2013 Baseball Season/Off-Season Discussion

[tim_m]

That you have to attribute to how pitchers are used these days. They just don't pitch as deep into the game as they used to thus the less wins. That doesn't mean career win total won't still be important to voters. If anything i would think it would put more importance on wins. I mean considering pitchers are getting less and less starts and going less deeper into the game. You would think as time goes on a pitcher with say 250 for a career would be more impressive given the declining win totals.

[Falcon]

That you have to attribute to how pitchers are used these days. They just don't pitch as deep into the game as they used to thus the less wins. That doesn't mean career win total won't still be important to voters. If anything i would think it would put more importance on wins. I mean considering pitchers are getting less and less starts and going less deeper into the game. You would think as time goes on a pitcher with say 250 for a career would be more impressive given the declining win totals.

Again, you're putting too much emphasis on "pitcher wins" and their statistical value.

Look at Bert Blyleven, a far more dominating pitcher than Pettitte - not even close.

It took 14 years for Bert to get in - and he never cheated.

Not trying to be a jackass here Tim, I understand your affection for Andy - hell, I think Willie McGee hung the moon!

I just don't think his stats and admitted cheating warrant him any serious HOF consideration and I firmly believe voters will agree.

[pilferk]

I'm with Falcon on this one.

IF Andy were PED free, he'd be a borderline case who would probably get in on one of his last tries or via the Veterans committee.  Basically, he'd have a slightly better chance than Mike Mussina does.

But the PED use is, IMHO, going to keep him out. It's the deciding factor  in a borderline consideration.  That's based on what we've seen right now, what his expected career longevity is at this point (2 to 3 years, maybe), and what the voting population is going to look like through his eligibility years.  Honestly, I don't think it changes enough to get him in.

If he could play 5 to 7 more years....I might lean Tims way.  But he doesn't have enough career left to either change the voters mind or outlast the current voting population who are strongly considering PED use (or suspected use).

[GeorgeSteele]

I lean slightly no on Pettitte getting in the HOF, but it's a tough call.  True, the HGH admission hurts him a lot, but let's also remember that he pitched the bulk of his career during the height of the steroid era and still managed to put together excellent overall career stats. 

Also, I'm not so sure that the sabremetric community is really down on Pettitte.  I know they don't put much stock in wins, but they do heavily value "ERA+" which is ERA adjusted for DH, park size, league average (and a bunch of other things I'm not sure about). Pettitte's is 117, which is better than Steve Carlton's 115.  Thing is, by the time the sabremetric guys who don't care about steroids make up the bulk of the HOF voters (if that ever happens, doubt it), Pettitte might be off the ballot by then. 

The bottom line for me, though, is that he doesn't belong in the same sentence as the truly dominant guys of the 1990s/2000s --- Clemens, Pedro, Maddux and Randy Johnson.   After those guys, there's a bunch of guys in the next tier of very good pitchers of that generation (Tom Glavine, Mike Mussina, Curt Schilling, Kevin Brown, David Cone) that Pettitte falls into.  Huge dropoff from that first tier to the next and, IMO, the HOF should be reserved for that elite tier.

[tim_m]

I agree he's definitely not a slam dunk, the PED thing hurts him. There are numbers that help him though like his postseason stats. I'm not saying i think he'll get in first ballot or even by ballot possibly veterans committee. Like the article i posted pointed out he thinks he gets in but could take 10-15 years once the anti-ped voters are gone.

[tim_m]

Another former Major Leaguer's son drafted by a former team. Roger Clemens son was drafted by the Astros but he's not signing and will attend UT.

[faldor]

Another former Major Leaguer's son drafted by a former team. Roger Clemens son was drafted by the Astros but he's not signing and will attend UT.

Also Lee Mazilli's son, LJ was drafted by the Mets.  He played his college career at UConn and led them on a surprising run into the college World Series this season.

[tim_m]

Another former Major Leaguer's son drafted by a former team. Roger Clemens son was drafted by the Astros but he's not signing and will attend UT.

Also Lee Mazilli's son, LJ was drafted by the Mets.  He played his college career at UConn and led them on a surprising run into the college World Series this season.

Interesting i hadn't heard about that one. Any idea if he will sign?

[Falcon]

"MLB using testimony from minor leaguers to condemn players with Biogenesis ties"

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/mlb-using-testimony-from-minor-leaguers-to-condemn-players-with-biogenesis-ties-224757915.html

[tim_m]

"MLB using testimony from minor leaguers to condemn players with Biogenesis ties"

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/mlb-using-testimony-from-minor-leaguers-to-condemn-players-with-biogenesis-ties-224757915.html

Unless these minor leaguers saw proof of players using i don't see how this helps. Its still he said she said that'll be very hard for MLB to make stick.

