Proof that Slash & Duff lied about signing over the GNR name.

[jacdaniel]

The books are their opinions and their perception of events. 
They're not wrong, its just how they viewed events.

I know some pedantic fans read these books and look for any error they can find, even something as small as a date of a concert or anything like that. 

The reality is, the books are not supposed to be taken so seriously that every single date has to add up.

[D-GenerationX]

The books are their opinions and their perception of events. 
They're not wrong, its just how they viewed events.

I know some pedantic fans read these books and look for any error they can find, even something as small as a date of a concert or anything like that. 

The reality is, the books are not supposed to be taken so seriously that every single date has to add up.

Good post.

Whenever I hear people lament that a movie "based on a true story" has a few details wrong, I always remind them its a movie, not a documentary.  I would say the same with any sort of memoir.

[slashsbaconpit]

Ha. It's like 15 years of media "coverage" of GNR just went down the toilet. Look at how many times it's been written that Axl "fired Duff and Slash" and how many people have blamed him for the implosion of the original lineup.

Yet this document shows that wasn't the case at all. Very interesting stuff!
 

Don't think it changes much if anything at all, really.
Classic lineup essentially disbanded because they couldn't go along to get along.
Yet, Slash, Duff, Matt (and for a short while, Izzy) got along well enough to form a new band.

For me, the real question remains unanswered. Why?
Why all the trouble for the name, only to do next to nothing with it?

Couldn't have been the plan, right?
So how did GN'R go from being the most dangerous band in the world to the soap opera it's become today?

What it changes is the claims made by former band members that Axl essentially blackmailed them into signing off on deal that took their stake out of GNR. This oft repeated story has been used to vilify Rose in the press for two decades.

Essentially, you are correct. The band couldn't get along and it broke up, so why does this matter? However, what this changes is the nuance of how that occurred. It proves that it likely wasn't just one guy's issues. Like any relationship, when it breaks apart there is generally a pretty good amount of blame to be spread around. Duff was pretty candid in his book that he didn't blame Axl, and holds no ill will toward him. So where do "fans" and the press get off doing so?

[D-GenerationX]

What it changes is the claims made by former band members that Axl essentially blackmailed them into signing off on deal that took their stake out of GNR. This oft repeated story has been used to vilify Rose in the press for two decades.

Essentially, you are correct. The band couldn't get along and it broke up, so why does this matter? However, what this changes is the nuance of how that occurred. It proves that it likely wasn't just one guy's issues. Like any relationship, when it breaks apart there is generally a pretty good amount of blame to be spread around. Duff was pretty candid in his book that he didn't blame Axl, and holds no ill will toward him. So where do "fans" and the press get off doing so?

I get that, to a point.

But Axl has a shit ton of baggage, very much of which he packed himself.  I know the story about how he got the name had been repeated for a few years, but I'm not sure that was the event that moved him into the "bad guy" column, you know?

In fact, if anything, Axl's own behavior for his first 10 years in the public eye likely helped make the repeated story sound extremely plausible and probably likely in the eyes of most.  If you heard the same story about a guy like Bono or Eddie Vedder, you'd think it was a bit off.  But who heard that story about Axl (accurate or no) and had to take more than 2 seconds to consider it might well be true?

And has been said many times, why let that story gain steam all that time?  Its too late to unring that bell now, which is unfortunate for him.

[JAEBALL]

Ha. It's like 15 years of media "coverage" of GNR just went down the toilet. Look at how many times it's been written that Axl "fired Duff and Slash" and how many people have blamed him for the implosion of the original lineup.

Yet this document shows that wasn't the case at all. Very interesting stuff!
 

Don't think it changes much if anything at all, really.
Classic lineup essentially disbanded because they couldn't go along to get along.
Yet, Slash, Duff, Matt (and for a short while, Izzy) got along well enough to form a new band.

For me, the real question remains unanswered. Why?
Why all the trouble for the name, only to do next to nothing with it?

Couldn't have been the plan, right?
So how did GN'R go from being the most dangerous band in the world to the soap opera it's become today?

What it changes is the claims made by former band members that Axl essentially blackmailed them into signing off on deal that took their stake out of GNR. This oft repeated story has been used to vilify Rose in the press for two decades.

Essentially, you are correct. The band couldn't get along and it broke up, so why does this matter? However, what this changes is the nuance of how that occurred. It proves that it likely wasn't just one guy's issues. Like any relationship, when it breaks apart there is generally a pretty good amount of blame to be spread around. Duff was pretty candid in his book that he didn't blame Axl, and holds no ill will toward him. So where do "fans" and the press get off doing so?

