Chinese Democracy's Influence

[SirTed]

Not here to argue for or against this guy's taste, or his opinion of the Album, or Axl.

I just thought he made some really interesting points about Axl's intentions and aspirations for the record. Worth a read at least.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/9499317/justin-timberlake-daft-punk-chinese-democracy-effect

 

[jaknudsen]

Thanks, cool read!

[HBK]

Good Report

 

[Princess Leia]

Great article for a good debate. The funy thing is the guy who wrote it should know his article is also old and late. This article belongs in early 2009. Anyway better later than never.  I just want to point out a couple of things I don?t see very clear.

He claims Axl wanted to invent the wheel with CD. How can he be so sure? All I can say is that Axl wanted to do something different. It makes sense because Axl was no longer the same person he was in 1985. A lot of water under the bridge in many ways in his life.

The writer also claims to know what fans want from Axl. I?m afraid there is no easy and simple answer to that. Some fans want a reunion of the old GN?R at all cost, no matter what. And others love the new band. And they think Better and Sorry are the best songs ever.

[kunzerd]

Water under the bridge? Have you listened to Chinese democracy?

[tippasaurus]

I think this tells you all you need to know about the success (or lack thereof) of CD:

I bought Chinese Democracy three days before its release date at an independent record store that displayed the album early. I put the CD in my car, listened to the first song ("Chinese Democracy"), and then got maybe 30 seconds into the second song ("Shackler's Revenge") before removing the CD from the player and never playing it again until last month. 

That's unfortunate.  I wonder how many other people did not even bother to give it a chance just based on its reputation?  I would disagree with the author's contention that CD is too different from the rest of GnR's catalog.  Yes, there are parts that kind of "push the envelope," but Street of Dreams, IRS, This I Love, Catcher in the Rye, and There Was a Time all could have easily fit in during the UYI era.  I think CD had a little bit of everything for everyone, but it was marketed poorly (to put it mildly).  Maybe if things would have been different had they released one of the aforementioned songs as a single to bring back fans of the UYI era?  I've had multiple people (who were fans of the UYI era) tell me they didn't bother listening to anything beyond the single Chinese Democracy because they assumed it was representative of the entire album.  I had to persuade them to give Street of Dreams or This I Love a listen.  Of course, they were pleasantly surprised with these songs... 

One can only hope that over the course of the next decade people will go back and give CD another listen and it will steadily earn some begrudging respect (as it did with the guy who wrote this article).

[WAR41]

I think CD had a little bit of everything for everyone, but it was marketed poorly (to put it mildly).  Maybe if things would have been different had they released one of the aforementioned songs as a single to bring back fans of the UYI era? 

I have thought about this of late.  I think its hard to say that it was marketed poorly simply because by the time the album was released it took on a mythical status.  Everybody who was a rock fan was curious to hear this album.  Then they heard a few songs and decided it was not for them.  If we were not in the digital age would it have sold more?  Of course, but that has affected everyone and GNR still struggled to measure up against other artists sales-wise with the release of CD.  From a traditional marketing standpoint you are probably right, but don't think people were not aware of the release of this album. 

[rebelhipi]

anyone givin an opinion about a album without hearing it, is just stupid

[WAR41]

anyone givin an opinion about a album without hearing it, is just stupid

But.... the author did listen to the album.  That is the whole purpose of this review.  Am I missing something? 

[CBGNR]

  Plenty of great reviews of cd out there as well.That whole "the songs don't sound finished" just escapes me.

[Princess Leia]

  Plenty of great reviews of cd out there as well.That whole "the songs don't sound finished" just escapes me.

This review is much more philosophical. The guy is talking about evolution and regression. As for "the songs don?t sound finish" It?s his personal opinion. It?s clear in the article that the songs were not what he wanted. But the point he is trying to make is that CD was a wake up call or warning for other artists. And that?s the positive side of CD. Basically he is saying that if you want to spend 10 years or more making a new album it?s ok. Just don?t do it the Axl?s way.

[SirTed]

I think you all bring up good points.

I was shocked, surprised, slightly pleasedand slightly disappointed by this article. I kinda liked that about it. The author is clearly ignorant about details here and there. That can be frustrating. He also simply expresses a different opinion about the final product than me, but that's okay too. But as someone previously stated, the authors philosophical POV, and CD's connection to the bevy of comeback albums was really interesting to me.

I'm just happy it appears a few folks found it as interesting as I did.

