Where do we go now

[sofine11]

I wonder if the label has indeed heard the next album and, like they did in with earlier versions of Chinese Democracy, told Axl that he could do better and have flat-out refused to put it out.

I re-listened to the '06 Eddie Trunk interview the other day, and Axl clearly states that they have the first two albums done, with another half-album worth of tracks that were still being worked on.  Something has to be holding up the release of the second album.

I just hope that no one on either side of the fence, meaning Axl & the label, throws their hands up and gives up on finding a way to put it out.

[pilferk]

I understand that GN?R has been on tour a lot this last couple of years. And they might need a break. But as it is only Axl is resting. Chris, Dizzy, Richard, BBF are all involved in side projects. For me it?s kind of a head scratcher.

Different people relax different ways.

I know people that, after work, basically go out and do more "work".....just for different people (or themselves), on different projects.  Not because they want to earn extra scratch, but because they actually enjoy it, especially without the pressures and deadlines associated with their "real" jobs.

I know other people that, after work, hit the local bar and kick back with their friends.

I know other people that, after work, go home and park themselves on their couches.

I know other people that, after work, go off to some "other" type of work..something completely different than their jobs, but that that they find relaxing (wood working, restoring cars/bikes, etc).

Not everybody takes breaks the same way....

[pilferk]

Their last show was 2 months ago not 2 days ago. And the other members are not little kids either. Sure you?ll be happy if Axl takes a 7 years break. But I?m afraid the big majority of the fans won?t.  Axl did it once so he can do it again.

7 years? No.

6 months? After touring for the better part of 2 years? Nah, don't see a problem with that.  Other artists, both rock and pop, do similar things.

[D-GenerationX]

Whoever would say something ridiculous like that can't really blame the band for not scrapping an entire album because tracks leaked and people chose to listen to them before the album's release!

Totally agree.

But, you could also make the argument that maybe if band didn't drag their ass for years at time, it could cut down on the leaks.  Typically, leaks get out there from frustrated fans who often figure that they might never get out any other way.  Or maybe as a way to prove something actually IS happening.  2003-05 was, in my view, the darkest time in GNR history.  And after all that wondering if anything would ever happen, the leaks were almost a life vest for many fans ready to jump ship for good.

I'll agree that those who choose to listen to leaks can't then complain they were already used to the songs by the time they came out, years later.  That's legit.  What's also legit is that someone in the band might one day stumble upon the logical conclusion that all the inactivity and waiting makes fans restless.  I get that leaks are frustrating, but ultimately, the band itself controls the reason that fans have to resort to listening to them.

[sofine11]

Whoever would say something ridiculous like that can't really blame the band for not scrapping an entire album because tracks leaked and people chose to listen to them before the album's release!

Totally agree.

But, you could also make the argument that maybe if band didn't drag their ass for years at time, it could cut down on the leaks.  Typically, leaks get out there from frustrated fans who often figure that they might never get out any other way.  Or maybe as a way to prove something actually IS happening.  2003-05 was, in my view, the darkest time in GNR history.  And after all that wondering if anything would ever happen, the leaks were almost a life vest for many fans ready to jump ship for good.

I'll agree that those who choose to listen to leaks can't then complain they were already used to the songs by the time they came out, years later.  That's legit.  What's also legit is that someone in the band might one day stumble upon the logical conclusion that all the inactivity and waiting makes fans restless.  I get that leaks are frustrating, but ultimately, the band itself controls the reason that fans have to resort to listening to them.

Great post.  You also have to consider that if there is, in fact, another album and a half worth of finished tracks out there (we have a laundry list of working titles) that are doing nothing but collecting dust at this point, eventually someone who had access to them is going to share what they have.

I'm not saying it's right, but how can you hold onto songs for years and years and expect all who were involved or had access to them to simply allow them to stay buried...whatever the reason may be for the lack of new music.  If it's within their control to put these songs out, how shocked can you really be when someone else who has them makes the decision for you?

[D-GenerationX]

I'm not saying it's right, but how can you hold onto songs for years and years and expect all who were involved or had access to them to simply allow them to stay buried...whatever the reason may be for the lack of new music.  If it's within their control to put these songs out, how shocked can you really be when someone else who has them makes the decision for you?

Yep.  And no one is saying that's "right" and I'm sure its frustrating for the band. 

And let's disprove another common talking point.  If we have stuck with Axl all this time, we ain't going anywhere.  Let's be honest here.  We are all going to buy the album when it comes out.  So even if we download and listen to a leak, its just to tide us over.

Even if you want to make the argument we are "ruining the surprise", we've obviously made our peace with it, no?

[sofine11]

I'm not saying it's right, but how can you hold onto songs for years and years and expect all who were involved or had access to them to simply allow them to stay buried...whatever the reason may be for the lack of new music.  If it's within their control to put these songs out, how shocked can you really be when someone else who has them makes the decision for you?