[faldor]

Another former Major Leaguer's son drafted by a former team. Roger Clemens son was drafted by the Astros but he's not signing and will attend UT.

Also Lee Mazilli's son, LJ was drafted by the Mets.  He played his college career at UConn and led them on a surprising run into the college World Series this season.

Interesting i hadn't heard about that one. Any idea if he will sign?

Yeah, he was drafted in the 9th round by the Twins last year but returned to UConn for his senior season and was taken in the 4th round this year.  So a good move on his part.

http://www.courant.com/sports/baseball/hc-mlb-amateur-draft-0608-20130607,0,3293959.story

Mazzilli, from Greenwich, was drafted by the Twins in the ninth round last year, but returned to UConn for his senior season. He hit .364 with six homers and 49 RBI while showing improvement in his defense at second base. He worked with Bobby Valentine in the offseason and he helped the Huskies make the NCAA Tournament with a home run against Notre Dame in the Big East final. As a result, he moved up in the draft, from pick No. 280 to No. 116, and the slot value more than tripled to $442,000.

"He really made the most of his last year," UConn coach Jim Penders said. "He rededicated himself to defense, and what I'll remember most is that he really learned how to become a leader. He's his own man, he's established that, and he should be proud."

Paul DePodesta, the Mets VP for player development and amateur scouting, said the organization discussed Mazzilli last year.

"He's a guy who has been on our radar for a long time," DePodesta said. "He has continued to improve. We've been following him for three years now."

Mazzilli was the named the Collegiate Baseball Writers District II player of the year on Friday. Coming from college, Mazzilli is likely to be assigned to the Mets' NY-Penn League affiliate in Brooklyn, where his father was born. The Brooklyn Cyclones come to Norwich for three games beginning July 13.

"The pressure is going to be there," Lee Mazzilli said. "You can't hide from it, you have to deal with it and the great ones do. ? LJ showed a number of times in his college career he could rise to the occasion."

[tim_m]

Another former Major Leaguer's son drafted by a former team. Roger Clemens son was drafted by the Astros but he's not signing and will attend UT.

Also Lee Mazilli's son, LJ was drafted by the Mets.  He played his college career at UConn and led them on a surprising run into the college World Series this season.

Interesting i hadn't heard about that one. Any idea if he will sign?

Yeah, he was drafted in the 9th round by the Twins last year but returned to UConn for his senior season and was taken in the 4th round this year.  So a good move on his part.

http://www.courant.com/sports/baseball/hc-mlb-amateur-draft-0608-20130607,0,3293959.story

Mazzilli, from Greenwich, was drafted by the Twins in the ninth round last year, but returned to UConn for his senior season. He hit .364 with six homers and 49 RBI while showing improvement in his defense at second base. He worked with Bobby Valentine in the offseason and he helped the Huskies make the NCAA Tournament with a home run against Notre Dame in the Big East final. As a result, he moved up in the draft, from pick No. 280 to No. 116, and the slot value more than tripled to $442,000.

"He really made the most of his last year," UConn coach Jim Penders said. "He rededicated himself to defense, and what I'll remember most is that he really learned how to become a leader. He's his own man, he's established that, and he should be proud."

Paul DePodesta, the Mets VP for player development and amateur scouting, said the organization discussed Mazzilli last year.

"He's a guy who has been on our radar for a long time," DePodesta said. "He has continued to improve. We've been following him for three years now."

Mazzilli was the named the Collegiate Baseball Writers District II player of the year on Friday. Coming from college, Mazzilli is likely to be assigned to the Mets' NY-Penn League affiliate in Brooklyn, where his father was born. The Brooklyn Cyclones come to Norwich for three games beginning July 13.

"The pressure is going to be there," Lee Mazzilli said. "You can't hide from it, you have to deal with it and the great ones do. ? LJ showed a number of times in his college career he could rise to the occasion."

Very cool for the Mazilli family. I liked his father. He must be so proud. Good luck to him.

[Falcon]

Very cool for the Mazilli family. I liked his father. He must be so proud. Good luck to him.

Yep, same here - Lee was a cool cat.

Seeing some our favorite players kids get drafted is surreal - we're getting..a...um....mature.

[tim_m]

Very cool for the Mazilli family. I liked his father. He must be so proud. Good luck to him.

Yep, same here - Lee was a cool cat. 

Seeing some our favorite players kids get drafted is surreal - we're getting..a...um....mature.

I mostly remember him from his days as a coach on the Yankees. I'm sure i saw him play though. I remember being a baseball fan way back when Don Mattingly entered the league. He was absolutely my favorite player growing up. I actually got to meet him in 89. Very nice guy. One of the real good guys baseball's had and one of the best players who played the game right. Such a shame the back injury robbed him of his hitting. He was on the fast track to being an all time great and to Cooperstown. I really hope one day he makes it in as a manager. He's the kind of guy that should be in the HOF. A guy that's everything right about baseball.  Heh yep, i'm on the downside of 30 now.

