"Next Album" rumor / speculation thread *UPDATE AUG 22/2023*

[mortismurphy]

Mortismurphy and DX...

Then Jarmo tells Mortismurphy how the European 2002 tour was cancelled by management and we again get no response.  

The tour was cancelled by management? I thought the promoter pulled the plug?

I discussed this with Jarmo at some length. You must have overlooked the replies. Jarmo introduced the 2002 tour to make a rhetorical point (which is still, not completely clear to me, even now) about, me not blaming management for its cancellation. I replied that I see the blame, as resting more with Axl. There the debate stands. The whole discussion can be read above.

You've both also been reminded with facts about how Chinese was actually very successful when it came out, but yet, not reply....and then continuous posts about how it was a flop.

It was being sold for $1.99, in bargain bins a week after its release. Do you consider that a good indicator of success? I even remember somebody on one of the forums posting pictures of copies being offloaded.

As I recall, the $1.99 price was a couple years after release...which isn't really that uncommon, especially when the store bought so damn many copies.

Yes, I thought Chinese was a rather successful album.  Not in terms of radio play, or people talking about it everywhere you went.  But I think the amount of records it sold in a day where records just aren't really bought...and also after you could have already listened to it on myspace, pretty much indicates that it was successful.  Like I mentioned earlier, most any other band out there would take those sales.  You could follow up by saying...but this isn't any other band, it's guns n roses!  But it's not Guns N Roses of 1991.  It's a new band with new faces, and who had a very long delay between there last album.  Things are different.

So my question to you and DX is, what were/are your expectations for this version of GNR? 

I thought the sales were disappointing in North America. The fact that AC/DC, a band most people had written off (in regards to albums), for pretty much since the Razors Edge period, scored a hit in the same year, proves there was life in the old market. You could also argue Contraband - granted, a little earlier - or Death Magnetic. CD sold less copies than all those albums. Personally, I am not that bothered. You are arguing against me for stating a fact that I do not feel particularly passionate enough to defend (because everything is, oh so, serious here and must be, perfect). I like Izzy's solo albums and they sell - downloads - about five copies!! Pretend that CD sold - by all means. But it is, a fact. What do you expect me to do here? Act like Jarmo and pretend the album sold bucketloads? It is merely a fact I mentioned. The bargain basement evidence would be hard for me to pull up now - and you know that - but I distinctly remember it and am not going to take a load of Prozac pills and start speaking like a child from a 1950s American film in order to refute the evidence: ''gee, golly gosh. everything is just sure swell here Mr Hendricks''.

Facts are facts.

[damnthehaters]

2001! Your beloved management booked a tour and admitted to doing so. When will you listen?

But we are talking about 2002 here - at least the poster who accused me of ignoring replies was.

What?  His point was that THAT management cancelled a tour.  The same management you thought was so brilliant.  Jarmo was making a point that they cancelled shows just like later management who you were so down on.  Who cares if it was 2001 or 2002...it was the same management during those years. 

[damnthehaters]

So my question to you and DX is, what were/are your expectations for this version of GNR? 

Solid, consistent, arena level act here in the U.S.

The back catalog alone supports that.  I never expected Axl to ever have a big hit again.  He does, great.  But even if not, I figured he could put out albums with his new band and tour behind them.  Something like, 1/3 new band stuff and 2/3 old band stuff at first, moving closer to 50/50 at time wore on.  But be a basic touring institution and a solid player in the rock touring scene.

My expectations would be that a band of this caliber, with this catalog, with this talent, should be an arena act in every major city in the country.

I wish Axl would have put out more albums by now as well.  And I'm not sure this GNR could play to 15-20k a night without consistent output in music.  The old music only goes so far, especially when most people in this country can't except this new band.  The only way to change that is by putting out quality music after quality music and winning fans over. 

If you never expected Axl to put out another hit, then why was Chinese such a big flop to you? Sounds like you didn't expect a whole lot with new music and Chinese in fact, didn't have a big hit (although I would put Better along side any of there other hits. It just wasn't pushed enough).  So why label it as a big flop when it didn't seem far from your expectations?

Me personally, I would put Better on a GNRs greatest hits album if a friend asked for one.  And my second tier album would have 3-4 more Chinese songs.  Therefor, I think Chinese was a pretty good album.  This is just me...but the album sales are the facts.  I think those were pretty good sales. 

