Chinese Democracy's Influence

[westcoast_junkie]

Not everyone can be like AC/DC, and good is that. It would be boring as hell...

This article was a very interesting read, and I hope more and more will do as the writer, give CD a second chance, only without the pre-judging. I think that most of the 'storm' is overwith, and people will forget it was popular to don't like CD. I don't believe the idea behind CD was to re-invent music, but To make the best album possible. You guys who says it doesn't sound like GnR are way of track IMO. Some songs has that industrial sound, but most of the songs actually could fit right into UYI, more or less.

[ITARocker]

  Plenty of great reviews of cd out there as well.That whole "the songs don't sound finished" just escapes me.

I think he meant (and it's my opinion too) the songs are so overproduced that they sound, paradoxically, like demos. You know, you can take pieces of different solos here and there in order to build a better one; you can mix a couple of riff, one recorded in 1999  and one recorded in 2006 or there are simply too many vocals recorded trough different years...And probably you haven't  played those songs all togheter at least once in order to get the right feel, sound, mood etc..  

You can try to hide all this kind of things with pro tools & co. but this is possibly even worse. That's why I like more the live performances of CD songs than the studio ones, because it's not like listening to a musical puzzle.  

[LongGoneDay]

Chinese Democracy marketed itself by the amount of musicians, money and time it took to make.
It was a legend before release.

That said, is it possible people were turned off by the first few songs and gave up on it?
Yeah, I can maybe see that. Especially with the expectations built up for so long, right or wrong.
I thought then and still feel that Chinese Democracy is a very bland song, and underwhelming intro.
Especially when accustomed to songs the caliber of WTTJ, Reckless Life, Civil War and RNDTH.
To this day I fail to see Axl's fascination with it as a song and album title.

I find Shackler's Revenge to be one of the most horrid songs my ears have heard.
Part of that is probably due to the fact that disco beats literally make me nauseous, and shock as I didn't expect to ever hear a song with Axl vocals I didn't enjoy(besides My World, which is at least good for a laugh). Still, I listened to it multiple times to see if I was missing something, if it was a grower. Turns out it wasn't, but it didn't prevent me from listening to the rest of the album and discovering songs and ideas I do appreciate. To the casual fan, maybe it's not worth the effort. Maybe they need instant gratification.
Maybe it's their loss.

I was surprised Street of Dreams wasn't the first single, as I felt that was a song fans of UYI could identify with and the song most resembling the style of the old band.
I personally think Street of Dreams and CITR are great songs, but I know plenty of GN'R diehards who were unimpressed with them and Chinese Democracy as a whole.

In the end I don't think CD is a hidden gem. I think it's an uneven album, and will continue to be viewed as such.
I do think the songs they got right(Street of Dreams, CITR) hold up well against anything else that's been released in recent history.

As far as experimenting, expanding sounds go, I don't have a problem with it. Thing is, right or wrong, many fans view it as Axl Rose personally experimenting with the GN'R sound and taking it into directions it never would have gone if the classic band hadn't disbanded.

Shackler's is a great example.
Axl needed certain people out of the way in order to take GN'R in that direction.

For fans of that sound, it's a good thing, but you should also see how it could alienate some of the fan base.
On the other end, Prostitute would also fall in that category. I enjoy that song, and am glad it happened.
Does it sound like GN'R to me? No, but I like the song and that's what matters in the end.

[jarmo]

As far as experimenting, expanding sounds go, I don't have a problem with it. Thing is, right or wrong, many fans view it as Axl Rose personally experimenting with the GN'R sound and taking it into directions it never would have gone if the classic band hadn't disbanded.

So you're saying people hold it against him for having a new band and using their talents to create something that doesn't sound like an exact clone of the old band?

That's weird.


Several of the songs sound like a natural progression from Use Your Illusion. Some are a bigger step away than others.

For example, Axl playing the piano melody from Prostitute as his piano solo before November Rain in 2002 and 2006-7 kinda shows you that those songs aren't that far away from each other.

