Proof that Slash & Duff lied about signing over the GNR name.

[Limulus]

"rockerman" from another board wrote this:

"Legally speaking this GNR is not structured the same as the old GNR and id bet that there is some behind the scenes legal suites to block access to any and all of the old material. Axl cockblocked the old band from capitalizing on the idea that the old music could be utilized in movies..even went so far as to have the new band record the whole AFD material ..(and did so under the guise that they had to learn it in the first place)The real reason was to reduce actual revenue streams to the old group. Its complicated but the actual playing and using of the song increase in % depending on who is playing on the recording.
But take for instance the use of WTTJ in BlackHawk Down...that would have been a bonanza for old GNR to make some revenue off of but Axl flat out denied the use of it.


That legal manouver is so common in the US. A corporation can disperse and cease to exist legally and then turn around and restructure with the same name, same CEO,Same board and same players/employees etc BUT dump its stockholders and its pension plans and benifit policies.It can even change the terms of employment. It declares that it has gone out of business when in fact all it has done is shift laterly. It has dicked millions of people out of their retirement pensions and investment portfolios while consolidating its assets under another legal entity.Most of our car manufactures have done it, major electronic firms and manufacturing firms like Whirlpool. Its a shitty and unfair thing to do but it is legal.Insideof that manouver is also the protection of any of the old assets and business affairs from lawsuits. It absolves any wrongdoing of the Ceo and board from further legal threats to their assets etc...(for Axl that could have been a motivating factor given the myriad of legal issues he commented on in 08)
This is exactly what Axl did with GNR. He got the name, ended the old corporation and then turned around and made former memebers of that corporation ..hired employees and it changed thier ability to capitalize on OLD GNR ASSETS.

So many in this forum dont understand when they say "Slash quit the band" No Slash was reduced to a minor player and hired hand for AXLS new GNR entity.He and Duff and the rest of the crew were no longer able to make any decisions or choices in the direction , execution and image of GNR. Axl stated that way back in 95 when he said that Slash hadnt done business with GNR for something like 2 years.
When a band is signed they form a legal entity that defines who and what their business is about. Depending on the structure.. often its equal imput from the members. This was true of OLD GNR. TO make financial and business decisions required a vote. Just as in any and all corporations do. That was eliminated when Axl "quit" and legally disolved the old GNR legal entity and turned around and formed new GNR. That is what Paul Huge was doing on the record without consultation to the rest of the newly formed GNR entity but at that time the same band structure of old UYI era GNR. It was a shot across the bow of Slash and the rest of them that they would have NO SAY in the future business of GNR. That was Axls legal right. Thats what was behind him seeking out Fink before Slash departed. Absolute control over the GNR empire and its future enterprises.
Consider how controlled the present era is on band exposes like magazines features,photoshoots, cross over promotions, celebrity functions particularly when it is GNR related. Notice how squimish some of them get when asked about the future of GNR. Evasive to a large degree or vague about concrete plans. Im betting that none of them feel tremedously secure in thier positions. That isnt because the band doesnt want recognition or promotion individually as rockstars and music makers- that is Axls doing. The take home message is teh band...are employees and will remain in the background until further notice.

To further demonstrate how it would work. One day your the vice president of a megamillion dollar enterprise and you sit on the board making major decisions. You have a corner office and accesses to the companies assets, wealth fame control.... then the next day your a desk jockey in a cubicle getting coffee for your former equals with a reduced role and reduced salary and subject to termination at will. "

[carmiedisco12]

Outstanding post Limulus.

I still have no idea why this is not a dead horse topic and why those that bang on about moving on from the past have discussed this topic (the past) more than the bands future plans. Strange days indeed.

[LongGoneDay]

Very interesting.
I'm sure financially the move has paid off quite well for him.
Unfortunately, in terms of creativity and moving the band forward, it hasn't.
Maybe the right move for Axl, but hard to say it's paid off for Guns N' Roses.

[JAEBALL]

yeah, this is why I cringe when people say well the old guys quit on GNR/ Axl....


if i was in something from the beginning and then was forced in to being a hired hand.... id be gone too....

were they foolish to relinquish the name and the power to Axl? yeah absolutely, and they have nobody to blame but themselves for that...

but once they were told they had to sign on to be employees.... Axl had to know theyd walk... and if he didnt.. then he was shortsighted



bottom line... ALOT of ego on all sides ... it was destined to end sooner rather than later .... people can take all sides all they want because they "like" axl or slash etc


but there was no victim here.... except for the fans

[D-GenerationX]

yeah, this is why I cringe when people say well the old guys quit on GNR/ Axl....


if i was in something from the beginning and then was forced in to being a hired hand.... id be gone too....

were they foolish to relinquish the name and the power to Axl? yeah absolutely, and they have nobody to blame but themselves for that...

but once they were told they had to sign on to be employees.... Axl had to know theyd walk... and if he didnt.. then he was shortsighted



bottom line... ALOT of ego on all sides ... it was destined to end sooner rather than later .... people can take all sides all they want because they "like" axl or slash etc


but there was no victim here.... except for the fans

Well said, all around.

