I thought 'Doom & Gloom' was a pretty good tune.  'One More Shot', in all fairness, is your boilerplate Keith riff song.  It apparently came from a session he hoped to turn into another solo album and frankly, sounds it.

That said, they did record and release them.  The current guys on that stage played on the tracks.  And they played them on every show of that tour.  GNR can't boast that.

Axl and the gang are going back on the road.  One song can't go out on iTunes...why?  Because they don't want to.  We can dress it up and try and change the subject 7 different times in hopes of stifiling that uncomfortable conversation, but that's what it comes down to.  They could, but don't want to.

Agreed.  No ones buying albums?  Singles are where it's at now?  Then release a 2-3 song EP prior to the tour.  God knows there's enough in the can to do so. 

I'm tired of people falling back on the "Well, we really don't know what's going on behind the scenes" nonsense.  Where there's a will there's a way, and thus far I've see no evidence of a will.

[jarmo]

- no new album on the horizon, short term or long term

What do you base this on? And define short and long term.
No new album? But we know songs exist.

- confirmation from current band members they have yet to write a note together

Confirmation from other band members that they have written songs on their own for GN'R.

- little visible enthusiasm to ever start writing, recording, or releasing anything

Well, I get that you'd want that but considering the past and how it backfired, maybe the more cautious approach has its reasons. I know you don't wanna hear that.

Of those 20-25 songs they play each night, the lion's share of them were written, recorded, and originally performed by other people.  Even of the 4-5 that make the setlist from the last album, the majority of the guys that wrote, recorded and performed those songs are gone too.  Bucket, gone.  Robin, gone.  Paul, gone.  Brain, gone.  And the few flourishes here and there that guys like Bumble and Frank had cut and pasted over top of the existing songs weren't exactly crucial contributions.  And Ashba is not on there at all.

But I said majority. Axl, Dizzy, Chris and Tommy were there. Richard joined in 2002.

Again, song writing credits to define a band? Matt Sorum, Gilby Clarke or Dizzy had zero song writing credits on the songs they performed on the Use Your Illusion tour. Was that an issue? No.  

As both I and a few others have said, you could replace literally every other human being on that stage other than Axl Rose and the show goes on without missing a beat.

So? Just because he was there since day one and is the most recognized member of the band doesn't mean the others aren't part of the band.

Not to nitpick, but The Stones put out a 2 song EP (Doom & Gloom, One More Shot) before launching the current tour. One of which got nominated for a Grammy for best rock song.   GNR can't even do that much.

Wasn't that for their best of album?

Here's a question for you. Let's say GN'R put out a live track for download. Would that make the band a real band overnight?



/jarmo

[D-GenerationX]

I'm tired of people falling back on the "Well, we really don't know what's going on behind the scenes" nonsense.  Where there's a will there's a way, and thus far I've see no evidence of a will.

Agreed.

Then you have the evil record company angle.  So if Axl said he wanted to put out a single song, they step in say over their dead fucking body will he do that.  

But, if you are willing to believe the "we don't know what's going on behind the scenes" bit, I suppose its not that big a leap to go ahead and assume that part too.  Why not?  It seems to be easier than admit the apparent grimness of a situation.  I just don't know anyone buys any of that unless you REALLY want to for reasons of spin and/or total deflection.

[sofine11]

Wasn't that for their best of album?

Here's a question for you. Let's say GN'R put out a live track for download. Would that make the band a real band overnight?



/jarmo

It was initially released as a two song EP on itunes, then put on "Grrr" when it was physically released.  Crazy right?

I don't know what you mean about the "real band over night" thing, but my initial point was that these guys, especially DJ & Bumble, are being under-utilized if they are only to be part of a GNR touring band going forward.  Even they would tell you as much in a moment of honesty.  Without putting  a real mark on new music, moreso for DJ since Ron appeared on Chinese, there's no real reason for casual fans to bond with them.  Only hardcore fans on the forums care about Ballad of Death.  Most people at the shows have no idea what they're hearing.  He could be improvising for all they know & care.