[draguns]

In some ways, I think the writer was right in saying that Axl tried to make the perfect album. In a MTV interview, Axl did say he wanted to bury AFD and maybe he was trying to do that with CD.   

I think CD went a little astray to what the GNR brand is as well. I do think that some songs like "Street of Dreams" and "There Was a Time" would have fit in the UYI lineup. However, something like "Shackler's Revenge" isn't really a GNR type of song. I can see it being a good Nine Inch Nails song, but not a GNR.  "This I Love" is a great song live because DJ brings back that bluesy sound while Axl bring back his voice. On CD, the song goes too much towards an Andrew Lloyd Weber sound which isn't Guns style. I know some people might not want to hear this, but I do think Axl would have had more leeway to be creative if he had retired the Guns name and went by his own name. When you think of Guns N' Roses, you think of the band as a bluesy hard rock band with attitude. 

This brings me to my third and final point. Axl just didn't have the right people. Too many people came in and out of the band which made the album disjointed. Buckethead and Robin Finck didn't fit in the band -neither by looks nor musical style-. I think the people that now are in the lineup actually wants to be in Guns and not looking for a paycheck. DJ brings back that "classic" GNR sound while Bumblefoot can experiment. I think the chemistry of the band is much better now than when CD was made.

CD was a lot to ask for in Axl as a result of high expectations and the breakup of the original band (I still would pick the originals to play even though I like the lineup with DJ and Bumblefoot). I think if a new album comes out that will be the comeback album since the lineup fits and much better chemistry is involved.

[jarmo]

In a MTV interview, Axl did say he wanted to bury AFD and maybe he was trying to do that with CD.   

Only problem with your theory is that he said it in 1990. I think it was...
And I think just like you, people took the meaning of what he said out of context.



Regarding your comments about certain songs not being GN'R type songs.

So you would say Patience was a GN'R type song? Or November Rain? None of them sound exactly like Appetite For Destruction.


Some people have this "obsession" with putting bands in categories and boxes. And if they dare to do something outside of that, it's "not their style".


Hell, wasn't You're Crazy written as a slower song originally until it was made into the "GN'R style song" everybody heard on Appetite? So who's to say what's a band's style and what's not?
Maybe the "problem" is that since somebody who's not into a certain sound or certain types of songs, it's just easier to say the band shouldn't sound like that, than to admit that the "problem" is the person's limitation. Not the band.


For example, if a person thinks the keyboard is the worst invention ever, do you honestly think that person is gonna enjoy an album where the instrument is heavily used? So is the problem the artist using the keyboard, or the person's dislike for the instrument?

It's a matter of taste, but to use your own personal taste as a rule to say things like "this isn't the band's sound" is just kinda silly. It might not be the sound you prefer. But sticking to something safe and repeating yourself can get boring too.

What's wrong with creativity?




/jarmo

[GNR4L]

I always thought Better was the one song, that would tell everyone GnR was back & people would take notice.  Then again management at the time obviously didnt help CD & we all know about the label.  Don't really agree with the article itself, I do miss the days of waiting for it to be released though.

[Scabbie]

In a MTV interview, Axl did say he wanted to bury AFD and maybe he was trying to do that with CD.   

Only problem with your theory is that he said it in 1990. I think it was...
And I think just like you, people took the meaning of what he said out of context.



Regarding your comments about certain songs not being GN'R type songs.

So you would say Patience was a GN'R type song? Or November Rain? None of them sound exactly like Appetite For Destruction.


Some people have this "obsession" with putting bands in categories and boxes. And if they dare to do something outside of that, it's "not their style".


Hell, wasn't You're Crazy written as a slower song originally until it was made into the "GN'R style song" everybody heard on Appetite? So who's to say what's a band's style and what's not?
Maybe the "problem" is that since somebody who's not into a certain sound or certain types of songs, it's just easier to say the band shouldn't sound like that, than to admit that the "problem" is the person's limitation. Not the band.


For example, if a person thinks the keyboard is the worst invention ever, do you honestly think that person is gonna enjoy an album where the instrument is heavily used? So is the problem the artist using the keyboard, or the person's dislike for the instrument?

It's a matter of taste, but to use your own personal taste as a rule to say things like "this isn't the band's sound" is just kinda silly. It might not be the sound you prefer. But sticking to something safe and repeating yourself can get boring too.

What's wrong with creativity?