[sofine11]

yeah, this is why I cringe when people say well the old guys quit on GNR/ Axl....


if i was in something from the beginning and then was forced in to being a hired hand.... id be gone too....

were they foolish to relinquish the name and the power to Axl? yeah absolutely, and they have nobody to blame but themselves for that...

but once they were told they had to sign on to be employees.... Axl had to know theyd walk... and if he didnt.. then he was shortsighted



bottom line... ALOT of ego on all sides ... it was destined to end sooner rather than later .... people can take all sides all they want because they "like" axl or slash etc


but there was no victim here.... except for the fans

Holy cow, that was well said...

[pilferk]

"rockerman" from another board wrote this:

"Legally speaking this GNR is not structured the same as the old GNR and id bet that there is some behind the scenes legal suites to block access to any and all of the old material. Axl cockblocked the old band from capitalizing on the idea that the old music could be utilized in movies..even went so far as to have the new band record the whole AFD material ..(and did so under the guise that they had to learn it in the first place)The real reason was to reduce actual revenue streams to the old group. Its complicated but the actual playing and using of the song increase in % depending on who is playing on the recording.
But take for instance the use of WTTJ in BlackHawk Down...that would have been a bonanza for old GNR to make some revenue off of but Axl flat out denied the use of it.

Just some comments on the post:

The author of the above post is technically right, that the % of publishing fees changes depending on who's playing the song..but not by much.  And his insinuation isn't technically correct.

The Lions share goes to the artist(s) credited with WRITING the song.  The people playing get, relatively, less.  And all the AFD material is attributed, under authorship, to "Guns n Roses", rather than a specific member of the partnership.  That's right..the legal GNR PARTNERSHIP is recognized and, even though dissolved, those 5 original members are still in control of that material.  It has nothing to do with Guns n Roses, the band name (which was an asset of the original partnership).

So re-recording, while taking a pittance out of Slash, Duff's, Izzy, and Steven's pockets wouldn't really amount to all that much.

That legal manouver is so common in the US. A corporation can disperse and cease to exist legally and then turn around and restructure with the same name, same CEO,Same board and same players/employees etc BUT dump its stockholders and its pension plans and benifit policies.It can even change the terms of employment. It declares that it has gone out of business when in fact all it has done is shift laterly. It has dicked millions of people out of their retirement pensions and investment portfolios while consolidating its assets under another legal entity.Most of our car manufactures have done it, major electronic firms and manufacturing firms like Whirlpool. Its a shitty and unfair thing to do but it is legal.Insideof that manouver is also the protection of any of the old assets and business affairs from lawsuits. It absolves any wrongdoing of the Ceo and board from further legal threats to their assets etc...(for Axl that could have been a motivating factor given the myriad of legal issues he commented on in 08)
This is exactly what Axl did with GNR. He got the name, ended the old corporation and then turned around and made former memebers of that corporation ..hired employees and it changed thier ability to capitalize on OLD GNR ASSETS.

Again, there's some truth in there, but the insinuation isn't quite right.  The process the poster is talking about, whether they know it or not, is a form of bankruptcy restructuring.  The existing corporation does NOT technically cease to exist, though, but it does "reform".  This is how they protect their IP, assets, and property from creditors claiming it and taking it from them. It's more than a semantic difference.

AFAIK, this is NOT what Guns n Roses did.  The name was an asset of the old partnership (NOT corporation, I don't think, but a limited partnership).  When the partnership was dissolved, Axl retained that asset (as stipulated in the MOA, posted here, and attached to their partnership agreement).  The existing partnership is still recognized as having control of pretty much all the other partnership assets (ie: their songs).  In fact, this was largely what the 2004 settled lawsuit was supposed to hash out and, at the end of the day, we had the status quo.

Much of the rest is actually sort of true, if you think it through.  Once Axl had control of the name under his belt..the rest of the band couldn't operate under the name without HIS express permission.  So, in essence, you had a controlling "partner".  Financially, the other members still received all the payouts they were entitled to for their material...Axl has no control over that except to control what material was put on which album, maybe.  But Axl, if he was of a mind, could certainly take his ball and go home.

But this:

To further demonstrate how it would work. One day your the vice president of a megamillion dollar enterprise and you sit on the board making major decisions. You have a corner office and accesses to the companies assets, wealth fame control.... then the next day your a desk jockey in a cubicle getting coffee for your former equals with a reduced role and reduced salary and subject to termination at will. "

just isn't true at all.  It's not an accurate reflection of what actually occurred, though the end result might have been functionally the same.

