Is Interscope/Geffen Blocking The Next Album's Release?

[sofine11]

I think I struggle with his lack of desire to release anything because he worked so hard and so long on all this.

He had a comment somewhere along the line that they weren't doing all this work to have it never see the light of day.  I wonder what happened to that mindset.  If for no other reason to be able to tell the world I haven't actually been sitting on my ass for 15 years, because look what I did.

You have to try to get into his headspace.

Is music his profession?

Or is music just who he is....and he happens to make money at it.

If it's his profession.....you make a fair point.

But there are plenty of artists...whether you'd call them that or not...who create art for their own personal expression. Plenty of artists for who the commercial side was either an afterthought, a non factor, a neccessary evil, and/or an abject perversion. Instead, it's like catharsis for them. It's something they're compelled to do, almost..whether earning a living at it or not. And IF they make money at it, that's a bonus (or a curse, depending on the artist).  But it's not their primary intent/interest. It's something they deal with, not something they aim for.

I suspect Axl's quote was in deference to his band mates, who did all the work with him...and his desire to have something come of their efforts FOR THEM.

Maybe that's changed, or maybe there have been conversations/events that have convinced him otherwise.  I don't know.

You might not agree with the above...but at least be open to the fact it MIGHT be true.  If you look at a lot of Axl's actions over his career, and view through that lens.....you get an interesting picture painted (no pun intended) for you.  It might not be an accurate one, but it's interesting.

Great post, and possibly puts what's going on into perspective.

If Axl does, in fact, still harbor feelings of resentment regarding how Chinese was handled by the label, he may very well feel that putting out another record isn't even worth the trouble if it's also going to be mishandled.  Could very well be.

We can only hope that certain steps have been taken to repair that business relationship and, if not, Axl figures out a way to release more music on his own terms.

[pilferk]

I think us hearing these old working titles we've been talking about for years ultimately depends on how emotionally attached Axl is to them.  I would hope that's the case with at least a handful of them, to the point where it would not require the current lineup re-inventing the wheel in the studio whenever they'd get around to it.

I've never witnessed anyone who seemingly lives outside of time as much as Axl Rose, but who knows, he may know exactly what songs he wants on the next record, and exactly when he'll pull the trigger and put them out, and all we can do is wait.

People bag on me when I start throwing the "G" word around...but the fact is....many geniuses have similar habits.  Einstein, Hawking, Warhol, Da Vinci, Curie.....artists, scientists, etc...all had similar issues with time/distractions.

Whether that's why Axl does what he does...I don't know. But it fits a similar pattern.  And many of the folks mentioned above (with the exception of Warhol...though he was notoriously late when confronted with deadlines) were singularly possessive of their work, and had a hard time "letting it go", because it was never finished to their satisfaction.  Ultimately, they DID...but almost always through a long "birthing" process.

I just hope he knows how much hearing this music means to so many of us.  Sometimes I wonder.

I think he knows.  I even think he "cares".

But I honestly believe Axl thinks he's "fighting the good fight" (and we can debate against who/why) for the fans.  That this is some sort of principled stand he thinks he's taking: for himself, for his bandmates, and for the fans.

Whether he actually IS....again, we can debate.  But in this case, what matters is that maybe he THINKS he is.

[pilferk]

Great post, and possibly puts what's going on into perspective.

If Axl does, in fact, still harbor feelings of resentment regarding how Chinese was handled by the label, he may very well feel that putting out another record isn't even worth the trouble if it's also going to be mishandled.  Could very well be.

We can only hope that certain steps have been taken to repair that business relationship and, if not, Axl figures out a way to release more music on his own terms.

I think we know he wasn't happy with the release of CD...he's said as much.  Whether you or I would feel the same way, in the same situation, isn't relevant.....but we know he does.

You would think, prior to release, he'd look for assurances from the label (and yes, this is almost a direct jarmo quote from some of his previous posts) before releasing an album.

