Is Interscope/Geffen Blocking The Next Album's Release?

[D-GenerationX]

You know, pilferk, it's not easy to find someone more passive aggressively condescending than I am.  I take my hand off to you, sir.

[pilferk]

Really.  It's like there's no room to play Devil's Advocate.  You're either 110% onboard, or you get scolded for your opinion, literally.  See the flip side?  I know the popular response is, "Well, if you don't like it then don't post here." That's just nuts, we shouldn't have to do that.  

Right.  You're all victims.  Poor, repressed objectors who are having their voices silenced by "the man".

Except...well...reading this thread I see no one being "silenced".

There is a difference between there being no room to play "Devil's Advocate" and people NOT being in lockstep with your opinion, and disagreeing.

You seem to see disagreement as being silenced.  You want the ability to "debate in a spirited manner"...but when confronted with similar spirited objections, you immediately cry injury.

I'm not telling anyone not to post their objections.  If you have an opinion on the topic, by all means, post.  If you feel the need to point out, for the hundred and twentieth time in the past 30 days that jarmo isn't objective because he has a relationship with the band....maybe dial it back?

I'm asking if we can move on from the continuous, boring, SAME SHIT in every thread when it has little to nothing to do with the topic.

If you can't...great...don't.  But it's fucking boring, man.

Don't you get tired of reading the exact same shit in every single thread?

The reality is, since the Del Interview in 2009 where Axl made the the "No idea, and don't care" comment regarding the next album, we've seen next to nothing to tell us he's made any changes in his opinion regarding the next album, and remains apathetic.  Add to that, Team Brazil who are, at best, an unproven management team are now at the helm.  They have also not given us one shred of evidence that they are capable of properly motivating Axl and negotiating an album release with the label.

I sincerely hope they can and will prove me wrong.  As it stands, other than sporadic touring, the future looks relatively grim.

I'd say and/or in that bolded part above.

We can only speculate, and I think the speculation, from both sides (is it Interscope or is it not) are pretty interesting.

As is the speculation in "the next album" thread.

It's just a pain in the ass to wade through all the bullshit about jarmo to get to the interesting bits.

[sofine11]

It's like there's no room to play Devil's Advocate.  You're either 110% onboard, or you get scolded for your opinion, literally.  See the flip side?  I know the popular response is, "Well, if you don't like it then don't post here." That's just nuts, we shouldn't have to do that.

It reminds me of people lamenting that they can't attend a concert midweek because the band goes on at 11:30 and they have work the next day, only to be told "then don't fucking go, loser."  Always found that an odd answer.
  

The reality is, since the Del Interview in 2009 where Axl made the the "No idea, and don't care" comment regarding the next album, we've seen next to nothing to tell us he's made any changes in his opinion regarding the next album, and remains apathetic.  Add to that, Team Brazil who are, at best, an unproven management team are now at the helm.  They have also not given us one shred of evidence that they are capable of properly motivating Axl and negotiating an album release with the label.

You know, I had totally forgotten this until you mentioned it last week.  It does sort of bum me out.

I guess I sort of hoped that the general mindset for the next album would be that it can't possibly be as difficult as 'Chinese' was.  That the songs are largely done, and the process should not be such a grind.

Instead, it seems the other way, which sucks for we fans.

Yep.  Regarding the followup album, Axl's public opinion changed fast and dramatically.  During the chats in December, 08 he openly discussed The General, Atlas Shrugged, Soul Monster and even said that if all goes well it will come out the same time next year, while sounding genuinely excited.  This is when, despite the lack of promotion, Chinese was still riding relatively high on the charts with the Better video famously due out "in a week or so." and the cover A & B issues were "getting sorted".

Then, everything changed.  None of that happened.  Chinese quickly fell down the charts & was deemed a "commercial failure".  The alternate covers never came, the Better video was scrapped, the tour with Van Halen slated for that summer fell through. A few months later in the Billboard interview Axl tears into the label for their lack of support, and claims that he no longer cares about the followup album.  