Slash and Duff signed that MOA.  They handed the band name over to Axl, in the event of the partnership dissolution.

It's more like you were a co-owner of a multimillion dollar corporation that had a poison pill in it's articles of incorporation, and one you knowingly signed and approved.  One of the shareholders used it to take the brand you'd built with him, as he dissolved your corporation, and took it somewhere else to use it.  Again, all with forewarning and your express permission to allow him to do so.  HOWEVER, you still have joint control (and an ability to generate income) of everything ELSE that was created by that initial corporation.

And you can choose to either join the guy leaving, in a lesser position, or not.  But you'll always have Paris.
   

[pilferk]

yeah, this is why I cringe when people say well the old guys quit on GNR/ Axl....


if i was in something from the beginning and then was forced in to being a hired hand.... id be gone too....

were they foolish to relinquish the name and the power to Axl? yeah absolutely, and they have nobody to blame but themselves for that...

but once they were told they had to sign on to be employees.... Axl had to know theyd walk... and if he didnt.. then he was shortsighted



bottom line... ALOT of ego on all sides ... it was destined to end sooner rather than later .... people can take all sides all they want because they "like" axl or slash etc


but there was no victim here.... except for the fans

Ding ding ding ding ding ding...we have a winner.

Too much ego, too much hostility, and too many creative differences.

[GeorgeSteele]

Very interesting.
I'm sure financially the move has paid off quite well for him.
Unfortunately, in terms of creativity and moving the band forward, it hasn't.
Maybe the right move for Axl, but hard to say it's paid off for Guns N' Roses.

Reminds me of the Pink Floyd 'exchange a walk-on part in the war for a lead role in a cage' lyric. 

[Hudson]

Great Post by Lumilus and Jaeball.

I agree that there must be some legal issues that we are not privy to in the background that may be the cause of the new band not moving forward or at least partially to blame for taking the wind out of Axl's sails.

One of the things that always struck me was that back with the original band, Axl was the one that was out in front doing press interviews, coming out on MTV, wanting to perform on award shows, making videos, and promoting the shit out of the band to the point that they became the biggest band in the world. its common knowledge most of the old members hated doing videos, but did them because they were Axl's vision, which I believe is part of the reason they became so huge at the time. I always loved that they were the biggest band at one point in their career. However, Now it seems like Axl has done a 180 and decided not to promote the new band aside from touring, but not doing press interviews, or very few, no videos, and no promotions for CD when the album came out.

I understand that the music industry has now changed and they may not be able to attain that level of success again, but I think Axl has missed many opportunities to be back in the limelight and make GNR more popular than it is right now. I think we are getting a conflicting message by his actions that he wants the new band to be successful but yet their is no promotion  of the album. I don't think he is trying to be like Pearl Jam in that sense of being low key.

However, I  think he could have come out as the face of GNR and promoted the album with the new band to introduce the world to this version of GNR. The music is great, but as a previous poster noted when do you hear Street of Dreams on radio?

My point is, and Axl has said as much that he fought long and hard for the GNR name which is obviously important to him. Well now you have it, but you are not using it to its fullest potential. If you went through all these trials and tribulations and got what you wanted, don't let it go to waste. Im not saying he has to be a publicity whore and exploit the band commercially and sellout for the sake of making money, but I do think that its not fair to the fans and even more to the new members, because those guys have been putting in a lot of work and sacrifice flying under the radar for the last few years.

And yes before everybody starts bashing me I know... Axl doesn't owe anyone anything and he can do what he wants.

[ITARocker]

I never really cared about all this drama, reasons behind old gnr implosion have always been clear to me (the main one: rags to riches...) But I always find hilarious (almost embarassing) listening to Axl talking about Slash as the one who was trying to take over the band.
As you said,  everyone lost a lot in that war, and even the last man standing lost almost 10 years of artistic life... & for what?
The saddest thing is that they can't even shake hands after 20 years  

[D-GenerationX]

One of the things that always struck me was that back with the original band, Axl was the one that was out in front doing press interviews, coming out on MTV, wanting to perform on award shows, making videos, and promoting the shit out of the band to the point that they became the biggest band in the world. its common knowledge most of the old members hated doing videos, but did them because they were Axl's vision, which I believe is part of the reason they became so huge at the time. I always loved that they were the biggest band at one point in their career. However, Now it seems like Axl has done a 180 and decided not to promote the new band aside from touring, but not doing press interviews, or very few, no videos, and no promotions for CD when the album came out.

True, in the beginning.

