2013 Baseball Season/Off-Season Discussion

[faldor]

As an aside for Tim and pilf, Seattle just demoted Jesus Montero..

I'm not shocked.  Not one person in that deal, so far, has really contributed much at the MLB level (Noesi's domination of the Yanks last series not withstanding).  Starting to look like a double bust..but we'll see what Pineada brings to the table in about a month.

Yeah the verdict is still out on Pinaeda. We gotta wait until he's healthy and pitches and MLB level before saying its a complete bust.

Montero is still pretty young too and he had a decent year last year.  Can't completely close the book on him either I don't think. 

[tim_m]

As an aside for Tim and pilf, Seattle just demoted Jesus Montero..

I'm not shocked.  Not one person in that deal, so far, has really contributed much at the MLB level (Noesi's domination of the Yanks last series not withstanding).  Starting to look like a double bust..but we'll see what Pineada brings to the table in about a month.

Yeah the verdict is still out on Pinaeda. We gotta wait until he's healthy and pitches and MLB level before saying its a complete bust.

Montero is still pretty young too and he had a decent year last year.  Can't completely close the book on him either I don't think. 

Very true, also some good news for the Yankees. Teixeira is about to start his rehab assignment.

[tim_m]

Granderson just comes back and goes right back out after getting hit on the hand and fractures it. Does this guy have a hit me here sign or something? Shit.

[GeorgeSteele]

Amazing, but this year's Met team may be the worst since interleague play started and it's the first to ever pull off a sweep of the Yanks.  Then again, this may be the worst Yankee team in the past 15 years.  In any event, that was NICE!

[faldor]

Amazing, but this year's Met team may be the worst since interleague play started and it's the first to ever pull off a sweep of the Yanks.  Then again, this may be the worst Yankee team in the past 15 years.  In any event, that was NICE!

That was surprising, especially with as well as the Yankees have played up until that series.  I guess you could argue that the replacements were bound to come back to earth eventually, and maybe that was a sign of things to come.  Of course, the Yanks get Texeira and Youkilis back today, so those guys won't be relied so heavily upon.  Although it might take some time for them to knock some of the rust off themselves.  Conversely, maybe the Mets can build off of that series sweep.  They've been pretty disappointing this year.  It's no or never.

Both the Red Sox and Yankees have exceeded peoples expectations so far this year and they sit atop the standings in the AL East as they begin a 3 game series at The Stadium.

[tim_m]

Even the best teams go through struggles like this during the course of a long season. It was bound to happen eventually. You gotta give the Mets credit though. They pitched a helluva series.

[GeorgeSteele]

Mets capitalize on the momentum of sweeping the Yankees by getting swept by the fucking Miami Marlins.  Horrendous. 

[faldor]

Mets capitalize on the momentum of sweeping the Yankees by getting swept by the fucking Miami Marlins.  Horrendous. 

So much for building off that momentum.  I should've known better than to suggest that.

[pilferk]

Even the best teams go through struggles like this during the course of a long season. It was bound to happen eventually. You gotta give the Mets credit though. They pitched a helluva series.

Yanks problem, in general, is their offense and Phil Hughes.

Phelps had one bad start...but every pitcher throws a clunker now and then.

Hughes gives up long ball after long ball. after long ball, after....well, you get the pitcher...I mean, picture.

And the offense has started to play to the backs of their baseball cards.  Wells is not a .320 hitter who is going to put up monster OPS numbers.  Overbay is not a .290 hitter (though he's now sitting on the pine while Tex gets his spring training in) with power, either.  Adams is not the next incarnation of Mike Trout (or Evan Longoria), who is going to make everyone forget A-rod for the next 5 years of his awful contract. 

They managed to outperform their baseball cards pretty heroically over the first 50 games.  Now, I suspect, we'll see some (maybe more than some) regression.  If Tex and Youk manage to quickly get comfortable....they should be fine.  If Tex decides to have his typically slow April in....JUNE....and if Youk can't turn on a ball like he was before he tweaked his back...it's going to be a long 6 weeks or so.