During the first shows in late 2009, he referred to that the past year as "the worst year of my life."  Is it any wonder we haven't gotten the next record yet?  Anyone who sincerely thinks he's hard at work trying to get "The General" onto our collective ipods has something to learn.

[pilferk]

It's like there's no room to play Devil's Advocate.  You're either 110% onboard, or you get scolded for your opinion, literally.  See the flip side?  I know the popular response is, "Well, if you don't like it then don't post here." That's just nuts, we shouldn't have to do that.

It reminds me of people lamenting that they can't attend a concert midweek because the band goes on at 11:30 and they have work the next day, only to be told "then don't fucking go, loser."  Always found that an odd answer.
  

The lateness was always one of my pet peeves.  I always planned for it..but it was still annoying.

They seemed to have gotten a LOT better last tour, though.  Hopefully that's something they've worked out, now.  We'll see.

[D-GenerationX]

Really.  It's like there's no room to play Devil's Advocate.  You're either 110% onboard, or you get scolded for your opinion, literally.  See the flip side?  I know the popular response is, "Well, if you don't like it then don't post here." That's just nuts, we shouldn't have to do that.  

Right.  You're all victims.  Poor, repressed objectors who are having their voices silenced by "the man".

Except...well...reading this thread I see no one being "silenced".

Biggest fallacy about this site, right here.

I didn't even come here for years because all I heard were horror stories about how repressive and dictatorial things are here.

Gotta say, I don't see it.  I haven't been so much as warned and have been allowed to speak as freely as I want.  

[sofine11]

Really.  It's like there's no room to play Devil's Advocate.  You're either 110% onboard, or you get scolded for your opinion, literally.  See the flip side?  I know the popular response is, "Well, if you don't like it then don't post here." That's just nuts, we shouldn't have to do that.  

Right.  You're all victims.  Poor, repressed objectors who are having their voices silenced by "the man".

Except...well...reading this thread I see no one being "silenced".

Biggest fallacy about this site, right here.

I didn't even come here for years because all I heard were horror stories about how repressive and dictatorial things are here.

Gotta say, I don't see it.  I haven't been so much as warned and have been allowed to speak as freely as I want.  

I've been warned, but they're from years ago.  Jarmo has lightened up in the past couple of years, as far as allowed discussion.  Good for him. 

[D-GenerationX]

The lateness was always one of my pet peeves.  I always planned for it..but it was still annoying.

They seemed to have gotten a LOT better last tour, though.  Hopefully that's something they've worked out, now.  We'll see.

Yeah, that's what folks said.  I agree, its a great development.

I used to think it was funny during the UYI tour.  I was even in the "what do you expect" crowd.  But, I was also a teenager with no responsibilities the next day.

Now that I'm a grown adult with a job, I think differently.  And doubly so when I think about friends with wives and kids and such.  And at this point, I see the problems.  I don't find it terribly realistic or at all fair to tell people they have to be able to take off work the next day to see a band, when no other band puts you through that.

But above all that, having gone to see them twice with the new line-up, I just can't get over the ugly mood it facilitates in the building.  Having the crowd boo in between songs played over the loudspeaker.  Chants of "Axl sucks" and "asshole".  People leaving before the show starts.  Why the hell foster that sort of mood in your crowd?

And he wonders why people throw shit at him sometimes.  This.  This is why.

[pilferk]

You know, pilferk, it's not easy to find someone more passive aggressively condescending than I am.  I take my hand off to you, sir.

Trust me when I tell you:

This isn't meant to be passive.

I've been reading for days, and I've had my fill, quite frankly. I'm sure that matters to you not a whit, but I've been around for 10 plus fucking years, now, and I think maybe I've earned a little rant.  I don't care that you don't like jarmo, or have some kind of bug up your ass (be it jealousy, some warped sense of "community service", or some sort of desire to build up "net cred" in the GnR community), or whatever else it is that's going on here.