People just focus on the layers they don't like and label some of the songs as not being a "GN'R sound".




/jarmo

[CBGNR]

  Fresh ears are required for CD not polluted by the history or apparent recording process,which seems always too take center stage.

[LongGoneDay]

As far as experimenting, expanding sounds go, I don't have a problem with it. Thing is, right or wrong, many fans view it as Axl Rose personally experimenting with the GN'R sound and taking it into directions it never would have gone if the classic band hadn't disbanded.

So you're saying people hold it against him for having a new band and using their talents to create something that doesn't sound like an exact clone of the old band?

That's weird.


Several of the songs sound like a natural progression from Use Your Illusion. Some are a bigger step away than others.

For example, Axl playing the piano melody from Prostitute as his piano solo before November Rain in 2002 and 2006-7 kinda shows you that those songs aren't that far away from each other.

People just focus on the layers they don't like and label some of the songs as not being a "GN'R sound".




/jarmo

Sure, but that's your opinion that some songs sound like natural progressions.
In others, mine included, they don't, and several sound like complete and total departures.

I don't think anyone's looking for "exact clones". Some were taken aback by the stark contrast in directions.

Like I said, there are positives and negatives to it. For me personally, there are songs I strongly dislike, and then songs I really enjoy.

The name debate will never end, because it is not black and white.
The majority, if not all of GN'R's pre CD output was blues based rock n' roll. It varied from stripped down to complex, but was rock n' roll at it's bones.

It wasn't until Izzy, Slash and company were out of the picture that it went in the industrial tinged direction(one example). A direction it wouldn't have had they stayed.
I agree, it doesn't make sense for new members to try and replicate past members styles. It makes sense to utilize their talents and create something fresh.
You could say that is the heart of the confusion in keeping the name.

[14 Yrs Of Silence]

I love bands who change their sound to some extent from album to album.  IMO, when you do the same thing album after album, it gets very boring.  AFD was a time and a place for Guns.  To try to create that sound over and over would be phony.  Its like rappers who are millionairres rapping about slinging rocks and being all gangsta.  Its fake.  I love the fact that each Guns album shows progression and that Axl is not afraid to do what he wants.  That should be embraced more.

[Princess Leia]

I hope this analogy works ok. I love Tarantino movies like many other people. Some will always say that Pulp Fiction is his best ever. Other enjoyed all of them but they like Kill Bill more. And others may think Django Unchanged is his best. There are different points of view. But they all can agree that all the movies are Tarantino movies. Django is not a sequel of Pulp Fiction. I don?t think people want sequels of Pulp Fiction. I clearly don?t. But I wouldn?t be very happy if Tarantino decides to direct a romantic comedy. Despite the fact that it could have a great cast, great story and great performances. That?s not what people expects from Tarantino.

[jarmo]

Sure, but that's your opinion that some songs sound like natural progressions.
In others, mine included, they don't, and several sound like complete and total departures.

So you can claim with a straight face that a song like This I Love is a departure from the old band's sound?

I don't think anyone's looking for "exact clones". Some were taken aback by the stark contrast in directions.

Of course. Maybe the same kind of people who were "upset" when Metallica cut their hair....?

It wasn't until Izzy, Slash and company were out of the picture that it went in the industrial tinged direction(one example). A direction it wouldn't have had they stayed.

You don't know that. Bands do change and try new things even though they don't change members. It comes down to the simple fact that people change.

I agree, it doesn't make sense for new members to try and replicate past members styles. It makes sense to utilize their talents and create something fresh.
You could say that is the heart of the confusion in keeping the name.

Maybe the confusion isn't the name but what people associate with it.

I mean, some people think of GN'R as a glam hair band! 




/jarmo

[WAR41]

I hear some similarities to UYI on CD.  Individual songs here and there would definitely fit as Illusions songs. 