Now....from the labels side...these assurances are not contractually obligated, and they've spent a buttload of money financing the creative efforts over the past couple decades-ish, and are interested in recouping as much of that investment, and making as large a profit as possible off of it.

You're ripe for a game of chicken,  here. Contractually, he can't force their hand...and they can't force his (seemingly).  Axl taking what he thinks is a principled stand against the evil, souless, corrupt label (sorry....that's my exposition...can you tell I hate record labels?) vs the label who is interested in maximizing it's hefty investment, and making the MOST money possible out of this option.  Not just "some money"...as much as they can manage, while managing the risks/costs of release.  Axl's leverage is the material (and, to be clear...he could very well be holding it "hostage" to leverage either a new contract, or the band release from their existing contract upon album release).  The labels is their ability to exclusively release (or withhold from release) the material.

Whether that's the situation or not...we can only speculate.  And you can "sympathize" with whatever side here you want, even in this theoretical construct.

But, given what we know about Axl...and what is commonly known (and historically seen) of big music industry labels...this isn't a huge leap of supposition.  It's DEFINITELY supposition...but it's one I don't have a problem wrapping my head around.  Your mileage may vary.

As an aside:  I wonder who the fuck wrote up the contract, and signed it, from the label side.  Because...there sure doesn't seem to be any time related milestones built in...or, if there ever were, their penalties were so "weak" as to be non-existent.  If that's not the case...I can't see how we could be in the place we are now.  The label could sue for breach, and recoup their investment/advances...and just be done with it.

[sofine11]

I think us hearing these old working titles we've been talking about for years ultimately depends on how emotionally attached Axl is to them.  I would hope that's the case with at least a handful of them, to the point where it would not require the current lineup re-inventing the wheel in the studio whenever they'd get around to it.

I've never witnessed anyone who seemingly lives outside of time as much as Axl Rose, but who knows, he may know exactly what songs he wants on the next record, and exactly when he'll pull the trigger and put them out, and all we can do is wait.

People bag on me when I start throwing the "G" word around...but the fact is....many geniuses have similar habits.  Einstein, Hawking, Warhol, Da Vinci, Curie.....artists, scientists, etc...all had similar issues with time/distractions.

Whether that's why Axl does what he does...I don't know. But it fits a similar pattern.  And many of the folks mentioned above (with the exception of Warhol...though he was notoriously late when confronted with deadlines) were singularly possessive of their work, and had a hard time "letting it go", because it was never finished to their satisfaction.  Ultimately, they DID...but almost always through a long "birthing" process.

I just hope he knows how much hearing this music means to so many of us.  Sometimes I wonder.

I think he knows.  I even think he "cares".

But I honestly believe Axl thinks he's "fighting the good fight" (and we can debate against who/why) for the fans.  That this is some sort of principled stand he thinks he's taking: for himself, for his bandmates, and for the fans.

Whether he actually IS....again, we can debate.  But in this case, what matters is that maybe he THINKS he is.

I think those comparisons are fair.  I cannot recall who, but someone "in the know" once said that Axl doesn't think like you or I.  If you would have asked him where he was during his famous disappearing act during the release of Chinese Democracy, he wouldn't have understood what you were asking and would have said something like "What do you mean where was I? I was right here!"  The logic wouldn't apply.

Could be that there simply is no option for him other than not putting out another album until he feels it is afforded whatever he needs for a release to be warranted. 

[D-GenerationX]

Axl going completely MIA from 2 months before the release to over a year after had to poison the well something fierce.

Who could blame the label for throwing that back in his face now?  And even if he tried to sell them he will do better this time, his track record is dogshit.

Of course, the real problem is that he would likely see even negotiating with them as a total defeat and, as usual, would rather just be mad.

[sofine11]

Axl going completely MIA from 2 months before the release to over a year after had to poison the well something fierce.

Who could blame the label for throwing that back in his face now?  And even if he tried to sell them he will do better this time, his track record is dogshit.