[damnthehaters]

Mortismurphy and DX...

Then Jarmo tells Mortismurphy how the European 2002 tour was cancelled by management and we again get no response.  

The tour was cancelled by management? I thought the promoter pulled the plug?

I discussed this with Jarmo at some length. You must have overlooked the replies. Jarmo introduced the 2002 tour to make a rhetorical point (which is still, not completely clear to me, even now) about, me not blaming management for its cancellation. I replied that I see the blame, as resting more with Axl. There the debate stands. The whole discussion can be read above.

You've both also been reminded with facts about how Chinese was actually very successful when it came out, but yet, not reply....and then continuous posts about how it was a flop.

It was being sold for $1.99, in bargain bins a week after its release. Do you consider that a good indicator of success? I even remember somebody on one of the forums posting pictures of copies being offloaded.

As I recall, the $1.99 price was a couple years after release...which isn't really that uncommon, especially when the store bought so damn many copies.

Yes, I thought Chinese was a rather successful album.  Not in terms of radio play, or people talking about it everywhere you went.  But I think the amount of records it sold in a day where records just aren't really bought...and also after you could have already listened to it on myspace, pretty much indicates that it was successful.  Like I mentioned earlier, most any other band out there would take those sales.  You could follow up by saying...but this isn't any other band, it's guns n roses!  But it's not Guns N Roses of 1991.  It's a new band with new faces, and who had a very long delay between there last album.  Things are different.

So my question to you and DX is, what were/are your expectations for this version of GNR? 

I thought the sales were disappointing in North America. The fact that AC/DC, a band most people had written off (in regards to albums), for pretty much since the Razors Edge period, scored a hit in the same year, proves there was life in the old market. You could also argue Contraband - granted, a little earlier - or Death Magnetic. CD sold less copies than all those albums. Personally, I am not that bothered. You are arguing against me for stating a fact that I do not feel particularly passionate enough to defend (because everything is, oh so, serious here and must be, perfect). I like Izzy's solo albums and they sell - downloads - about five copies!! Pretend that CD sold - by all means. But it is, a fact. What do you expect me to do here? Act like Jarmo and pretend the album sold bucketloads? It is merely a fact I mentioned. The bargain basement evidence would be hard for me to pull up now - and you know that - but I distinctly remember it and am not going to take a load of Prozac pills and start speaking like a child from a 1950s American film in order to refute the evidence: ''gee, golly gosh. everything is just sure swell here Mr Hendricks''.

Facts are facts.

That's your opinion that "most people" had written off ACDC.  I would certainly disagree.

I'm so confused on what your "fact" or "facts" are???  "It is merely a fact I mentioned"??  What is...that Chinese was selling for $1.99 one week after release?  That's what you call a fact?  Maybe it was in the Best Buy near you..I have no friggen clue.  But first, statements aren't called facts when you have no evidence.  I've already read multiple statements from people on here saying how they never saw this.  And secondly, if what your saying was true, that really doesn't mean Chinese was a fail or didn't sell well.  This actually makes sense that Best Buy may have done this at some point due to buying so many damn units off GNR.  GNR made a great deal there! 

What a fact IS, is that Chinese went to number 2 on the rock charts the week of release behind Black Ice.  That's a fact.  Does this not indicate a pretty decent album?  Definitely doesn't sound like an album that was a bust.   

[jarmo]

As I recall, the $1.99 price was a couple years after release...which isn't really that uncommon, especially when the store bought so damn many copies.

Yes it was, in 2011. Where's mortismurphy and his proof that it happened the week after its release?

2001! Your beloved management booked a tour and admitted to doing so. When will you listen?

But we are talking about 2002 here - at least the poster who accused me of ignoring replies was.

2002 was brought up, you did not want to put any blame on management for its cancelation. You're quick to put blame on current management for anything that is wrong in your opinion, but not for the 2002 tour. Then I brought up the 2001 tour in Europe that management booked and took responsibility for. It never happened.

When will you hold the then management responsible for that?
I know they're not Team Brazil so it might be hard for you to do so. Since it appears other previous managers have made what you would label mistakes.

What do you expect me to do here? Act like Jarmo and pretend the album sold bucketloads?

Again, trying to ridicule me and make generalizations. YOU made claims that the album was a failure. Some of us just pointed out how wrong you are.

You, the same guy who hasn't really liked anything the band has doe in a decade.