One of the interesting things about CD is that it feels like the songs span over a decade of writing, and they probably do.  When bands record an album, such as AFD, its written at a specific point in time and it reflects the mindset of the band members at that point.  CD reflects likely a decade of writing with different band members constantly coming and going.  It is a true 'melting pot' of songs.  I mean look at This I Love, wasn't it supposed to be about Stephanie Seymour?  That was a LLLOOONNNGGG time ago.  For some this is great.  For others it is not so great.  I fall into the latter group.  I like individual songs on CD, but not the whole album.  In fact there are some songs I think are very underwhelming (Chinese Democracy the song falls into that category). 

I gave Axl credit when CD was released that he finally got his vision out.  I still believe its an eclectic mix of songs and for me the overall album is at the bottom of the GNR catalogue.  But funny enough, I really love There Was a Time.  I might even put it in my top 10 GNR songs.  But that isn't enough to give the entire album an A++. 

[LongGoneDay]

Sure, but that's your opinion that some songs sound like natural progressions.
In others, mine included, they don't, and several sound like complete and total departures.

So you can claim with a straight face that a song like This I Love is a departure from the old band's sound?

I don't think anyone's looking for "exact clones". Some were taken aback by the stark contrast in directions.

Of course. Maybe the same kind of people who were "upset" when Metallica cut their hair....?

It wasn't until Izzy, Slash and company were out of the picture that it went in the industrial tinged direction(one example). A direction it wouldn't have had they stayed.

You don't know that. Bands do change and try new things even though they don't change members. It comes down to the simple fact that people change.

I agree, it doesn't make sense for new members to try and replicate past members styles. It makes sense to utilize their talents and create something fresh.
You could say that is the heart of the confusion in keeping the name.

Maybe the confusion isn't the name but what people associate with it.

I mean, some people think of GN'R as a glam hair band! 




/jarmo

I think some songs sound like total departures, not all.
This I Love may not be a total departure, but I can't say it fits seamlessly with the back catalogue either.
Lyrically I find it very watered down in comparison to Axl's prior work.
Maybe that would be the case no matter who's playing behind him. Who knows.
I know it's rumored that track was a UYI holdover.

I could care less about Metallica's hair styles. Musically, I began losing interest in them with Black, and altogether with Load. Not bad music, I like some parts here and there, but the majority isn't my thing.
The core members collectively chose to take the band in that direction, and I respect that.

True nobody knows for sure, but I'm pretty damn confident Izzy wouldn't be into disco beats!
His critics would say he's loyal to the rock n' roll sound almost to a fault. There's a reason Axl allegedly added My World to UYI II w/o the band knowing. The ex-members have for the most part stuck to down and dirty rock, so I think we know where they stand.

How people could lump GN'R in with the hair bands is indeed confusing!

[jarmo]

I think some songs sound like total departures, not all.
This I Love may not be a total departure, but I can't say it fits seamlessly with the back catalogue either.

I'm curious to hear some more reasons to this besides your dislike for the lyrics.

True nobody knows for sure, but I'm pretty damn confident Izzy wouldn't be into disco beats!

You mean the same guy who's recorded reggae tracks?






/jarmo

[raindogs70]

Chinese Democracy came out at a weird time, people weren't buying music because they could get it for free in seconds. Artists who had put recording on hold for a while have been resurfacing and putting new music out, in Justin Timberlake's case, it was because he was on a successful run of movie roles.

[spgunner]

It's So Easy was born as an acoustic song.

November Rain dates way back before AFD, just like Don't Cry.

The same bitches who complain about CD were the same bitches who would complain about Estranged and other songs from Illusions when the record was released. And now they say these songs are classics. Good. If we measure the way history conducts this band,  This I Love among others will be classics for sure in a while ! 

I bet my ass the same bitches will be complaining about something new 10 years from now, saying it's not the same as CD.

[The Wight Gunner]

It's So Easy was born as an acoustic song.

November Rain dates way back before AFD, just like Don't Cry.

The same bitches who complain about CD were the same bitches who would complain about Estranged and other songs from Illusions when the record was released. And now they say these songs are classics. Good. If we measure the way history conducts this band,  This I Love among others will be classics for sure in a while ! 

