Appetite For Democracy Blu-ray/DVD - live in Las Vegas Nov 21 2012

[JAEBALL]

it truly justs sounds like management issues .... not being critical....its just fact that whoever is the manager of GNR has a very difficult job , and there is a long history of delays, cancellations and unreleased videos, songs and dvds

so this is nothing new... i really don't think Axls voice has anything to do with this....just one average fans opinion

[damnthehaters]

His voice hasn't been the best in recent touring.  I think it was last good at the Rose Bar Sessions (I believe).  And I've been to live shows.  Either way you put it, he hasn't been that good live or on YouTube, or wherever else.  I think that live, his voice gets mixed with everything else (guitars, explosions, crowd noise, etc) and it's hard to even notice it.  People can say what they want, but (even though it's not always good quality) you watch enough YouTube clips, and you get a good idea what his voice is like.  Stop making excuses.  When Axl's voice is in top form, there isn't even question!  I believe this could very easily have something to do with why this DVD hasn't come out, and even possibly why a new album hasn't come out.  Axl knows when he's singing well and when he's not...I'm pretty sure.  And if this IS the reason, I think he's smart.  You can't take back things once they are released.

His voice was great towards the end of the Vegas run.

Ali

I have to disagree with "great".  On certain songs yes, but not the Axl we all know.  I was at one of the last Vegas shows.  Lately, it's just an issue of that "high" voice in my mind. 

[Ali]

His voice hasn't been the best in recent touring.  I think it was last good at the Rose Bar Sessions (I believe).  And I've been to live shows.  Either way you put it, he hasn't been that good live or on YouTube, or wherever else.  I think that live, his voice gets mixed with everything else (guitars, explosions, crowd noise, etc) and it's hard to even notice it.  People can say what they want, but (even though it's not always good quality) you watch enough YouTube clips, and you get a good idea what his voice is like.  Stop making excuses.  When Axl's voice is in top form, there isn't even question!  I believe this could very easily have something to do with why this DVD hasn't come out, and even possibly why a new album hasn't come out.  Axl knows when he's singing well and when he's not...I'm pretty sure.  And if this IS the reason, I think he's smart.  You can't take back things once they are released.

His voice was great towards the end of the Vegas run.

Ali

I have to disagree with "great".  On certain songs yes, but not the Axl we all know.  I was at one of the last Vegas shows.  Lately, it's just an issue of that "high" voice in my mind. 

I was at the last two Vegas shows and he sounded great.  He sounded better to me than he sounded roughly a year earlier in LA at the forum when I saw them.

As Jaeball said, I highly doubt vocal quality is an issue with the release.  I would suspect all the publishing and sync issues associated with the various covers are a huge issue to deal with.

Ali

[Conan]

A very brief update from Rockfuel on FB yesterday advised that the Blu-Ray is 'with' Universal Music Group and it is they who are deciding on theatrical dates.

It's also moved up from 'soon' to 'very soon'...

[Dr. Blutarsky]

So this may see the light of day after all.   

[D-GenerationX]

sorry, Ali, when it comes to objective judging audio quality of a show, and exspecially Axl's voice, it's wayyyyy too biased to just go the "you have to be there"-road! being there you're simply confronted with so many other factors leading to be being more of an non-objective (the additional visual factor being the biggest, live excitement being there with all the factors like getting a ticket/getting free off work/meeting others/having expectations, other people standing near/around you, the setlist and what the songs mean to you, the performance itself, the speakers' sound and where you're standing, how do you feel that night/time, girls, beers etc. etc.). it just doesn't work! as for a more "recent" GN'R experience of mine: i've seen, taped RAR 2006 myself just to be irritated a lot with comparing those results, the "live" memories and the tv broadcast later. and before anyone starts to shoot here, this comes from somebody seeing, taping, filming, editing and collecting shows since the late 80s, i've done tons and tons of things like this myself, comparing, even producing etc.
as a result from my ears and experience -and this also is to be seen/heard on circulating clips- : Axl's voice is more of the weakest link of his recent line-up since Rio 2011! and before another one shoots: no, i'd really would like to have his voice being strong!!

Very well put, all of it.

The problem with Ali and others trying to sell us the same bullshit story is how dependent it all is on us disregarding everything we see and hear. 

We can produce various recordings over a 2 year stretch that all show him struggling.  No matter.  He was awesome that time Ali was there.  We are obviously mistaken.

Come on.

[Ali]

sorry, Ali, when it comes to objective judging audio quality of a show, and exspecially Axl's voice, it's wayyyyy too biased to just go the "you have to be there"-road! being there you're simply confronted with so many other factors leading to be being more of an non-objective (the additional visual factor being the biggest, live excitement being there with all the factors like getting a ticket/getting free off work/meeting others/having expectations, other people standing near/around you, the setlist and what the songs mean to you, the performance itself, the speakers' sound and where you're standing, how do you feel that night/time, girls, beers etc. etc.). it just doesn't work! as for a more "recent" GN'R experience of mine: i've seen, taped RAR 2006 myself just to be irritated a lot with comparing those results, the "live" memories and the tv broadcast later. and before anyone starts to shoot here, this comes from somebody seeing, taping, filming, editing and collecting shows since the late 80s, i've done tons and tons of things like this myself, comparing, even producing etc.
as a result from my ears and experience -and this also is to be seen/heard on circulating clips- : Axl's voice is more of the weakest link of his recent line-up since Rio 2011! and before another one shoots: no, i'd really would like to have his voice being strong!!