It is merely a fact I mentioned. The bargain basement evidence would be hard for me to pull up now - and you know that - but I distinctly remember it and am not going to take a load of Prozac pills and start speaking like a child from a 1950s American film in order to refute the evidence: ''gee, golly gosh. everything is just sure swell here Mr Hendricks''.

Facts are facts.

It's not a fact if you made it up!

It was not sold for $1.99 the week after its release at Best Buy. The reason why it's so hard for you to prove it happened is because yo made it up! It did not happen.

You confuse and condense things to prove your point. And you fail.
I'm sorry it didn't happen the way you wanted it to so you could go on and on about what a failure it was. Stick to facts. It wasn't sold for that price in 2008, 2009 or 2010.


Here's a fact: Best Buy sold the album for $1.99 in 2011. Now, explain how that is the week after it's release. 

Facts are facts.


/jarmo

[mortismurphy]

2002, the promoters pulled the tour because Axl was up to his old tricks. Jarmo, why should I blame management when Axl refused to turn up? I do not see any reason to put the blame at Goldstein's door. I still do not understand your point here.

PS

I did not make it up about the $1.99 thing. I have a distinct memory of it. Choose to believe it or not but it is true.

Listen, I do not care either way. Some of my favourite albums bombed. It does not affect me in the slightest. But CD under performed. It is a fact.

[14 Yrs Of Silence]

2002, the promoters pulled the tour because Axl was up to his old tricks. Jarmo, why should I blame management when Axl refused to turn up? I do not see any reason to put the blame at Goldstein's door. I still do not understand your point here.

PS

I did not make it up about the $1.99 thing. I have a distinct memory of it. Choose to believe it or not but it is true.

Listen, I do not care either way. Some of my favourite albums bombed. It does not affect me in the slightest. But CD under performed. It is a fact.

Simply not true. I distinctly recall in 2011 when they made it $1.99.  Certainly wasn't the week after its release. That doesn't even make sense.

[TheBaconman]

This sure is getting stale pretty quick.

It's pretty obvious some are just here to argue, for the sake of arguing and it's a total headache

Hey I like great discussion and great debate, but it's seems some on here ignore when people call them out on being wrong.  Some people just are making up things, stating them as facts. 

The worst is some people seem not even to be fans of the band.   Why would they even be here posting?  This is not the same band it was in the 80s, 90s or even early 2000s.  Get over it

[mortismurphy]

I remember it happening. I remember somebody posting photos of it being offloaded for that price. What do expect me to do, lie to myself? And it does make sense. I remember the same thing happening to Jackson's Invincible.

[TheBaconman]

2002, the promoters pulled the tour because Axl was up to his old tricks. Jarmo, why should I blame management when Axl refused to turn up? I do not see any reason to put the blame at Goldstein's door. I still do not understand your point here.

PS

I did not make it up about the $1.99 thing. I have a distinct memory of it. Choose to believe it or not but it is true.

Listen, I do not care either way. Some of my favourite albums bombed. It does not affect me in the slightest. But CD under performed. It is a fact.

You should say where you are from and what store you saw this great price for this album was in.  Most here are comparing it to the best buy stores in the United States or other large stores.   I am sure if you are in a small town with a small record store or what ever it may have have been discounted at this price

So what is it?   Did Chinese bomb?  Or did it under perform?   They are two big differences in the two.

You also seem to lump all of North America into one bowl.    And tend not to mention canada or Mexico as being part of it

CD was a number one record in Canada.   I would not call that a bomb or under performing.  Guns then preceded,to support this album with a nation wide successful tour here.   I would call this a fact, but there is enough people around here using the word FACT that it has left a bad taste in my mouth

You also seem to have a lot of energy for saying all things wrong with the current direction of the band and for a lot of things they have done wrong in the past years.  But for the past 10 years, you have been registered to this board and haven't posted anything until recently.  Why is that?   Has all this rage just been eating at you from inside  

[mortismurphy]

It was a Best Buy, in the United States (I live in the UK and we did not have the Best Buy thing).

[TheBaconman]

Explain to me how Chinese was NOT successful? 

It flopped in North America. I do not like it anymore than you do but you cannot argue with facts, and, when you have a new release being sold for $1, within days of its release, you know the album has sold poorly.

I like this post

You group all of North America as one

Then you say it was selling for 1 dollar, days after it's release

At least you have doubled the price of it, at 1.99.  And have given it at least a week to drop now.