But the constant riff on the same melody is really boring, and it's detracting from the little bit of ACTUAL content that's getting through.  It's like trying to find the one decent email in a wave of spam when I open my alt email account.  It's REALLY fucking tiresome, and I find myself starting to want to avoid the news section, entirely.  And while you're not the only person doing it...your post count is the one inflating the fastest.....

I have no beef with you being a pessimist (or, as I'm sure you'll respond, a realist) with GnR.  When you're making points, you make some good ones.  

But when you're taking the piss out of jarmo...honestly...you're just detracting from your case.  Because.....f I'm going to be completely, 100%, honest with you...it just makes you look like you're trying to fuck with jarmo, which calls YOUR credibility into account easily as much as it calls into account jarmo's.  It makes it look like you have an agenda...and it's not GnR related, really.

You'll deny it (maybe honestly, maybe not).  But that's what it looks like from the outside, looking in, with no real horse in the race.

[pilferk]

I've been warned, but they're from years ago.  Jarmo has lightened up in the past couple of years, as far as allowed discussion.  Good for him. 

"Warned"?  Sure.  Via karma points, probably. And not, necessarily, by jarmo (though maybe).

And I know there are topics jarmo OPENLY will tell you are "verboten"...but he's up front about it.

But in terms of an honest discussion on the topics that ARE allowed?  I've never seen a post censured/deleted for "topic" purposes.  Hate speech, attacking a poster (meaning direct name calling), etc? Sure...clear violations of the TOS you agree to when you join.

Just because you disagree...and especially with jarmo?  Never seen it.  Maybe it's happened....but I've never seen it.

[pilferk]

But you see what I am getting at though, right?

Baz is his buddy.  Is there a real chance he going to come out and say he heard the stuff and it was underwhelming?

Marco was paid money to work on the songs.  How likely is he to come out and say that he worked on them but don't get your hopes up, people.

I know someone at Rolling Stone heard some stuff, but that was like 14 years ago now.  And most had no vocals.  But that's the only example I can think of as feedback from someone with no dog in the fight.

It's a fair point.

The problem is this:  How likely is someone "outside" the process likely to hear the music, anyway?

[sofine11]

But you see what I am getting at though, right?

Baz is his buddy.  Is there a real chance he going to come out and say he heard the stuff and it was underwhelming?

Marco was paid money to work on the songs.  How likely is he to come out and say that he worked on them but don't get your hopes up, people.

I know someone at Rolling Stone heard some stuff, but that was like 14 years ago now.  And most had no vocals.  But that's the only example I can think of as feedback from someone with no dog in the fight.

It's a fair point.

The problem is this:  How likely is someone "outside" the process likely to hear the music, anyway?

I look at it like this:  If initially, the plan was to put the next album out a year after Chinese, they must have had a rough idea what the tracklist was going to look like.  Also, these songs would have had to be finished, if the plan was to tour in 2009, and then drop the next record in the fall. 

Point being, they must have had a lot of confidence in the songs slated for the next album, and they absolutely must have vocals already laid down.  We know that's the case for at least a handful of the songs (The General, Silkworms, Atlas, Soul Monster.)  This is why I remain optimistic regarding these tracks.

[pilferk]

The lateness was always one of my pet peeves.  I always planned for it..but it was still annoying.

They seemed to have gotten a LOT better last tour, though.  Hopefully that's something they've worked out, now.  We'll see.

Yeah, that's what folks said.  I agree, its a great development.

I used to think it was funny during the UYI tour.  I was even in the "what do you expect" crowd.  But, I was also a teenager with no responsibilities the next day.

At least with the stadium parts of the UYI tour (the Faith No More/Metallica/GnR leg), there was a built in excuse...that set change over was ridiculous.

But for the rest...I remember waiting HOURS for a couple shows back then (though he was pretty close to on time in New Haven and a Hartford Show....both with Brian May's band as openers).

Now that I'm a grown adult with a job, I think differently.  And doubly so when I think about friends with wives and kids and such.  And at this point, I see the problems.  I don't find it terribly realistic or at all fair to tell people they have to be able to take off work the next day to see a band, when no other band puts you through that.