Very well put, all of it.

The problem with Ali and others trying to sell us the same bullshit story is how dependent it all is on us disregarding everything we see and hear. 

We can produce various recordings over a 2 year stretch that all show him struggling.  No matter.  He was awesome that time Ali was there.  We are obviously mistaken.

Come on.

No, you are mistaken.  No one is saying anything that is dependent on you disregarding anything.  Performances can vary from night to night.  One night can be bad, the next show can be good.  Furthermore, the performance on a couple of songs may not be representative of the entire show.  Rare is the show that is recorded in its entirety and leaded as a bootleg.

So, yes, unless you were at the particular show in question and/or heard the ENTIRE show, the person who was at the show and/or heard the entire show, is in a much better position to form a truly informed opinion on the show in question.

And that doesn't take into account difference in personal taste, especially when it comes to vocal tone.

So, no, there is no "bullshit story" and you don't have to disregard anything.  You just may not be as well informed as you presume to be, or you may not be "correct", as you presume you are, apparently.

Ali

[D-GenerationX]

So, yes, unless you were at the particular show in question and/or heard the ENTIRE show, the person who was at the show and/or heard the entire show, is in a much better position to form a truly informed opinion on the show in question.

And that doesn't take into account difference in personal taste, especially when it comes to vocal tone.

So you have to be an accredited vocal coach to state definitively that there is little power in his voice these days?  Is that the thing? 

These clips and recording ain't exactly hard to find.  You don't need a treasure map, you need an internet connection.  And to make an assessment, you only need ears. We call up countless clips of him over the past two years and play them for people, they will find a guy in strong voice?  Something like that?

Let's leave it like this, then.  Your one show, that only you are qualified to speak on, he was awesome.  Just top notch.  Fine. 

Why he sounds weak, out of puff, and generally subpar on many, many, many, other clips from many, many, many other shows...that's just some ghost in the machine.  Or a difference of opinion.  Having him barely audible on some of these songs, that's some matter of personal taste.

Got it.

[Ali]

So, yes, unless you were at the particular show in question and/or heard the ENTIRE show, the person who was at the show and/or heard the entire show, is in a much better position to form a truly informed opinion on the show in question.

And that doesn't take into account difference in personal taste, especially when it comes to vocal tone.

So you have to be an accredited vocal coach to state definitively that there is little power in his voice these days?  Is that the thing? 

These clips and recording ain't exactly hard to find.  You don't need a treasure map, you need an internet connection.  And to make an assessment, you only need ears. We call up countless clips of him over the past two years and play them for people, they will find a guy in strong voice?  Something like that?

Let's leave it like this, then.  Your one show, that only you are qualified to speak on, he was awesome.  Just top notch.  Fine. 

Why he sounds weak, out of puff, and generally subpar on many, many, many, other clips from many, many, many other shows...that's just some ghost in the machine.  Or a difference of opinion.  Having him barely audible on some of these songs, that's some matter of personal taste.

Got it.

You are completely misinterpreting everything I wrote.

Where did I say anything about having to be a vocal coach?  Nowhere.

I never said I was the ONLY one qualified to speak about the show I was at.  What I'm saying is that if I'm at the show, the WHOLE show, I'm in a better position to judge the show as in the WHOLE show, than someone who listened to one or two or three YouTube videos.

What you consider to be subpar may not be what another person considers to be subpar especially when it comes to vocal tone.  Some people may prefer a raspy voice, others may find it abrasive.  That is absolutely a matter of personal taste and is the very reason I cited vocal tone as being subjective and a matter of personal taste.

No real discussion can be had if you insist on making straw-man arguments. 

Ali

[D-GenerationX]

I never said I was the ONLY one qualified to speak about the show I was at.  What I'm saying is that if I'm at the show, the WHOLE show, I'm in a better position to judge the show as in the WHOLE show, than someone who listened to one or two or three YouTube videos.

So let's throw your show out.  As I said, I'm conceding that point.  Frankly, I don't see it as super relevant to begin with.

If we are talking about a certain clip, let's talk about that clip.  You want to tell me he was different the night you saw him...fine, whatever.  But let's talk about what we are both watching.  Why does he not sound good here?

What would make this easier is if we can just post stuff here and have a real discussion.  Is that even allowed here?  I ask because I don't see any clips posted anywhere, which is odd.  But I think this conversation works a lot better if several clips can be posted and then we have a discussion about those clips, not some show you were at or some show I was at.

[Mysteron]

Is it fair to judge a show based on Youtube clips?

I always think shows that you go to sound very different on Youtube

[D-GenerationX]

Is it fair to judge a show based on Youtube clips?