But even look by the time of the UYI tour.  Slash and Duff were doing a lot of the press.  I actually think that's one of the things holding back the new line-up.  If Axl couldn't be bothered, he could send Slash and Duff in his stead.  But can you send out DJ and Tommy?  I don't know.

My point is, and Axl has said as much that he fought long and hard for the GNR name which is obviously important to him. Well now you have it, but you are not using it to its fullest potential. If you went through all these trials and tribulations and got what you wanted, don't let it go to waste. Im not saying he has to be a publicity whore and exploit the band commercially and sellout for the sake of making money, but I do think that its not fair to the fans and even more to the new members, because those guys have been putting in a lot of work and sacrifice flying under the radar for the last few years.

This is a big beef of mine too.  I think he does these guys a disservice by not putting them over for all their hard work and loyalty to what was, at times, a floundering operation, at best.

[nick6sic6]

I agree on the first part.
When I came to know and love this band Axl was somewhat of a ghost.Apart from seeing him on the official videos on mtv all the press interviews were mostly Slash.

Also,are we 100% sure that the documents are legit ? The only way to know the truth and only the truth is for a live TV/Radio debate between the 2.
Which will never happen so it's better to just drop the whole damn thing.
20 years have gone by....

[JAEBALL]

I never really cared about all this drama, reasons behind old gnr implosion have always been clear to me (the main one: rags to riches...) But I always find hilarious (almost embarassing) listening to Axl talking about Slash as the one who was trying to take over the band.
As you said,  everyone lost a lot in that war, and even the last man standing lost almost 10 years of artistic life... & for what?
The saddest thing is that they can't even shake hands after 20 years  

100 percent .... Damn that Slash !!! he tried to take over the band and do exactly what I did !! how dare he lol

now Axl is entitled to not like him and not want to be cool with him ever again... thats his right....

but to hate the man for doing exactly what you did.... like I said....big ego's involved... never good

[JAEBALL]

Marc Canter who very obviously cares about both guys personally says it best... they both come from different places and both really dont think they are wrong...

are Slash's dates wrong? yes they are

does he come off less than genuine sometimes? yeah he does

but to him... its the truth

and likewise for Axl..everything he thinks is the truth...is the truth to him... its always in the middle...so back to OP... this is not proof that Slash or Duff lied about anything

[draguns]

yeah, this is why I cringe when people say well the old guys quit on GNR/ Axl....


if i was in something from the beginning and then was forced in to being a hired hand.... id be gone too....

were they foolish to relinquish the name and the power to Axl? yeah absolutely, and they have nobody to blame but themselves for that...

but once they were told they had to sign on to be employees.... Axl had to know theyd walk... and if he didnt.. then he was shortsighted



bottom line... ALOT of ego on all sides ... it was destined to end sooner rather than later .... people can take all sides all they want because they "like" axl or slash etc


but there was no victim here.... except for the fans

Very well said!

[GypsySoul]

yeah, this is why I cringe when people say well the old guys quit on GNR/ Axl....


if i was in something from the beginning and then was forced in to being a hired hand.... id be gone too....

were they foolish to relinquish the name and the power to Axl? yeah absolutely, and they have nobody to blame but themselves for that...

but once they were told they had to sign on to be employees.... Axl had to know theyd walk... and if he didnt.. then he was shortsighted



bottom line... ALOT of ego on all sides ... it was destined to end sooner rather than later .... people can take all sides all they want because they "like" axl or slash etc


but there was no victim here.... except for the fans

us poor poor victim fans 
rock stars with egos??  Whodda thunk it! 
oh fuckin' please.  Seriously? 

you said it yourself ... it was destined to "end" sooner rather than later.
Whose to say if the AFD line-up stayed together at that time that it would have resulted in an implosion where everything GNR ceased to exist (including the spin-off bands/material by the ex-gunners).  They probably could've all retired and lived very comfortable lives on royalties alone.

And does anyone seriously think that till the day they die and beyond, each AFD members won't have "of GNR" associated with their name? 

Not only have the fans gotten to be witness to the amazing materials, artists & artistry in the evolution of Axl's vision of GNR, the fans also have gotten to be part of each & every ex-gunners' vision of where they want their art to go.

I'm no victim and I don't even have to pick a side.  I can have it all!!!
I WIN!!! 

[volcano62]

All I have to say is that they are fuckin' liars and I knew this since the very beginning.

Their books are full of fallacies and things don't add up.

[JAEBALL]

All I have to say is that they are fuckin' liars and I knew this since the very beginning.

Their books are full of fallacies and things don't add up.

Lol..... To each their own

[gnrfan1797]

All I have to say is that they are fuckin' liars and I knew this since the very beginning.

Their books are full of fallacies and things don't add up.

That is the most ignorant post I've ever read on here.