Yep.  And no one is saying that's "right" and I'm sure its frustrating for the band. 

And let's disprove another common talking point.  If we have stuck with Axl all this time, we ain't going anywhere.  Let's be honest here.  We are all going to buy the album when it comes out.  So even if we download and listen to a leak, its just to tide us over.

Even if you want to make the argument we are "ruining the surprise", we've obviously made our peace with it, no?

Exactly.  I have to stress that I'm not saying it's right.  I'm just saying that it's utterly naive to think that with all the people that were involved in recording process of the Chinese Democracy album(s) that all of the songs will stay in Axl's proverbial "vault" until he decides that it's time for us to hear them.

It happens to every big band, The Stones, Aerosmith, Metallica...Demos leak eventually for both released and unreleased tracks.  And when you consider all the unreleased stuff Axl allegedly has, he is certainly not only not exempt from it, it actually increases the chance of leaks twice-fold for obvious reasons.

[D-GenerationX]

I don't consider downloading a leak to be the same as say, torrenting a TV show.

If you torrent a TV show, its to avoid paying for it.  Let's cut the shit.  You are absolutely ripping someone off.

But a leak is a placeholder, not an outright substitution of the actual product.

[sofine11]

You also have to consider that anyone who would download a leaked GNR track in 2013 must be a hardcore fan, as at this point, everyone surely must know that it's the Axl Rose show and that past members are long gone.  Point is, if you're downloading a GNR leak in 2013, you're buying the album.  What harm is done?

[D-GenerationX]

You also have to consider that anyone who would download a leaked GNR track in 2013 must be a hardcore fan, as at this point, everyone surely must know that it's the Axl Rose show and that past members are long gone.  Point is, if you're downloading a GNR leak in 2013, you're buying the album.  What harm is done?

Absolutely.

I have also always been a bootleg concert collector.  I never understood the harm done.  If anything, its a huge compliment, no?  I'm a big enough fan to scour the internet for this stuff, am I not?

And where am I taking money out of the band's pocket?  Believe me, I'd rather they just put out a soundboard version of every show.  But they don't (no band does) so its off to track them down myself.

But if I am tracking down bootleg concerts, some of average (at best) quality...have I not already purchased all the official stuff?

[LongGoneDay]

GN'R has always been a band surrounded by uncertainty. The UYI tour was plagued with "no-shows", riots, hiring and firing/quitting. Honestly, it seems much more stable today than it did 20 years ago.

Even the original lineup copped shit when they released Lies because it wasn't a "true" album. Then the UYI lineup copped shit when they released TSI because it was a covers record. This lineup copped shit when CD was released too. As much as GN'R has always been a very "big name" band, they have constantly been given-up-on for as long as I can remember but somehow still maintain a huge fan base and a bunch of die hards like a lot of us here.

The fact that a band who has been around for as long as Guns has have only released 4 "true" records but still have very strong ticket sales and a massive amount of interest from the average fan is just incredible.

GN'R is GN'R and have always been GN'R. Honestly, aside from a few faces, not a lot has changed in the 20 something years I have been a fan and I for one am ok with that.

Actually, the one change that I have noticed, which has been great for me, is the frequency of Australian tours. Before 2007, Guns had only been here twice (1988 and 1993). Since 2007, GN'R have toured here on 3 separate occasions in the past 6 years, after a 14 year absence..... And I think they will be back again within the next 2 years... and in support of a new album.



 

Okay, this isn't an attack on you by any means. It's a popular saying here for sure, but I truly don't understand what I consider to be a throw away line that's been adopted here.
The ol' "GN'R is GN'R and has always been GN'R". What the hell does that even mean? haha

More stable than 1993? Sure, that was arguably the least stable period of early Guns, because they were splintered and on the verge of disbanding.
Even still they managed to release an album and match the production of all lineups to follow combined as far as official releases go.
The 6 years prior may not be what you would consider stable, but it was very productive. Maybe you're not talking about that period.

They managed to become one of, if not the biggest bands in the world.
Something they couldn't be mistaken for today.

There has always technically been a band with the name Guns N' Roses since it's inception, so technically the saying is not wrong, but virtually nothing about today's incarnation resembles that of the band inducted into the HOF. I mean, it's about as stark a contrast as you could hope to find. Today's lineup doesn't exactly resemble the Bucket/Finck era either. This isn't a negative, it's just reality.

It's been more than a "few" new faces over the years. Maybe not a whole lot has changed besides the personnel since '93, but is that really a good thing?
I love live music as much as the next guy, but myself I'll take the production of '87-'93 over the "stability", and I use that term very loosely, of later incarnations.