I bet my ass the same bitches will be complaining about something new 10 years from now, saying it's not the same as CD.

Agreed, I put GH in the car the other day, and when Sympathy for the Devil came on I got to thinking about what Album it could have been put on, and other than Appetite for Destruction, it could have go on any of 'em.... A good song is a good song god damn it!, and CD id full of 'em.

[LongGoneDay]

It's So Easy was born as an acoustic song.

November Rain dates way back before AFD, just like Don't Cry.

The same bitches who complain about CD were the same bitches who would complain about Estranged and other songs from Illusions when the record was released. And now they say these songs are classics. Good. If we measure the way history conducts this band,  This I Love among others will be classics for sure in a while ! 

I bet my ass the same bitches will be complaining about something new 10 years from now, saying it's not the same as CD.

Normally I wouldn't respond to such a juvenile post, but hell it'll kill a few minutes..
Your post is chock full of non-points. What does It's So Easy being born acoustic prove exactly?
Why does it matter that November Rain dates back before AFD?

There are very few similarities between the back catalogue and Chinese Democracy.
The reasons are obvious and have been discussed many times over.
These reasons are more likely why the "bitches" as you so eloquently describe people who don't share your opinion don't consider Chinese Democracy tracks to be instant classics.
It's an entirely different band playing an entirely different style of music. Many were underwhelmed with the results.

No album hit me the way AFD did upon first listen. That record changed everything for me. Yet when UYI was released, I was not anything resembling disappointed by it.
Estranged was instantly one of my favorite songs, and remains so to this day.

Nothing off of Chinese hit me like the early albums. I don't get the hype behind This I Love.
You do, and that's fantastic. Us bitches are overjoyed that you like it.

As for your bet, fans yearning for a sound similar to Chinese are in the minority, so you're ass may be in jeopardy.

[LongGoneDay]

I think some songs sound like total departures, not all.
This I Love may not be a total departure, but I can't say it fits seamlessly with the back catalogue either.

I'm curious to hear some more reasons to this besides your dislike for the lyrics.

True nobody knows for sure, but I'm pretty damn confident Izzy wouldn't be into disco beats!

You mean the same guy who's recorded reggae tracks?






/jarmo

As to why I don't feel it fits seamlessly with the back catalogue?
At the risk of sounding redundant, it just doesn't sound like a song the classic lineup would write/play to my ears.
I know it's rumored to be a holdover, so if that's the case, perhaps there's a reason for that. Maybe they didn't feel it was up to snuff? or didn't represent them well?

Lyrically it almost feels like it was written by someone not the caliber of Axl.
Musically it obviously sounds as if it were written by another band of musicians.

Maybe the better question is how/why you feel it does fit seamlessly?

Izzy playing reggae didn't shock me personally a bit.
Players like Clapton, and his idol Richards went through periods of infatuation with it.

I'm not a fan of reggae, but don't feel it's the departure that the uptempo disco beats Shackler's Revenge is.
Sounds like a soulless and rigid drum machine, not something that would lend itself well at all to Izzy's loose playing style.
His reggae tracks were also recorded under his name, not the GN'R banner.
My point was that GN'R would not have gone in that direction with Izzy on board.

And again, this is speculation on my part. I understand we're playing make believe.

[jarmo]

As to why I don't feel it fits seamlessly with the back catalogue?
At the risk of sounding redundant, it just doesn't sound like a song the classic lineup would write/play to my ears.
I know it's rumored to be a holdover, so if that's the case, perhaps there's a reason for that. Maybe they didn't feel it was up to snuff? or didn't represent them well?

Lyrically it almost feels like it was written by someone not the caliber of Axl.
Musically it obviously sounds as if it were written by another band of musicians.

Oh yeah. Because they also didn't want to do November Rain. You got a point there....
But they did record November Rain....

So to say you don't think they would've been able to do This I love is just an assumption.