I think the knowledgable fan understands that it was Doug Goldstein who appeared to hint to Slash and Duff that they had no choice but to sign

and since he did so on Axl's behalf (with him knowing or not) thats why Slash and Duff felt that they were blackmailed...again.. they are not lying..just how it was presented to them

Duff is as chill as they come and realizes the issues and the mistakes he made... not sure why Axl and Slash cant

[gnrfan1797]

Ha. It's like 15 years of media "coverage" of GNR just went down the toilet. Look at how many times it's been written that Axl "fired Duff and Slash" and how many people have blamed him for the implosion of the original lineup.

Yet this document shows that wasn't the case at all. Very interesting stuff!
 

Don't think it changes much if anything at all, really.
Classic lineup essentially disbanded because they couldn't go along to get along.
Yet, Slash, Duff, Matt (and for a short while, Izzy) got along well enough to form a new band.

For me, the real question remains unanswered. Why?
Why all the trouble for the name, only to do next to nothing with it?

Couldn't have been the plan, right?
So how did GN'R go from being the most dangerous band in the world to the soap opera it's become today?

What it changes is the claims made by former band members that Axl essentially blackmailed them into signing off on deal that took their stake out of GNR. This oft repeated story has been used to vilify Rose in the press for two decades.

Essentially, you are correct. The band couldn't get along and it broke up, so why does this matter? However, what this changes is the nuance of how that occurred. It proves that it likely wasn't just one guy's issues. Like any relationship, when it breaks apart there is generally a pretty good amount of blame to be spread around. Duff was pretty candid in his book that he didn't blame Axl, and holds no ill will toward him. So where do "fans" and the press get off doing so?

I think the knowledgable fan understands that it was Doug Goldstein who appeared to hint to Slash and Duff that they had no choice but to sign

and since he did so on Axl's behalf (with him knowing or not) thats why Slash and Duff felt that they were blackmailed...again.. they are not lying..just how it was presented to them

Duff is as chill as they come and realizes the issues and the mistakes he made... not sure why Axl and Slash cant

Agreed Jaeball.

Just got one question. Is this paper going to change anything today? No, it's not.

[D-GenerationX]

Just got one question. Is this paper going to change anything today? No, it's not.

And I'm right with you.  I've been asking that question since all this broke.  What I'm told is that it does matter because a "false" story was put out and now we have the "correct" one.

I can only speak for myself, but this is the epitome of shoulder shrug "news" to me.  I'm more interested in hearing these supposed 2-3 new songs then overanalyzing some supposed "A-ha!!" moment from a document signed 20 years ago.

[JAEBALL]

Just got one question. Is this paper going to change anything today? No, it's not.

And I'm right with you.  I've been asking that question since all this broke.  What I'm told is that it does matter because a "false" story was put out and now we have the "correct" one.

I can only speak for myself, but this is the epitome of shoulder shrug "news" to me.  I'm more interested in hearing these supposed 2-3 new songs then overanalyzing some supposed "A-ha!!" moment from a document signed 20 years ago.

I just find it annoying that if this was something that Axl supposedly "lied" about then the original post would have been deleted immediately

But if we are going to discuss it, might as well point out the obvious issues with the whole drama on all sides

and ur right... i hope we hear some new songs during this south american run.... it will be a big let down if we dont

because when i leave work tonight or one night in the near future and pop on a cd in my car... id love to listen to a new song by Axl

[Ali]

Ha. It's like 15 years of media "coverage" of GNR just went down the toilet. Look at how many times it's been written that Axl "fired Duff and Slash" and how many people have blamed him for the implosion of the original lineup.

Yet this document shows that wasn't the case at all. Very interesting stuff!
 

Don't think it changes much if anything at all, really.
Classic lineup essentially disbanded because they couldn't go along to get along.
Yet, Slash, Duff, Matt (and for a short while, Izzy) got along well enough to form a new band.

For me, the real question remains unanswered. Why?
Why all the trouble for the name, only to do next to nothing with it?

Couldn't have been the plan, right?
So how did GN'R go from being the most dangerous band in the world to the soap opera it's become today?

What it changes is the claims made by former band members that Axl essentially blackmailed them into signing off on deal that took their stake out of GNR. This oft repeated story has been used to vilify Rose in the press for two decades.