Of course, the real problem is that he would likely see even negotiating with them as a total defeat and, as usual, would rather just be mad.

It would seem there are bruised feelings on both sides of the fence, as neither seems to be chomping at the bit to work out another album release. 

We have no way of knowing what conversations are taking place behind the scenes, but if either Axl Rose or Jimmy Iovine wanted to make getting the next Guns record out a priority, I would assume that it would only be a matter of short time before it materialized.

[pilferk]

Axl going completely MIA from 2 months before the release to over a year after had to poison the well something fierce.

Who could blame the label for throwing that back in his face now?  And even if he tried to sell them he will do better this time, his track record is dogshit.

Of course, the real problem is that he would likely see even negotiating with them as a total defeat and, as usual, would rather just be mad.

It's a fair point.

The issue is: We don't know what predicated it.  Could be Axl, himself, pulling his Howard Hughes act.  Or it could be that he was working with the label, saw the writing on the wall, and went full introvert as a form of protest.

I just don't know...and both look like likely options, because, historically, both have happened before (look at what happened post GnR LIVE and GnR Greatest Hits....full stop for a decent period of time).  I'm open to both possibilities.

[pilferk]

Axl going completely MIA from 2 months before the release to over a year after had to poison the well something fierce.

Who could blame the label for throwing that back in his face now?  And even if he tried to sell them he will do better this time, his track record is dogshit.

Of course, the real problem is that he would likely see even negotiating with them as a total defeat and, as usual, would rather just be mad.

It would seem there are bruised feelings on both sides of the fence, as neither seems to be chomping at the bit to work out another album release. 

We have no way of knowing what conversations are taking place behind the scenes, but if either Axl Rose or Jimmy Iovine wanted to make getting the next Guns record out a priority, I would assume that it would only be a matter of short time before it materialized.

I think the only issue with the above is the "or" in relation to Axl/Iovine.

I think that HAS to be an "and", to some extent.  And the issue is how to get that "and", because you know it's conditional.  Iovine is never going to get to a point where a new GnR album is going to be released by "giving in" to Axl 100%.  And the reverse is true, too.  Thus my game of chicken reference.

The only way it's OR is if that priority level is SO high it means giving the other person EVERYTHING they want. Not "a" priority...it would have to be "the" priority. While it's true....I don't think we can realistically expect that to ever happen....

[D-GenerationX]

I think Axl seriously misjudges his leverage here.

The Best Buy deal helped clear up their books on this whole misadventure.  They are looking at it like they escaped this one.  I'm not sure Axl's threat that he's going to run off and pout and not cooperate any further generated more than a shoulder shrug to the big muckety mucks at the label.

[Ali]

Except for the fact that there are people who have heard the work, in this case anyone in the band, Marco Beltrami, Sebastian Bach and many others.

I'm not of the opinion that because I haven't heard a song, even though others have, it doesn't exist.  That would be tantamount to saying those that have claimed to heard said song are lying, and I have no reason to say that.

Wait, you are saying one his close friends and a guy he hired came back with good reviews?  The hell you say.

No, I'm actually not saying that at all.

I'm saying those people have heard the songs in question.  Therefore, they exist even though I personally have not heard them.

But you see what I am getting at though, right?

Baz is his buddy.  Is there a real chance he going to come out and say he heard the stuff and it was underwhelming?

Marco was paid money to work on the songs.  How likely is he to come out and say that he worked on them but don't get your hopes up, people.

I know someone at Rolling Stone heard some stuff, but that was like 14 years ago now.  And most had no vocals.  But that's the only example I can think of as feedback from someone with no dog in the fight.

You are making a completely different point than I am.  I was never talking about quality of the material.

There was a point made that the art only exists if we've heard or seen it.

I think that is a deeply flawed argument given that there are people who've heard the material, other than me or the rest of the people posting on message boards.

So, my point was that if people have heard the music, even though I am not one of them, the music must exist.