Agree.  I do it...but definitely see the objections.  It's not particularly thoughtful to keep the crowd waiting til late into the evening. I was glad to see the improvement noted last tour.  I missed the show in CT last time (we were on vacation, visiting the Mouse, in Orlando, I think...or maybe I was in Boston on business...can't remember), but the reviews said they were on time.  And the other reviews from last tour seemed to say that, more often than not, they were on stage at a reasonable hour.

Hopefully, they continue.  I mean...Axl's getting up there in years. Guy needs to get to the "early bird special" for AARP members!  C'mon...I'm kidding!

But above all that, having gone to see them twice with the new line-up, I just can't get over the ugly mood it facilitates in the building.  Having the crowd boo in between songs played over the loudspeaker.  Chants of "Axl sucks" and "asshole".  People leaving before the show starts.  Why the hell foster that sort of mood in your crowd?

And he wonders why people throw shit at him sometimes.  This.  This is why.

I saw that in '02.  But I haven't seen it since...probably partly because of where I've seen them (Hammerstein, Roseland, etc).

Also didn't seem to be as big a problem last tour...but I wasn't there "live" to say for sure.

[pilferk]

I look at it like this:  If initially, the plan was to put the next album out a year after Chinese, they must have had a rough idea what the tracklist was going to look like.  Also, these songs would have had to be finished, if the plan was to tour in 2009, and then drop the next record in the fall. 

Point being, they must have had a lot of confidence in the songs slated for the next album, and they absolutely must have vocals already laid down.  We know that's the case for at least a handful of the songs (The General, Silkworms, Atlas, Soul Monster.)  This is why I remain optimistic regarding these tracks.

I agree. 

Which is one of the reasons why I think the label issues might be a factor.  Probably not the whole story, but at least part of it.

I also think there's a couple other possible contributors:

Axl's perfectionism.
The band turnover since then. And the possible incorporation of "new ideas" into the existing tracks or the "expunging" of former members...and the wrangling that would surround it.
A desire to rework the tracks to be more "marketable" given the feedback/reviews of CD (obviously this would be at the behest of the label, since I think Axl cares about marketable as much as I care about polar bear shit).
A creative "post mortem" of CD by Axl (and possibly the new members of the band) which led him/then to think they could make the tracks better, creatively, prior to release.
A "falling out of love" with the material by Axl...who has moved on to his next tangent/big thing/creative inspiration.  To be honest, I'm not sure he's that fickle, but....maybe.

I'll allow, though I don't particularly buy into, for the "Axl isn't motivated to create" point, too...since I just don't know.  But he seems like a guy for who music is catharis...whether that music is "releasable" or not.  Unless he's replaced music with a good therapist, I have a hard time believing he's utterly, creatively, "dead in the water".  Whether any of what he's created is good enough to "release" (in his mind, the labels mind, or the fans minds)....that's the question, for me.  And there's no way to get an answer....

[D-GenerationX]

I have no beef with you being a pessimist (or, as I'm sure you'll respond, a realist) with GnR.  When you're making points, you make some good ones.  

Nor I a beef with you.  You are a name on a screen, much as I am.  And we are talking about a rock band here.  Not exactly solving the world's problems, haha.

I think a lot of what you said with me and Jarmo is legit.  Truthfully, I think most of it comes from being something of a newbie around here.  I'm sort of still in the "is he kidding me with this" stage when I read some of his stuff.  But to a guy like you, around here 10 years, you are way past that stage of the game.  So I do get your points you made, most of them I found valid.  I suppose I am sort of playing catch-up.  And in a year's time, I might be making your same speech to some new guy acting as I have been towards him.

All fair.

As for the pessimist/realist thing, I would say that's it more that I really don't see reason for over the top optimism, and that's just based on Axl's track record.  And I think tone is important too.  I can see the benefit of new tour dates, but do feel there is ample room to not stop right there and declare us spoiled in some way.  I seriously feel that we have it pretty shitty as a fanbase, all things considered.  I can't really support being thrown a few breadcrumbs from time to time and being sold that I am eating like a king.  I follow other bands.  Their fans laugh at our situation, pretty much.