Essentially, you are correct. The band couldn't get along and it broke up, so why does this matter? However, what this changes is the nuance of how that occurred. It proves that it likely wasn't just one guy's issues. Like any relationship, when it breaks apart there is generally a pretty good amount of blame to be spread around. Duff was pretty candid in his book that he didn't blame Axl, and holds no ill will toward him. So where do "fans" and the press get off doing so?

I think the knowledgable fan understands that it was Doug Goldstein who appeared to hint to Slash and Duff that they had no choice but to sign

and since he did so on Axl's behalf (with him knowing or not) thats why Slash and Duff felt that they were blackmailed...again.. they are not lying..just how it was presented to them

Duff is as chill as they come and realizes the issues and the mistakes he made... not sure why Axl and Slash cant

No, it is the assuming fan who THINKS/BELIEVES it was Doug Goldstein who hinted that they had to sign off on a partnership agreement that included that stipulation.  Could Doug have played a role?  In some sense, yes.  But, given that the agreement was signed when GN'R wasn't even on tour, and that same agreement was cited into evidence by Slash and Duff in a lawsuit in 2004 against Axl (er go it is the standing partnership agreement), it could not have happened the way Slash and Duff have described.

Ali

[Princess Leia]

Ha. It's like 15 years of media "coverage" of GNR just went down the toilet. Look at how many times it's been written that Axl "fired Duff and Slash" and how many people have blamed him for the implosion of the original lineup.

Yet this document shows that wasn't the case at all. Very interesting stuff!
 

Don't think it changes much if anything at all, really.
Classic lineup essentially disbanded because they couldn't go along to get along.
Yet, Slash, Duff, Matt (and for a short while, Izzy) got along well enough to form a new band.

For me, the real question remains unanswered. Why?
Why all the trouble for the name, only to do next to nothing with it?

Couldn't have been the plan, right?
So how did GN'R go from being the most dangerous band in the world to the soap opera it's become today?

You wanna know why all the trouble about the name? Ok. Back in 2008 or around that time, during his chats. I think it was in Mygnrforum Axl himself explained that back when Alan Niven was the manager Niven wanted to fire him. According to Axl, Niven was trying to persuade the other members about firing Axl. When Axl found out he wanted to strike back. So Axl and his entourage (Goldstein or Geffen or his lawyers) plan was to get the name for Axl. So if Axl was fired he was the one with the right to use the name. I don?t know who told Axl about the plan that Niven had. I don?t know if in fact Niven had that plan at all. But Axl was told that.

Keep in mind that I?m not quoting. I just made a long story short. Besides we all know that Alan Niven got fired not Axl. So any danger was gone. Still it seems Axl was determined, maybe still afraid. The name was his idea. He came up with it back at the time when Tracii, Ole and Rob were in GN?R. So technically only Axl and, if you want , Izzy were the bosses. Duff, Slash and Steven joined later. However they were no strangers. They all knew each other, they were somewhat friends.  That?s why they get it done quikly before their first show at the Troubadour back in june 1985.

I?m not saying I?m justifying Axl?s actions. I?m just giving you an anwer

[D-GenerationX]

I recall Axl telling that story as well.

I believe the gist was that Niven went to the others and said Axl was unpredictable and unreliable and would ultimately be a problem.  So get a new singer in place before you really hit it big and don't let that happen.

Kind of shitty?  Yeah, I suppose.  But was Niven wrong?  Look how this all turned out.  Niven was basically trying to pull an Iron Maiden.  Get rid of your Di'Anno now (Axl) and gets someone more reliable, their own Dickinson.

[pilferk]

I recall Axl telling that story as well.

I believe the gist was that Niven went to the others and said Axl was unpredictable and unreliable and would ultimately be a problem.  So get a new singer in place before you really hit it big and don't let that happen.

Kind of shitty?  Yeah, I suppose.  But was Niven wrong?  Look how this all turned out.  Niven was basically trying to pull an Iron Maiden.  Get rid of your Di'Anno now (Axl) and gets someone more reliable, their own Dickinson.

There's a pretty big "what if" in that, though...

Would they have gotten nearly as big without Axl?

We'll never know, but I suspect not.  It was the sum of those parts...all of them..that made AFD what it was.

So..was Niven wrong about there ultimately being strife in the band? No (and again, I'm not sure I lay that completely at the feet of Axl, alone...though he certainly bears a fair share of culpability).

But was he wrong in the advice he gave to get rid of Axl?  I think...and this is just me...that answer is yes.  And, another question...if he had left well enough alone, and all the back biting hadn't gotten back to Axl...would there still have been AS much strife, bitterness, and "combat"?