/jarmo

I agree - UYI had a lot of diversity and creatvivity which in some ways makes them longer lasting than Appetite and awesome albums.

IF CD truly was intended as a double album I really hope it will be released someday exactly as intended. 5 years on I'd love to hear Axls thoughts on Chinese Democracy

[Princess Leia]

In some ways, I think the writer was right in saying that Axl tried to make the perfect album. In a MTV interview, Axl did say he wanted to bury AFD and maybe he was trying to do that with CD.   

I think CD went a little astray to what the GNR brand is as well. I do think that some songs like "Street of Dreams" and "There Was a Time" would have fit in the UYI lineup. However, something like "Shackler's Revenge" isn't really a GNR type of song. I can see it being a good Nine Inch Nails song, but not a GNR.  "This I Love" is a great song live because DJ brings back that bluesy sound while Axl bring back his voice. On CD, the song goes too much towards an Andrew Lloyd Weber sound which isn't Guns style. I know some people might not want to hear this, but I do think Axl would have had more leeway to be creative if he had retired the Guns name and went by his own name. When you think of Guns N' Roses, you think of the band as a bluesy hard rock band with attitude. 

This brings me to my third and final point. Axl just didn't have the right people. Too many people came in and out of the band which made the album disjointed. Buckethead and Robin Finck didn't fit in the band -neither by looks nor musical style-. I think the people that now are in the lineup actually wants to be in Guns and not looking for a paycheck. DJ brings back that "classic" GNR sound while Bumblefoot can experiment. I think the chemistry of the band is much better now than when CD was made.

CD was a lot to ask for in Axl as a result of high expectations and the breakup of the original band (I still would pick the originals to play even though I like the lineup with DJ and Bumblefoot). I think if a new album comes out that will be the comeback album since the lineup fits and much better chemistry is involved.

Yes, Axl said he wanted to bury AFD. He made a mistake. But hey! Mick Jagger made same mistake long before Axl. Jagger said he didn?t see himself playing Satisfaction all his life. Well, he is still singing Satisfaction. I understand that as singer you get tired of a particular song or album. But reality,the industry, show promoters can put people in places they don?t want to be.

I think you?re right about the NIN type of sound. And there I disagree with the article. The article claims Axl wanted to do something revolutionary. The way I see it, Axl just wanted to make a NIN type of album. Something like NIN meets GN?R. Axl wanted to experiment and that?s fine with me. However if every single new GN?R album is a different kind of experiment. In that case I?m not sure is the right way to go.

[Princess Leia]

In a MTV interview, Axl did say he wanted to bury AFD and maybe he was trying to do that with CD.   

Only problem with your theory is that he said it in 1990. I think it was...
And I think just like you, people took the meaning of what he said out of context.



Regarding your comments about certain songs not being GN'R type songs.

So you would say Patience was a GN'R type song? Or November Rain? None of them sound exactly like Appetite For Destruction.


Some people have this "obsession" with putting bands in categories and boxes. And if they dare to do something outside of that, it's "not their style".


Hell, wasn't You're Crazy written as a slower song originally until it was made into the "GN'R style song" everybody heard on Appetite? So who's to say what's a band's style and what's not?
Maybe the "problem" is that since somebody who's not into a certain sound or certain types of songs, it's just easier to say the band shouldn't sound like that, than to admit that the "problem" is the person's limitation. Not the band.


For example, if a person thinks the keyboard is the worst invention ever, do you honestly think that person is gonna enjoy an album where the instrument is heavily used? So is the problem the artist using the keyboard, or the person's dislike for the instrument?

It's a matter of taste, but to use your own personal taste as a rule to say things like "this isn't the band's sound" is just kinda silly. It might not be the sound you prefer. But sticking to something safe and repeating yourself can get boring too.

What's wrong with creativity?




/jarmo

Keep in mind that in the 80s and early 90s before Nirvana,power balads were trendy. Ozzy, Skid Row, Bon Jovi, Poisson, etc. They all have songs following the patron of Patience or Don?t Cry. And there Axl went the extra mile with November Rain, epic balad. People were very used to that and it was very popular. Although those songs are not AFD type. In that context made sense if GN?R were playing balads as well. That doesn?t mean that the whole world like it. I knew people who were disapointed with that because they wanted GN?R to be more like Iron Maidden. I don?t see it that way. GN?R never was Iron Maidden. Although the music magazines and MTV were mixing all into Heavy Metal. I guess the industry just went that path at the time.