[D-GenerationX]

I'll allow, though I don't particularly buy into, for the "Axl isn't motivated to create" point, too...since I just don't know.  But he seems like a guy for who music is catharis...whether that music is "releasable" or not.  Unless he's replaced music with a good therapist, I have a hard time believing he's utterly, creatively, "dead in the water".  Whether any of what he's created is good enough to "release" (in his mind, the labels mind, or the fans minds)....that's the question, for me.  And there's no way to get an answer....

I think I struggle with his lack of desire to release anything because he worked so hard and so long on all this.

He had a comment somewhere along the line that they weren't doing all this work to have it never see the light of day.  I wonder what happened to that mindset.  If for no other reason to be able to tell the world I haven't actually been sitting on my ass for 15 years, because look what I did.

[pilferk]

I have no beef with you being a pessimist (or, as I'm sure you'll respond, a realist) with GnR.  When you're making points, you make some good ones.  

Nor I a beef with you.  You are a name on a screen, much as I am.  And we are talking about a rock band here.  Not exactly solving the world's problems, haha.

I think a lot of what you said with me and Jarmo is legit.  Truthfully, I think most of it comes from being something of a newbie around here.  I'm sort of still in the "is he kidding me with this" stage when I read some of his stuff.  But to a guy like you, around here 10 years, you are way past that stage of the game.  So I do get your points you made, most of them I found valid.  I suppose I am sort of playing catch-up.  And in a year's time, I might be making your same speech to some new guy acting as I have been towards him.

All fair.

As for the pessimist/realist thing, I would say that's it more that I really don't see reason for over the top optimism, and that's just based on Axl's track record.  And I think tone is important too.  I can see the benefit of new tour dates, but do feel there is ample room to not stop right there and declare us spoiled in some way.  I seriously feel that we have it pretty shitty as a fanbase, all things considered.  I can't really support being thrown a few breadcrumbs from time to time and being sold that I am eating like a king.  I follow other bands.  Their fans laugh at our situation, pretty much.

Pink Floyd.

The Eagles.

Led Zepplin.

Queen.

Hell, even Aerosmith, of late.

Yeah, yeah...I know...some of those band members are RIP and that's the reason for their situation. It's not apples to apples.....I'm not saying it is.

I'm not saying we don't have it "worse" than other bands.  Other very active bands.

But there are bands...popular, prolific bands who have produced as little, or less...and who are as active...or less..than GnR.

You ask, over and over, why I'm relatively content with what we have, and what's coming.  That's why.

Because it could be SOOO much worse.  It WAS SO much worse.  Yes...I see your "better than nothing" benchmark point.  And yes, it is a low bar.  But it's a bar they actually SET for a LONG time.

It's NOT stockholm syndrome, to be clear.  But there's so much other music to consume, and such a good back catalog of GnR to continue to consume....I don't need a hurry up on an album.  As long as they are still active, I'm "content"...because I have "hope" that I'll get something from them.  Either a tour, or, maybe, new music.  And I'm not implying those that have a differing opinion are "wrong".  You're entitled to feel differently.  But it's the way I feel the way I do...and I only speak for me (and maybe the Truffula trees).

And I recognize that, at a moments notice, that hope could evaporate, Axl could shut the whole thing down, and pull his Howard Hughes routine, disappearing into Latigo Canyon never to be heard from again.  He can take his ball and go home....and I couldn't begrudge him doing it, all things considered....and that would be it for GnR until he dies and the label opens up the vault.

So..there you go.  It's not optimism on my part, IMHO.  I'm anything but an eternal optimist.  And it's not a lockstep with GnR company opinion.

[D-GenerationX]

Can you imagine if he did die, someone cracked open the vault, and what was inside was pretty awesome?  That's like an 'Outer Limits' sort of ending.