[faldor]

Speaking of Mattingly.  His Dodgers got into quite the brawl with the D'backs last night.  And wouldn't you know it, Zack Greinke was once again a key figure.

Here's my take on the events.  First Kennedy nails Puig in the shoulder/nose on an 0-2 pitch.  Now I don't think that was intentional, at least I hope not.  But anytime a guy gets hit up around or in the face, that's a seriously scary situation.  So Greinke retaliates and hits Montero in the back the next inning.  He probably should have been ejected, but he wasn't.  Both benches were warned and sure enough he comes up to bat the next inning and gets beaned up around the head area.  Now again, I HOPE Kennedy didn't mean to throw at his head but he obviously meant to hit him.  I'm sure he'll get suspended, and deservedly so.  The brawl itself was pretty good as far as baseball brawls go.  It was weird seeing Don Baylor, Kirk Gibson, Don Mattingly, and Matt Williams going at it.  It felt like 1987 all over again.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20130612&content_id=50380800&vkey=news_mlb&c_id=mlb

LOS ANGELES -- Tuesday night's game between the Dodgers and D-backs deteriorated into a beanbrawl in the sixth and seventh innings, as Ian Kennedy hit Yasiel Puig in the nose with a fastball, Zack Greinke retaliated by hitting Miguel Montero in the back with a pitch and Kennedy further retaliated by hitting Greinke in the shoulder with a pitch.

Both benches emptied when Greinke hit Montero, but no punches were thrown. When Greinke was hit by Kennedy's first pitch to him in the bottom of the seventh, however, the Dodgers erupted.

"If you're going to hit one of our guys, we're going to hit one of yours," said rookie catcher Tim Federowicz, whose three-run double in the eighth inning rallied the Dodgers to a 5-3 victory. "That's just the way the game is. But [Greinke getting hit near the head], that's where it gets a little out of hand. You can't do that. We'll see what happens the rest of the time we play these guys. It's going to be heated."

No more heated than Tuesday night. Los Angeles manager Don Mattingly and Arizona skipper Kirk Gibson got physically tangled, and Dodgers coach Mark McGwire went jaw to jaw with Gibson and D-backs coach Matt Williams.

But the real action occurred near the photo well next to the Arizona dugout, where Dodgers reliever Ronald Belisario went after several players, and J.P. Howell smashed Arizona coach Turner Ward into the padded railing. Puig re-ignited the melee and had to be pulled from the scrum.

"I have no personal beef with any of those guys," Howell said. "It's just part of the gig."

Because of the warning issued after Greinke hit Montero, Kennedy and Gibson were ejected automatically because both benches had been warned. McGwire, Ward, Puig and Belisario were also ejected. When the Dodgers came out for the top of the eighth inning, Puig was replaced in right field by Alex Castellanos.

"I wanted to throw inside just kind of to send a message, but not to hit the guy and it just kind of got away from me a little bit," Kennedy said. "I was really just trying to go inside because I didn't think it was right what he did to Miggy."

Greinke is pitching with a metal plate in his collarbone, which was broken when he was charged by San Diego's Carlos Quentin after hitting him with a pitch April 11.

Schumaker was the most eloquent in explaining why the Dodgers were so fired up.

"I've never seen a pitcher throw at two different guys' heads before," he said. "It's dangerous. It's different if it's a beanball war. I've been a part of those before. I get it. It's part of the game. I like it. It gets guys going. It gets the fans fired up. I get all that. I love it. But when you start throwing at guys' heads, it's a different story."

[tim_m]

I heard about that. Heard it got pretty nasty. I didn't see video though. I like Ian Kennedy but the second hit batter that he hit in the head looked pretty intentional to me. He should be suspended enough to miss at least two starts for that imo. There's no place in the game for that shit.

[Falcon]

More Biogenesis ducks lining up for MLB:

Judge won't decline lawsuit

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/9376490/judge-declines-dismiss-mlb-drug-lawsuit

[tim_m]

More Biogenesis ducks lining up for MLB:

Judge won't decline lawsuit

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/9376490/judge-declines-dismiss-mlb-drug-lawsuit

Yep, very good bulllying tactic for MLB. They are basically gonna force these guys to turn over every last bit of information they have or force them to go through a very costly legal process.

[tim_m]

Yankees have signed Paul O'Nell's Nephew Michael for 500k. Very cool for the O'Neill family. Paulie must be so proud.

[tim_m]

More  good news for the Yankees. Derek Jeter has been cleared to resume baseball activities including running.