Having said that. I think Lies was more a transition album than an official follow up of AFD. The real follow up was UYI. The same way I think TSI was another transition album. Is Chinese Democracy the follow up of UYI? What is exactly CD?

[draguns]

In terms of "You're Crazy" and "Patience", they were still a GNR type of sound. They had that bluesy feel towards the song especially since it was slower. Princess Lea was right in that power ballard were huge in the late 80s/early 90s.  Every band or  music artist had a power ballad. I think "November Rain" even went beyond that and was such a hit because of the added elements without losing the GNR sound.

There isn't anything wrong with creativity. At the same time, you can't lose your focus as to what you are. You have to expand and grow, but keep with who you are. I think Axl tried too much to reinvent what GNR was and lost focus as to what the band was/is during the making of CD.  Guns isn't a Nine Inch Nails type of band. If I want to listen to that type of music, I will listen to Nine Inch Nails.

Right or wrong, we all have a brand and what we are about.  You expect a certain sound from the Rolling Stones, Bon Jovi, Foo Fighters, etc. Same thing individually. My brand  and who I am as a person is that I'm this disabled guy who has limitations that I work around or overcome. I hate when people ask me if I need help with something when I don't. I hate when people discriminate me because of my disability.  I am looking at doing side gigs as a writer and public speaker. I would love to get married and be known as a good son, brother, boyfriend, husband, father and friend. I want to be looked at beyond my disability. However, my bread and butter is really the story of a guy who has these limitations and works within limitations to succeed.

[jarmo]

In terms of "You're Crazy" and "Patience", they were still a GNR type of sound. They had that bluesy feel towards the song especially since it was slower. Princess Lea was right in that power ballard were huge in the late 80s/early 90s.  Every band or  music artist had a power ballad. I think "November Rain" even went beyond that and was such a hit because of the added elements without losing the GNR sound.

So you're saying the songs were GN'R's sound, but in reality a song like November Rain which features a lot of piano doesn't sound like any song on Appetite For Destruction. In other words, something was brought into the mix and it became part of the GN'R sound. Nothing weird in that, just like there's nothing weird with bringing in keyboards and making it part of your sound.

I've mentioned this in the past, but a band like U2 went from a certain sound, to something else to Achtung Baby and then to Pop. Achtung Baby doesn't sound like Pop and it doesn't sound like Boy.

So is the band's sound defined by what the most popular album is?

There's plenty of bands in the history of mankind that have changed. The Clash went from White Riot to Straight To Hell....

There isn't anything wrong with creativity. At the same time, you can't lose your focus as to what you are. You have to expand and grow, but keep with who you are. I think Axl tried too much to reinvent what GNR was and lost focus as to what the band was/is during the making of CD.  Guns isn't a Nine Inch Nails type of band. If I want to listen to that type of music, I will listen to Nine Inch Nails.

This is amusing. People like to call it some kind of Nine inch Nails sound. They weren't the first band to use keyboards or sound industrial.

But because they were popular with that sound, everybody who dared to do the same is labeled like that.

He kinda had to not only reinvent GN'R but rebuild it since most people who played on the old albums quit. Imagine GN'R trying to make a blues rock album. You'd be saying how wrong it is for them to try to sound like the old band!   

Right or wrong, we all have a brand and what we are about.  You expect a certain sound from the Rolling Stones, Bon Jovi, Foo Fighters, etc.

The Rolling Stones experimented with disco!

Bands change, some more, some less. Sometimes the change comes with a line up change, sometimes it's because a new trend (like disco) or sometimes it's a producer influence.

Not everybody can be like AC/DC!

Same thing individually. My brand  and who I am as a person is that I'm this disabled guy who has limitations that I work around or overcome. I hate when people ask me if I need help with something when I don't. I hate when people discriminate me because of my disability.  I am looking at doing side gigs as a writer and public speaker. I would love to get married and be known as a good son, brother, boyfriend, husband, father and friend. I want to be looked at beyond my disability. However, my bread and butter is really the story of a guy who has these limitations and works within limitations to succeed.

So you don't want to be treated as what people's perception of your label is. You want to be treated as an individual, not as part of a label and whatever people think when they think of that label.

Same thing with musicians. Maybe their limitation isn't physical, it might be just a matter of wanting to do things or maybe not being able to change. Not everybody can learn a new instrument, a new way of recording, using new equipment, writing a new kind of song and so on. But those who do, well why not try it...





/jarmo