[Falcon]

Looks like shit's gonna finally hit the fan with Biogenesis

MLB seeks to suspend A-Rod, Braun

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/9301536/major-league-baseball-suspend-20-players-including-alex-rodriguez-ryan-braun-part-miami-investigation

[tim_m]

Looks like shit's gonna finally hit the fan with Biogenesis

MLB seeks to suspend A-Rod, Braun

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/9301536/major-league-baseball-suspend-20-players-including-alex-rodriguez-ryan-braun-part-miami-investigation

Not just them, there's apparently another 20 players they are looking to suspend. I'm trying to find the names but no luck. Have you found them in any article?

[pilferk]

From the article


The players who might ultimately face discipline from MLB include: Rodriguez, Braun, Cabrera, Colon, Grandal, Nelson Cruz, Francisco Cervelli, Jesus Montero, Jhonny Peralta, Cesar Puello, Fernando Martinez, Everth Cabrera, Fautino de los Santos, Jordan Norberto and a number of players who are either identified by code names or whose names appear in other documents not obtained by "Outside the Lines." All are on major league rosters except for Puello, a top outfield prospect for the New York Mets who is playing in Class AA Binghamton.


It will be interesting to see how this plays out.  Especially the appeal process.  If Braun can beat his suspension based on tenuous chain of custody claims....these players, are certainly going to have a lot more ammunition in this case.  MLB might levy suspensions...and see them all reduced or thrown out.

[Falcon]

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.  Especially the appeal process.  If Braun can beat his suspension based on tenuous chain of custody claims....these players, are certainly going to have a lot more ammunition in this case.  MLB might levy suspensions...and see them all reduced or thrown out.

I don't think there's any way MLB will go into this not fully prepared from all possible angles, especially when it comes to Braun.

He embarrassed them once, I suspect it won't happen again.

High drama for sure.

[tim_m]

From the article


The players who might ultimately face discipline from MLB include: Rodriguez, Braun, Cabrera, Colon, Grandal, Nelson Cruz, Francisco Cervelli, Jesus Montero, Jhonny Peralta, Cesar Puello, Fernando Martinez, Everth Cabrera, Fautino de los Santos, Jordan Norberto and a number of players who are either identified by code names or whose names appear in other documents not obtained by "Outside the Lines." All are on major league rosters except for Puello, a top outfield prospect for the New York Mets who is playing in Class AA Binghamton.


It will be interesting to see how this plays out.  Especially the appeal process.  If Braun can beat his suspension based on tenuous chain of custody claims....these players, are certainly going to have a lot more ammunition in this case.  MLB might levy suspensions...and see them all reduced or thrown out.

Ahh, i skimmed the article i guess i missed the names.

[tim_m]

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.  Especially the appeal process.  If Braun can beat his suspension based on tenuous chain of custody claims....these players, are certainly going to have a lot more ammunition in this case.  MLB might levy suspensions...and see them all reduced or thrown out.

I don't think there's any way MLB will go into this not fully prepared from all possible angles, especially when it comes to Braun.

He embarrassed them once, I suspect it won't happen again.

High drama for sure.

Agreed, they are gonna do everything they can to make the suspensions stick. A lot of people think Braun should be banned permanently. Its apparently his third time. I thought it was only his second though.

[pilferk]

I don't think there's any way MLB will go into this not fully prepared from all possible angles, especially when it comes to Braun.

He embarrassed them once, I suspect it won't happen again.

High drama for sure.

Here's the problem, though:

MLB, organizationally, has been an arrogant, self-obsessed, and, in their eyes, infaillable front office for the better part of the last 5 years.  And they have been left with egg on their faces, looking like morons, over and over and over and over again.  From officiating to drug testing.

So I have no confidence in their ability to show restraint where, possibly, neccessary.

You point out, maybe without knowing it, the problem here.  For MLB, and it's leadership, this isn't, at it's heart, about cleaning up the sport.  It's about a vendetta against a few players it feels have wronged them, or embarrassed them.  And their actions, unfortunately, seem less objective and more about vengeance.

Here is what MLB reportedly has:

They have hand written paper records with certain players names (or code names) on them.  Evidence the government and DEA have seen...and said does not constitute proof enough to pursue investigations against either Bosh or the players.

They have testimony by a guy who has a vested interest in saying EXACTLY what MLB wants him to say.  They are dropping a very expensive (and, according to legal analysts, pretty much baseless) lawsuit against Bosh.  They have agreed to "help" him if his testimony raises the eyebrows of the any law enforcement agency.  That sure looks could be looked at as coercian.