We'll never know...

[gnrfan1797]

It's time for an Axl tell all book 

[JAEBALL]

It's time for an Axl tell all book 

if he does.... I hope he gets all of his dates precise 

[JAEBALL]

Ha. It's like 15 years of media "coverage" of GNR just went down the toilet. Look at how many times it's been written that Axl "fired Duff and Slash" and how many people have blamed him for the implosion of the original lineup.

Yet this document shows that wasn't the case at all. Very interesting stuff!
 

Don't think it changes much if anything at all, really.
Classic lineup essentially disbanded because they couldn't go along to get along.
Yet, Slash, Duff, Matt (and for a short while, Izzy) got along well enough to form a new band.

For me, the real question remains unanswered. Why?
Why all the trouble for the name, only to do next to nothing with it?

Couldn't have been the plan, right?
So how did GN'R go from being the most dangerous band in the world to the soap opera it's become today?

What it changes is the claims made by former band members that Axl essentially blackmailed them into signing off on deal that took their stake out of GNR. This oft repeated story has been used to vilify Rose in the press for two decades.

Essentially, you are correct. The band couldn't get along and it broke up, so why does this matter? However, what this changes is the nuance of how that occurred. It proves that it likely wasn't just one guy's issues. Like any relationship, when it breaks apart there is generally a pretty good amount of blame to be spread around. Duff was pretty candid in his book that he didn't blame Axl, and holds no ill will toward him. So where do "fans" and the press get off doing so?

I think the knowledgable fan understands that it was Doug Goldstein who appeared to hint to Slash and Duff that they had no choice but to sign

and since he did so on Axl's behalf (with him knowing or not) thats why Slash and Duff felt that they were blackmailed...again.. they are not lying..just how it was presented to them

Duff is as chill as they come and realizes the issues and the mistakes he made... not sure why Axl and Slash cant

No, it is the assuming fan who THINKS/BELIEVES it was Doug Goldstein who hinted that they had to sign off on a partnership agreement that included that stipulation.  Could Doug have played a role?  In some sense, yes.  But, given that the agreement was signed when GN'R wasn't even on tour, and that same agreement was cited into evidence by Slash and Duff in a lawsuit in 2004 against Axl (er go it is the standing partnership agreement), it could not have happened the way Slash and Duff have described.

Ali

Well yeah I think Goldstein played a very large role in the confusion and turmoil

[faldor]

I recall Axl telling that story as well.

I believe the gist was that Niven went to the others and said Axl was unpredictable and unreliable and would ultimately be a problem.  So get a new singer in place before you really hit it big and don't let that happen.

Kind of shitty?  Yeah, I suppose.  But was Niven wrong?  Look how this all turned out.  Niven was basically trying to pull an Iron Maiden.  Get rid of your Di'Anno now (Axl) and gets someone more reliable, their own Dickinson.

There's a pretty big "what if" in that, though...

Would they have gotten nearly as big without Axl?

We'll never know, but I suspect not.  It was the sum of those parts...all of them..that made AFD what it was.

So..was Niven wrong about there ultimately being strife in the band? No (and again, I'm not sure I lay that completely at the feet of Axl, alone...though he certainly bears a fair share of culpability).

But was he wrong in the advice he gave to get rid of Axl?  I think...and this is just me...that answer is yes.  And, another question...if he had left well enough alone, and all the back biting hadn't gotten back to Axl...would there still have been AS much strife, bitterness, and "combat"?

We'll never know...

Yep, lots of what if's in that situation.  If Duff and Slash kept the name and turned to a different singer they may have gone through similar struggles that Axl has gone through and the burdens (and royalties) the brand name brings.  We've already seen they haven't exactly been able to keep Velvet Revolver together for more than 5 years, so who's to say what would've happened. 

The way I look at it, that original lineup was explosive and made their mark on the musical landscape.  They will never be forgotten, but they just weren't meant to last long.  It's unfortunate, but Slash is doing better than ever right now it seems.  Duff seems quite content as well.  And as much as you want to bag on Axl for his lack of productivity, he seems happier now than he has in many years.  At least the last time we saw and heard from him.  Obviously he's still dealing with some legal matters and has his issues with the label, but it seems he's genuinely satisfied with the current lineup and enjoys performing.  I could be way off, but that's the perception I get.

If they stayed together, who knows what would've happened.  But I don't see how it could've had a happy ending.  So I just enjoy what we have now, whatever that may be.  I hope for new music someday, but certainly don't expect anything.