The issue of quality is completely separate, and is obviously subjective.

Ali

[sofine11]

I think Axl seriously misjudges his leverage here.

The Best Buy deal helped clear up their books on this whole misadventure.  They are looking at it like they escaped this one.  I'm not sure Axl's threat that he's going to run off and pout and not cooperate any further generated more than a shoulder shrug to the big muckety mucks at the label.

That's my fear as well.  That is, that Axl's pouting and refusing to hand over the next record, and the powers that be at the label could probably care less. 

[D-GenerationX]

So, my point was that if people have heard the music, even though I am not one of them, the music must exist.

The issue of quality is completely separate, and is obviously subjective.

True.

I absolutely think songs exist in various stages of completion.  I don't necessarily believe they are finished products ready to press, however.

In truth, I have my biggest doubt about vocals.  Even back in the day, it was like pulling teeth to get Axl to record vocals.  And the finished versions of 'I.R.S.' and 'Catcher' we got in 2008 were still the vocals he laid down in, what, 1999?

[pilferk]

I think Axl seriously misjudges his leverage here.

The Best Buy deal helped clear up their books on this whole misadventure.  They are looking at it like they escaped this one.  I'm not sure Axl's threat that he's going to run off and pout and not cooperate any further generated more than a shoulder shrug to the big muckety mucks at the label.

Maybe so....I mean, we have no album, so that seems likely. At least on the eyes of the label.

But, again, if it's the only card he sees as being able to play...and he thinks he's taking a principled stand...how good the leverage is doesn't matter, depending on how committed he is. If he'd rather release nothing than not have assurances...it's enough for him.

Sometimes who wins the game of chicken isn't about who has the best/biggest car. It's about who has the biggest balls, and is willing to risk the most.

I think we've seen the size of axl's balls, and his overall stubbornness.

And I think we can all guess how committed a multimillion dollar label would be, given the relative importance of this album, at this point.

So, until something changes...

And now you know why I think the vault scenario isn't so far fetched.

IMHO, playing new material during a huge tour, with good press and reviews, COULD help get the label to move. Maybe. Possibly.

Not likely, mind you. But....

Edit: caveat being all ths theory crafting is remotely close to accurate.

[faldor]

Agree.  I do it...but definitely see the objections.  It's not particularly thoughtful to keep the crowd waiting til late into the evening. I was glad to see the improvement noted last tour.  I missed the show in CT last time (we were on vacation, visiting the Mouse, in Orlando, I think...or maybe I was in Boston on business...can't remember), but the reviews said they were on time.  And the other reviews from last tour seemed to say that, more often than not, they were on stage at a reasonable hour.

Hopefully, they continue.  I mean...Axl's getting up there in years. Guy needs to get to the "early bird special" for AARP members!  C'mon...I'm kidding!

They actually went on late that night.  Around midnight.  Show ended around 3 I think.  The crowd was surprisingly calm during the wait.  Baz went on an hour later than he was scheduled to go on.  I forget the exact time frame, but we waited for quite a bit.  Luckily it was a Saturday, so that may have played a large part in the crowd's understanding.  They were awesome though, and well worth the wait.  But I was drained by the end of the show, standing around for 5+ hours and rocking out will do that to you.  The late starts never bothered me.  I'm a night owl as it is, but I understand how many get turned off by it.

[draguns]

Pilferk, you make a lot of sense. I do think that going on stage late isn't good for his fan base. Most of Axl's fans are probably in their late 20 to 30s and even 40s. In couple of years, I'll be hitting the big 40 and I'm at the point of my life where I have responsibilities. When you are a teen and early 20s, you can stay late at a concert. 30s and hitting close to 40, you really can't.