I'm not saying the players aren't guilty.  I'm not saying that Bosh is lying.  But...from what we've seen and has been reported...there is a pretty solid basis for player appeals.  Certainly more than anyone thought Braun had with his tenuous chain of custody claims (and, keep in mind, that previous process will not be allowed to be talked about in the appeal process).

For Braun, MLB had a positive test and Braun had tenuous chain of custody claims.

For these, MLB has scribbled notes and the testimony of a suspected drug dealer with a vested interest in saying exactly what MLB wants him to and the players have a pretty solid case on credibility and, certainly, lack of compelling evidence.

If you read the written policy, this is going to be a tough sell to the arbitrator.  There is no failed test.  There is no documented possession.  There is no money trail.  There is no audio, video, or corroborating witness testimony (other than Bosh's).  Trying to get 50 games, never mind 100, is going to be interesting.

The other question is this: Colon and Melky Cabrera have served a suspension, already.  How do you levy another when it might be for the same offense, given the timing of their failed tests and the reported documentation?

I maintain this is going to be a very interesting process.  I don't think this is a slam dunk for MLB by any stretch.  They don't have a smoking gun, here.

[pilferk]

Agreed, they are gonna do everything they can to make the suspensions stick. A lot of people think Braun should be banned permanently. Its apparently his third time. I thought it was only his second though.

They're using MLBs logic that this instance counts as 2.  One for using, one for lying about interacting with Bosh.

That's not the way the policy is written, so I'm not sure how MLB is coming to that conclusion...but that's what they're doing.

But the counter point is: Once that suspension was overturned....it was gone.  MLB can't mention it, use it during this appeal process, or anything else.  It never happened.

[GeorgeSteele]

MLB's case is certainly flimsy if not outright crap, but it will come down to whether they get a 'friendly' arbitrator in any appeals process.  Remember, MLB fired the guy that ruled against them in the Braun case.  So it's interesting that the arbitrator on any Biogenesis related suspensions would also be arbitrating on whether he gets to keep his job.

Also, just by throwing the players' names out there, those players are already convicted as to public opinion.  That doesn't help to the extent any of those guys are free agents.

[pilferk]

MLB's case is certainly flimsy if not outright crap, but it will come down to whether they get a 'friendly' arbitrator in any appeals process.  Remember, MLB fired the guy that ruled against them in the Braun case.  So it's interesting that the arbitrator on any Biogenesis related suspensions would also be arbitrating on whether he gets to keep his job.

Also, just by throwing the players' names out there, those players are already convicted as to public opinion.  That doesn't help to the extent any of those guys are free agents.

Keep in mind, there is now precedent (The New Orleans Saints bounty appeals) for players to take their case to federal courts if they think the arbitrator is being biased by the league.

So if MLB thinks they can stack the deck based on the arbitrator they assign to the cases...they may be in for a surprise.

[GeorgeSteele]

MLB's case is certainly flimsy if not outright crap, but it will come down to whether they get a 'friendly' arbitrator in any appeals process.  Remember, MLB fired the guy that ruled against them in the Braun case.  So it's interesting that the arbitrator on any Biogenesis related suspensions would also be arbitrating on whether he gets to keep his job.

Also, just by throwing the players' names out there, those players are already convicted as to public opinion.  That doesn't help to the extent any of those guys are free agents.

Keep in mind, there is now precedent (The New Orleans Saints bounty appeals) for players to take their case to federal courts if they think the arbitrator is being biased by the league.

So if MLB thinks they can stack the deck based on the arbitrator they assign to the cases...they may be in for a surprise.

Back when the Braun ruling was issued, I wondered why MLB didn't go to court.  Here's why:  http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/02/24/mlb-to-appeal-braun-ruling-to-federal-court-good-luck-with-that/

Basically, a court can override an arbitration only if there's fraud, corruption, misconduct or "manifest disregard for the law".  Difficult to prove, but perhaps not impossible if there's a blatantly biased arbitrator.  Still tough in any case because the MLB arbitrators are appointed through a joint process between the MLB and union. 

NFL Bountygate was somewhat different in that the players were challenging the decision of the NFL commissioner, not an arbitration panel that at least has the appearance of due process and impartiality.