[sofine11]

You also have to consider that anyone who would download a leaked GNR track in 2013 must be a hardcore fan, as at this point, everyone surely must know that it's the Axl Rose show and that past members are long gone.  Point is, if you're downloading a GNR leak in 2013, you're buying the album.  What harm is done?

Absolutely.

I have also always been a bootleg concert collector.  I never understood the harm done.  If anything, its a huge compliment, no?  I'm a big enough fan to scour the internet for this stuff, am I not?

And where am I taking money out of the band's pocket?  Believe me, I'd rather they just put out a soundboard version of every show.  But they don't (no band does) so its off to track them down myself.

But if I am tracking down bootleg concerts, some of average (at best) quality...have I not already purchased all the official stuff?

And it's not like these songs were recorded last year and set to come out in November.  These are songs that were recorded '98-07 with still no release in sight.  To resist that temptation, you'd have to be of the mindset that "Oh, Axl will get around to releasing it one of these years. I'll abstain."  Who thinks that way?

[jarmo]

Please don't try to justify stealing for the band. Thank you.  

At the end of the day, it's not your work of art, it's not your choice when to release it for the public.

The whole idea that leaks are only good is just naive. Albums get judged based on whatever song(s) come(s) out first. The first single that the artist decided on to be the first song for the public to hear, might be the fifth song people hear from the album. That might be too late, people already made up their minds.

Everything you work on to set up an album's release is wasted once some other people start taking it upon themselves to start releasing your music (for free).


Bootleg recordings of concerts is a different matter. Sometimes they can cannibalize sales of a live album or concert film. But often there's nothing else released from the show you attended.

And it's not like these songs were recorded last year and set to come out in November.  These are songs that were recorded '98-07 with still no release in sight.  To resist that temptation, you'd have to be of the mindset that "Oh, Axl will get around to releasing it one of these years. I'll abstain."  Who thinks that way?

I do.





/jarmo

[sofine11]

And it's not like these songs were recorded last year and set to come out in November.  These are songs that were recorded '98-07 with still no release in sight.  To resist that temptation, you'd have to be of the mindset that "Oh, Axl will get around to releasing it one of these years. I'll abstain."  Who thinks that way?

I do.

/jarmo

Eh, no offense honestly intended, but if you are saying that you did not give Better, IRS, Catcher & TWAT a listen in 2006 when they leaked, I'm going to go ahead and say that I do not believe you...at all.

I'm not saying that those who "steal" from the band are justified.  Not in the least.  What I am saying is that it is perfectly understandable for fans to be curious about music they've been waiting years to hear any way it's made available, leak or official. That's all...

[AXLGNR123]

They need to release new music, that's all.

Continuing to tour behind music the new band had FUCK ALL to do with doesn't help anyone. Sure, the casual fans enjoys it, but eventually the band wont. Especially guys like Ron and DJ who seemingly came into this band in hopes of making music for the fans of Guns N' Roses. Sure, there's more money in touring than there is in record sales, but attendance isn't as good as it once was, and the ticket's are going on sale for over 100, which doesn't help either.

A new album with proper promotion could put new life into GN'R. Especially if the music is good, which it most likely will be. I'm as big as a fan of Axl you will find, and I would love for him to put out music for us. The longer they tour as a nostalgia act, the more and more they fall into obscurity.

[jarmo]

Eh, no offense honestly intended, but if you are saying that you did not give Better, IRS, Catcher & TWAT a listen in 2006 when they leaked, I'm going to go ahead and say that I do not believe you...at all.

You said "Who thinks that way?".
You didn't ask "Did you think that way in 2006?".

The new Mark Lanegan album leaked online a week or two before release. I waited until it was released. Several new Pearl Jam tracks have leaked, but I've just listened to the two singles from the album....

I remember the excitement of getting a new album you've waited for, even in this day, you can feel that. It's your choice....

I'm not saying that those who "steal" from the band are justified.  Not in the least.  What I am saying is that it is perfectly understandable for fans to be curious about music they've been waiting years to hear any way it's made available, leak or official. That's all...

It's a Catch 22.

Some fans want to know everything. They know that there are tracks that weren't released yet. So they want to hear them. Even if it means pissing on the band's wishes.
If those fans didn't know the songs existed, they complain that they don't even know if there's anything done for the next record....



/jarmo

[sofine11]

Eh, no offense honestly intended, but if you are saying that you did not give Better, IRS, Catcher & TWAT a listen in 2006 when they leaked, I'm going to go ahead and say that I do not believe you...at all.

You said "Who thinks that way?".
You didn't ask "Did you think that way in 2006?".

The new Mark Lanegan album leaked online a week or two before release. I waited until it was released. Several new Pearl Jam tracks have leaked, but I've just listened to the two singles from the album....

I remember the excitement of getting a new album you've waited for, even in this day, you can feel that. It's your choice....