[pilferk]

They actually went on late that night.  Around midnight.  Show ended around 3 I think.  The crowd was surprisingly calm during the wait.  Baz went on an hour later than he was scheduled to go on.  I forget the exact time frame, but we waited for quite a bit.  Luckily it was a Saturday, so that may have played a large part in the crowd's understanding.  They were awesome though, and well worth the wait.  But I was drained by the end of the show, standing around for 5+ hours and rocking out will do that to you.  The late starts never bothered me.  I'm a night owl as it is, but I understand how many get turned off by it.

At the Comcast?  I stand corrected. As I said, I wasn't at that one...the only GnR show in CT they've ever done I haven't been physically present for.

I saw a press review that said they went on stage "relatively" on time..but I just looked around and found 2 more that said they were late.

So much for "progress". 

[faldor]

They actually went on late that night.  Around midnight.  Show ended around 3 I think.  The crowd was surprisingly calm during the wait.  Baz went on an hour later than he was scheduled to go on.  I forget the exact time frame, but we waited for quite a bit.  Luckily it was a Saturday, so that may have played a large part in the crowd's understanding.  They were awesome though, and well worth the wait.  But I was drained by the end of the show, standing around for 5+ hours and rocking out will do that to you.  The late starts never bothered me.  I'm a night owl as it is, but I understand how many get turned off by it.

At the Comcast?  I stand corrected. As I said, I wasn't at that one...the only GnR show in CT they've ever done I haven't been physically present for.

I saw a press review that said they went on stage "relatively" on time..but I just looked around and found 2 more that said they were late.

So much for "progress". 

well they have been going on earlier since then, but that wasn't the case that night. I went with a group of 10 people and didn't hear one complaint. They were fully prepared. It was a late arriving crowd as it was. They knew the drill. I got in there on the early to secure a spot on the floor, but it was well worth it to be 10' from the stage.

Overall, I think they've made steps in the right direction to offer some goodwill to the paying customers, which I would think would be a positive reflection in the label's eyes. Going on earlier, playing 3 hour shows, no real major incidents, generally positive reviews in the media and from concert goers. So that has to do them some good. But who knows what's going on behind the scenes.

[D-GenerationX]

IMHO, playing new material during a huge tour, with good press and reviews, COULD help get the label to move. Maybe. Possibly.

Not likely, mind you. But....

Not they least bit likely, I'd say. 

Because he won't do any real promotion.  Tough to get decent press (or them to even a give a shit) without decent promotion by the artist.  Competent and effective promotion is not a random Facebook post and an update to your already in your corner fan club.

With all due respect to the other guys, serious promotion requires Axl's participation.  You think that's forthcoming?  I don't.

[pilferk]

Not they least bit likely, I'd say. 

Because he won't do any real promotion.  Tough to get decent press (or them to even a give a shit) without decent promotion by the artist.  Competent and effective promotion is not a random Facebook post and an update to your already in your corner fan club.

With all due respect to the other guys, serious promotion requires Axl's participation.  You think that's forthcoming?  I don't.

I think it's possible, but I'm not clairvoyant, so I don't KNOW one way or the other.  We'll see coming up quick, though.  But really, that's the only way to increase the value of the leverage, at this point.  Whether they take advantage.....

My one counterpoint is this:  The early leaks blew up HUGE without much in the way of promotion from Axl...in fact, the exact opposite.  If you get high quality bootlegs of "new songs" in circulation.....there is at least a chance (however slim) of lightning striking twice.  And, if that's what the band/management/Axl are thinking....I'd expect you'll see some more soundboard "pay per listen streams"  at some of the upcoming shows.

To be clear, I'm not saying it would be a great direction, or even that it's one they might seriously consider.  I have my doubts.  Only pointing out the possibility.....but it would be a relatively legal (or at least grey area legal) way to "end around" the label and get new music into fans hands...and try to get some grass roots pressure on the label.

Notice there are lots of "trys" in there.....I'm still not sure how effective a tactic it would be.  It just seems, to me, to be one of the few bullets available.

[D-GenerationX]

That's a good point.  Those leaks were getting radio airplay in some places.

I had friends asking me for copies.