[sofine11]

I look at it like this:  If initially, the plan was to put the next album out a year after Chinese, they must have had a rough idea what the tracklist was going to look like.  Also, these songs would have had to be finished, if the plan was to tour in 2009, and then drop the next record in the fall. 

Point being, they must have had a lot of confidence in the songs slated for the next album, and they absolutely must have vocals already laid down.  We know that's the case for at least a handful of the songs (The General, Silkworms, Atlas, Soul Monster.)  This is why I remain optimistic regarding these tracks.

I agree. 

Which is one of the reasons why I think the label issues might be a factor.  Probably not the whole story, but at least part of it.

I also think there's a couple other possible contributors:

Axl's perfectionism.
The band turnover since then. And the possible incorporation of "new ideas" into the existing tracks or the "expunging" of former members...and the wrangling that would surround it.
A desire to rework the tracks to be more "marketable" given the feedback/reviews of CD (obviously this would be at the behest of the label, since I think Axl cares about marketable as much as I care about polar bear shit).
A creative "post mortem" of CD by Axl (and possibly the new members of the band) which led him/then to think they could make the tracks better, creatively, prior to release.
A "falling out of love" with the material by Axl...who has moved on to his next tangent/big thing/creative inspiration.  To be honest, I'm not sure he's that fickle, but....maybe.

I'll allow, though I don't particularly buy into, for the "Axl isn't motivated to create" point, too...since I just don't know.  But he seems like a guy for who music is catharis...whether that music is "releasable" or not.  Unless he's replaced music with a good therapist, I have a hard time believing he's utterly, creatively, "dead in the water".  Whether any of what he's created is good enough to "release" (in his mind, the labels mind, or the fans minds)....that's the question, for me.  And there's no way to get an answer....

I think us hearing these old working titles we've been talking about for years ultimately depends on how emotionally attached Axl is to them.  I would hope that's the case with at least a handful of them, to the point where it would not require the current lineup re-inventing the wheel in the studio whenever they'd get around to it.

I've never witnessed anyone who seemingly lives outside of time as much as Axl Rose, but who knows, he may know exactly what songs he wants on the next record, and exactly when he'll pull the trigger and put them out, and all we can do is wait.

I just hope he knows how much hearing this music means to so many of us.  Sometimes I wonder.

[pilferk]

I think I struggle with his lack of desire to release anything because he worked so hard and so long on all this.

He had a comment somewhere along the line that they weren't doing all this work to have it never see the light of day.  I wonder what happened to that mindset.  If for no other reason to be able to tell the world I haven't actually been sitting on my ass for 15 years, because look what I did.

You have to try to get into his headspace.

Is music his profession?

Or is music just who he is....and he happens to make money at it.

If it's his profession.....you make a fair point.

But there are plenty of artists...whether you'd call them that or not...who create art for their own personal expression. Plenty of artists for who the commercial side was either an afterthought, a non factor, a neccessary evil, and/or an abject perversion. Instead, it's like catharsis for them. It's something they're compelled to do, almost..whether earning a living at it or not. And IF they make money at it, that's a bonus (or a curse, depending on the artist).  But it's not their primary intent/interest. It's something they deal with, not something they aim for.

I suspect Axl's quote was in deference to his band mates, who did all the work with him...and his desire to have something come of their efforts FOR THEM.

Maybe that's changed, or maybe there have been conversations/events that have convinced him otherwise.  I don't know.

You might not agree with the above...but at least be open to the fact it MIGHT be true.  If you look at a lot of Axl's actions over his career, and view through that lens.....you get an interesting picture painted (no pun intended) for you.  It might not be an accurate one, but it's interesting.

[pilferk]

Can you imagine if he did die, someone cracked open the vault, and what was inside was pretty awesome?  That's like an 'Outer Limits' sort of ending.

Honestly, there are days/times I think this is the most likely outcome to all this. Less than I did prior to CD's release..but it still "haunts" me...as depressing as it is.

We've seen it with Biggy, Tupac, Elvis, The Beatles (still)....many other artists.