I'm not saying that those who "steal" from the band are justified.  Not in the least.  What I am saying is that it is perfectly understandable for fans to be curious about music they've been waiting years to hear any way it's made available, leak or official. That's all...

It's a Catch 22.

Some fans want to know everything. They know that there are tracks that weren't released yet. So they want to hear them. Even if it means pissing on the band's wishes.
If those fans didn't know the songs existed, they complain that they don't even know if there's anything done for the next record....



/jarmo

You're not wrong at all.  In fact, if there was a release date set six months out in 2014, and a song leaked today, I'd say "Nah, fuck it.  I'd rather here it mastered and ready to go."  Because that's the truth.  I want to hear these songs on an album the way the band intended them to be heard.

It's the fact that there's zero talk about when the next GNR album may come out that makes pressing the "Download" button that much easier, as well as making the decision to leak a track easier for those who have them.  Heck, in 2006 Axl said the album was going to be out that year BEFORE the leaks started and everyone still went nuts for them. IRS even made the effing charts! The situation in 2013 is even more dire when it comes to hopes of hearing new music, as we don't even know for sure that Axl wants to put out an album. I believe his last official comments on another album was "Dont know and don't care."

Again, I don't want to make it seem like I'm justifying stealing from the band.  I'm just pointing out the reality of where we're at in terms of hearing new music on an "official" level.

[D-GenerationX]

The whole idea that leaks are only good is just naive. Albums get judged based on whatever song(s) come(s) out first. The first single that the artist decided on to be the first song for the public to hear, might be the fifth song people hear from the album. That might be too late, people already made up their minds.

OK, so let's say I waited for the band to do all that.  I'd have gotten no proper single, no video, and never heard one of the new songs on the radio, ever.

I do get your overall point, but in terms of this particular band, it doesn't hold water.  They don't do any of that shit you just described. 

Everything you work on to set up an album's release is wasted once some other people start taking it upon themselves to start releasing your music (for free).

Well, as has been said a few times now, the best defense against that is for the band to get off their ass and do it themselves.  Do they have to?  No, of course not.  Its their band.

But then, what happens...happens.  You don't get to have it both ways.  If you did the best you could to get things out in a timely manner and still had to put up with leaks, fine, we'll hear you out how that's unfair and sucks.  You spend three and a half years not saying a word to us?  Well, you get what you get.  And if what happened in 2006 didn't teach you anything, no one is going to have any sympathy for you in 2014 if it happens again.

[jarmo]

I do get your overall point, but in terms of this particular band, it doesn't hold water.  They don't do any of that shit you just described.

With Chinese Democracy, the first song that was officially put out was Shackler's Revenge in Rock Band 2, then there was If The World in that movie, then you got the title track on the radio. Then the album.
See, there was a plan.

You spend three and a half years not saying a word to us?  Well, you get what you get.  And if what happened in 2006 didn't teach you anything, no one is going to have any sympathy for you in 2014 if it happens again.

What gives you the right to steal somebody else's work? Because you're frustrated?

If i can't have a Ferrari today, it's ok for me to steal one? Because I wanted one for years?

Is that a viable defense?



This is the problem with some fans. Trying to justify stealing from the band because they're upset that things don't go their way. None of them paid a single cent for the album they're "waiting" for. Nobody invested in it. They chose to invest time and energy on posting about how angry/upset/sad/disappointed they are, but that still doesn't give them any right to do what they do.

If somebody ever took something of yours from you without your consent, how would you feel and would you be so understanding if their defense was "but I wanted this for years!"? Or "it's a compliment, it only means I'm interested in your work!"....



As I've said in the past, there's a difference in being interested in hearing new music and being selfish enough to fuck things up for the band because you think you have some kind of right to hear music.

Music has lost so much value. It's pretty much worthless these days. People want it for free whenever they see fit. It's their "right".

If it was some other kind of creative product, things might be different. For example, if you're a fan of a painter, does it mean you have the right to see every sketch (s)he ever made? You're a fan of Scorsese? It means you have the right to see every scene he ever filmed? "I know this movie is three hours long, but there must be more scenes that they filmed! I waited for so long, I got the right to see them!"... Or see the movie before he considers it done? That would be ridiculous! 



Here's a tip, try letting go of that notion that just because you liked the previous album(s) by a band or an artist, that you're "owed" more music.




/jarmo

[sofine11]

See, but I don't think it's that personal with 99% of the people who'd download a song that leaks.  I don't think anyone's out to hurt the band, or is overcome with feelings of entitlement when they listen to a leak.  It's literally as simple as "Oh, a Guns N' Roses song.  I love Guns N' Roses!" ::CLICK::

Now, the people who somehow obtain these songs, and post them on a download sight and send it out into the internet: Well, they're a different story. That is wrong.  It's a "Blame Philip Morris, don't blame the smokers." kind of thing...