And lastly, people want to compare GNR to other pop acts, current rock groups, or their contemporaries.  There's simply no comparison.  Times have changed, players have changed, etc.  GNR is simply not run like other bands and the reasons for that seem pretty obvious so people are either choosing to ignore them or are underestimating them.

[D-GenerationX]

And as much as you want to bag on Axl for his lack of productivity, he seems happier now than he has in many years.  At least the last time we saw and heard from him.  Obviously he's still dealing with some legal matters and has his issues with the label, but it seems he's genuinely satisfied with the current lineup and enjoys performing.  I could be way off, but that's the perception I get.

This is definitely the most positive thing with the current band.  Axl does seem to be having fun onstage.

Many shows of the UYI tour, it almost looks like he's being sent out there at gunpoint.  Didn't seem happy, didn't even try to hide it.

[faldor]

And as much as you want to bag on Axl for his lack of productivity, he seems happier now than he has in many years.  At least the last time we saw and heard from him.  Obviously he's still dealing with some legal matters and has his issues with the label, but it seems he's genuinely satisfied with the current lineup and enjoys performing.  I could be way off, but that's the perception I get.

This is definitely the most positive thing with the current band.  Axl does seem to be having fun onstage.

Many shows of the UYI tour, it almost looks like he's being sent out there at gunpoint.  Didn't seem happy, didn't even try to hide it.

Even some shows with the current lineup it seemed that way.  First his mini rant in Japan when they re-emerged about 2007 being the worst year of his life.  Then at Rock in Rio he seemed disappointed in his performance and in Dublin when he stood in one place the whole show after walking off stage.  I didn't like seeing him like that.  More recently though, he seems to be in a much better place, which is good to see. 

[pilferk]

I recall Axl telling that story as well.

I believe the gist was that Niven went to the others and said Axl was unpredictable and unreliable and would ultimately be a problem.  So get a new singer in place before you really hit it big and don't let that happen.

Kind of shitty?  Yeah, I suppose.  But was Niven wrong?  Look how this all turned out.  Niven was basically trying to pull an Iron Maiden.  Get rid of your Di'Anno now (Axl) and gets someone more reliable, their own Dickinson.

There's a pretty big "what if" in that, though...

Would they have gotten nearly as big without Axl?

We'll never know, but I suspect not.  It was the sum of those parts...all of them..that made AFD what it was.

So..was Niven wrong about there ultimately being strife in the band? No (and again, I'm not sure I lay that completely at the feet of Axl, alone...though he certainly bears a fair share of culpability).

But was he wrong in the advice he gave to get rid of Axl?  I think...and this is just me...that answer is yes.  And, another question...if he had left well enough alone, and all the back biting hadn't gotten back to Axl...would there still have been AS much strife, bitterness, and "combat"?

We'll never know...

Yep, lots of what if's in that situation.  If Duff and Slash kept the name and turned to a different singer they may have gone through similar struggles that Axl has gone through and the burdens (and royalties) the brand name brings.  We've already seen they haven't exactly been able to keep Velvet Revolver together for more than 5 years, so who's to say what would've happened. 

The way I look at it, that original lineup was explosive and made their mark on the musical landscape.  They will never be forgotten, but they just weren't meant to last long.  It's unfortunate, but Slash is doing better than ever right now it seems.  Duff seems quite content as well.  And as much as you want to bag on Axl for his lack of productivity, he seems happier now than he has in many years.  At least the last time we saw and heard from him.  Obviously he's still dealing with some legal matters and has his issues with the label, but it seems he's genuinely satisfied with the current lineup and enjoys performing.  I could be way off, but that's the perception I get.

If they stayed together, who knows what would've happened.  But I don't see how it could've had a happy ending.  So I just enjoy what we have now, whatever that may be.  I hope for new music someday, but certainly don't expect anything.

And lastly, people want to compare GNR to other pop acts, current rock groups, or their contemporaries.  There's simply no comparison.  Times have changed, players have changed, etc.  GNR is simply not run like other bands and the reasons for that seem pretty obvious so people are either choosing to ignore them or are underestimating them.

Agree, all the way around. Just be careful, though. There are those who find fans who are generally content to be unfathomable creatures!

[draguns]

Here's what I don't get about Axl and Slash. It seems like Niven and Goldstein were the two driving forces that started the demise of Guns N' Roses. Now that both of them are out why doesn't Axl and Slash at least talk things out and air out their differences? At least there could be  peace between them two. I just don't get their egos.