How many were surprised by the acoustic tracks on GN'R Lies? A band that was known for their songs based on electric guitars went acoustic. And then added piano and keyboards for the next albums...

Maybe the better question is how/why you feel it does fit seamlessly?

Because to me it's essentially a song based around an amazing  singer and a piano. Which is true for multiple GN'R songs.

Take November Rain and strip it off everything except the piano and vocals. Both songs have a similar core. Both songs represent a particular kind of GN'R's music to me.

The step seems pretty minimal between said songs to me.

Sounds like a soulless and rigid drum machine, not something that would lend itself well at all to Izzy's loose playing style.

No need to bring up Baron von Storm....

Just kidding!


Calling Brain's drumming soulless. 

His reggae tracks were also recorded under his name, not the GN'R banner.
My point was that GN'R would not have gone in that direction with Izzy on board.

And again, this is speculation on my part. I understand we're playing make believe.

Yes, and I disagree. I think some people just focus on the wrong things on certain songs.

you put a keyboard on a song and people focus on that. You use a drum machine and people focus on that etc etc.








/jarmo

[LongGoneDay]

I don't remember being surprised upon first listen of "Lies"
Pretty standard for rock n' roll bands to go the acoustic route really.

I grew up on bands like the Stones, Faces, Queen etc, so acoustic guitars, pianos, keyboards all seemed right in place as far as I was concerned.

Again, I don't have a problem with bands experimenting. I just didn't like the results (of Shackler's).
I stand by the opinion that it's a direction GN'R would not have gone in with classic members on board.

As far as This I Love goes, don't get me wrong, I love the idea of a stripped down song featuring Axl and a piano.
Again, just wasn't overly impressed with the results. Musically it is okay, but lyrically a bit "cat in the hat" ish to my ears.
Part of that is on me for high expectations, due to the fact that I hold Axl to a high standard as a songwriter.
His past work raised the bar pretty high. Plus considering the amount of time spent on the record, my expectations were probably built up even more.

Touche on Sorum!
I lobbed that one over for you, haha.

For the record, I appreciate Brain's talent as a drummer, just not into the Shackler beat.
Even though it dominates the song, I could get by it if there were other elements to appreciate, but for me, there just wasn't much.

Oh My God works well to me because Axl's lyrics/vocals are so powerful, it almost doesn't matter whats going on behind him.

[jarmo]

I don't remember being surprised upon first listen of "Lies"
Pretty standard for rock n' roll bands to go the acoustic route really.

I grew up on bands like the Stones, Faces, Queen etc, so acoustic guitars, pianos, keyboards all seemed right in place as far as I was concerned.

Having acoustic guitars in songs is one thing, releasing an EP with a mostly acoustic side is another. Especially when the band in question is known for their electric hard rock debut album...

Again, I don't have a problem with bands experimenting. I just didn't like the results (of Shackler's).
I stand by the opinion that it's a direction GN'R would not have gone in with classic members on board.

And I disagree.

Because we don't know.

As far as This I Love goes, don't get me wrong, I love the idea of a stripped down song featuring Axl and a piano.
Again, just wasn't overly impressed with the results. Musically it is okay, but lyrically a bit "cat in the hat" ish to my ears.
Part of that is on me for high expectations, due to the fact that I hold Axl to a high standard as a songwriter.
His past work raised the bar pretty high. Plus considering the amount of time spent on the record, my expectations were probably built up even more.

I guess we have different ways of seeing things.

Sometimes it's great to have lyrics that make you think. Sometimes they are more simple and make you feel something, instantly.

And sometimes you hear a great song, but then listen to the lyrics and they're just stupid. That has never happened with GN'R though. 

For the record, I appreciate Brain's talent as a drummer, just not into the Shackler beat.
Even though it dominates the song, I could get by it if there were other elements to appreciate, but for me, there just wasn't much.

Oh My God works well to me because Axl's lyrics/vocals are so powerful, it almost doesn't matter whats going on behind him.

Both songs have similarities don't you think?




/jarmo