I always think shows that you go to sound very different on Youtube

I think the argument that nearly every recent single Youtube clip shows a guy in weak voice, but they are all faulty, is a poor one.

I also question why other band's Youtube clips tend to be accepted as reality and not accused of being voodoo. 

Of course, that's a bigger picture observation.  I guess we can add the veracity of Youtube clips to the ever growing list of things that are one way for every single other band in the known universe...ah, but its different for Guns N' Roses.

[requiem156]

So you have to be an accredited vocal coach to state definitively that there is little power in his voice these days?  Is that the thing? 

No, but it helps to at least understand the mechanics of vocal technique if you're going to start speculating about it.

[D-GenerationX]

So you have to be an accredited vocal coach to state definitively that there is little power in his voice these days?  Is that the thing? 

No, but it helps to at least understand the mechanics of vocal technique if you're going to start speculating about it.

Ain't a hell of a lot of speculating in the equation when you have soundboard bootlegs from the man's whole career and compare and contrast. 

Not really sure I need capital letters after my name and a plaque on the wall to say "hey, this doesn't sound as good".

[Ali]

Is it fair to judge a show based on Youtube clips?

I always think shows that you go to sound very different on Youtube

I think the argument that nearly every recent single Youtube clip shows a guy in weak voice, but they are all faulty, is a poor one.

I also question why other band's Youtube clips tend to be accepted as reality and not accused of being voodoo. 

Of course, that's a bigger picture observation.  I guess we can add the veracity of Youtube clips to the ever growing list of things that are one way for every single other band in the known universe...ah, but its different for Guns N' Roses.

First off, the "nearly every...weak voice" statement is a blanket generalization from an inherently subjective evaluation.  Which, is neither true nor false, but that sentiment may not be shared by all.  Having said that, I actually agree that that saying ALL YouTube clips are faulty is a poor argument.  But, I haven't read anyone express that notion.

However, not all YouTube clips are of equal quality.  Some are very good, others are poor.  So, the recording quality is a variable.

While you and others may view this situation as black and white, myself and others may believe the issue of Axl's vocals are not black and white, but really in shades of gray like the most things are.

Ali

[GnR-NOW]

Axl at 51 doesn't sound like he did at 28, but who would actually expect him too. He's the only singer I've ever seen scrutinized the older he gets. The guy performs with amazing energy maybe more energy now then ever. If you don't like how he sounds don't go to the shows .

[Ali]

Axl at 51 doesn't sound like he did at 28, but who would actually expect him too. He's the only singer I've ever seen scrutinized the older he gets. The guy performs with amazing energy maybe more energy now then ever. If you don't like how he sounds don't go to the shows .

Agreed that he doesn't sound now like he used to.  Personally, I think he sounded the best during the Appetite era.  I think he sounded the worst during the UYI era because his voice was raspy to the point of being abrasive (IMO).  I think he sounds better now than he did during the UYI era.  So, although I don't feel he sounds as good as perhaps once was, I feel he is better and more consistent vocally than he was during the UYI era.  That is just fine with me, personally, as a fan.

Ali

[D-GenerationX]

Of all the post 1993 line-ups and tours, I thought he sounded the best on that 2006 tour.  Very solid. 

Axl's AFD era live voice is great.  But I agree with Ali about the rasp being a bit heavy come the UYI tour.  That first leg in summer of 1991 is pretty rough.  And he appears to have blown it out by those last few gigs in L.A.

But 1992 and 1993, I think he sounded awesome.  I think his vocals on those Skin N' Bones shows are tremendous.  And my personal favorite bootlegs were that December 1991 through June 1992 time frame, and I think he sounds great throughout.

[russkwtx]

One of the funniest things I have read on this board in many years is the argument that 'you can't just judge the quality of Axl's voice by being there' due to myriad other factors that affect one's perceptions. Wow. From that point of view, I guess henceforth I cannot judge a restaurant's food by eating it, I cannot judge a movie by seeing it, and I can't judge good sex by having it. All due to extraneous factors. All I can say is that, as a human with a modicum of intelligence and thankfully good sense, and relatively good hearing, I can tell the difference between good vocals and bad vocals by being there. Period. And no one should try to tell me otherwise because you only make yourself look silly.

The essence of the argument is that "you were there, so you don't know." That argument is absurd. It can only be valid in bizzaro world where unreality becomes reality. For the rest of us, here on earth, I know what I hear and will make judgments based upon actual, in-person observation.

[Limulus]

a general fan mostly does see a band not that often live compared to eating or having sex. for many it's a 1x time thing goin to a show for one band during a 5 years period or so. and the point wasnt "you are zero objective when being at a show", the point is "it's hard to do this audio judging justice only based on being at the show and condemning ANY other recordings or methods"!
the discussion tends to go extreme in both ways. the "his 2013 voice is stronger than ever" show-goers and "you werent there so you dont know" are just off! best thing is having multiple recordings/shows/attendings as i've explained it somewhere above with my RAR2006 experience with Axl and his musicians.