Both would be impossible in the United States with the best buy national deal.     But whatever....

[mortismurphy]

I was being flippant (you sure like specifics here?).

From my recollection, it was around, $1.99 (it might have been $1.99), in a Best Buy, in the United States. Do not believe me if you do not want to. As I said, I am arguing about something that I do not feel particularly passionate about; Izzy's albums sell barely any copies yet that does not rob them of their listening pleasure (for me).

[TheBaconman]

I was being flippant (you sure like specifics here?).

From my recollection, it was around, $1.99 (it might have been $1.99), in a Best Buy, in the United States. Do not believe me if you do not want to. As I said, I am arguing about something that I do not feel particularly passionate about; Izzy's albums sell barely any copies yet that does not rob them of their listening pleasure (for me).

I am not arguing at all

Chinese sold millions world wide, I am not sure why you are comparing it to an artist you admit barely sells any copies

And regardless.  What would guns care what best buy sells the album at after the fact.   Best buy already bought 1.5 million copies of the album.  They can sell it for what ever they want to

[damnthehaters]

2002, the promoters pulled the tour because Axl was up to his old tricks. Jarmo, why should I blame management when Axl refused to turn up? I do not see any reason to put the blame at Goldstein's door. I still do not understand your point here.

PS

I did not make it up about the $1.99 thing. I have a distinct memory of it. Choose to believe it or not but it is true.

Listen, I do not care either way. Some of my favourite albums bombed. It does not affect me in the slightest. But CD under performed. It is a fact.

You just don't get it do you....Management at that time cancelled a EUROPEAN tour.  We're not talking about the North American tour.  

[mortismurphy]

I will not be accused of lying, by, Jarmo, anyone. While it is impossible for me to find seven year old posts on defunct fora, these articles do support my point?

By Chris Steffen | November 24, 2008
Guns n' Roses fans expecting to be met with pyro, a giant inflatable Axl Rose ? or at least Chinese Democracy blaring from the sound system ? were in for a surprise when the anxiously awaited album hit Best Buy stores yesterday. At all the Manhattan outlets Rock Daily visited Sunday, you'd be hard-pressed to know it was one of the most hyped release days of the century.

Best Buy has released its share of exclusive music (notably live DVDs from the Rolling Stones and the Police), but serving as the sole distributor of Guns n' Roses Chinese Democracy, which the retailer dubbed "the most anticipated album of all time" in its promotional materials, was a coup. Yet there were no midnight sales, and therefore no opportunities to nab video like the 1991 footage of fans lining up to buy both of the Use Your Illusion long boxes. When the doors of one downtown New York City store opened at 9 a.m., there were two customers waiting outside. Once in, it took a few minutes of searching to actually find the discs, and the promised vinyl was nowhere to be found ? and neither was a cashier, for that matter.

The Chelsea location fared better with a full stand-up display, but the kids in the store were more interested in playing "Santeria" on Guitar Hero. That is, except for the one longhair who stared at the disc in his hands on his way out the door, as if it would disappear if he neglected it. As he left the store, he held it up to a passerby, laughed and said, "Crazy."

The Midtown Manhattan store had the most purchases during Rock Daily's visit of any of the locations, including one uniformed police officer who must have gotten over Axl's diss on "One in a Million." One customer flipped through every copy on the rack, either on an OCD quest for the most pristine packaging or finally coming to the conclusion of his 14-year internal struggle over whether he should buy it. He did.

With what must have been a precisely negotiated deal, it's curious how minimally Chinese Democracy was emphasized in the Best Buy stores. In none of the four locations visited Sunday was the record playing on the house music system, and only one had any sort of stand-alone display. This isn't to say that Chinese Democracy won't do big numbers, especially with customers descending on the retailer en masse this week for Black Friday sales, but after a decade and a half of anticipation, Best Buy's release of Chinese Democracy began in New York with a shrug.

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/chinese-democracy-hits-best-buys-in-new-york-with-a-yawn-20081124

While mainstream media is touting that the Black Friday weekend started the holiday selling season with a bang, music merchandisers certainly didn't have that experience.

Music sales were down anywhere from 10% to 30% and hit albums released for Black Friday didn't perform up to expectations, according to merchants contacted by Billboard. Sources say Kanye West's "808s & Heartbreak" will sell in the range of 425,000-450,000 units, significantly down from 700,000-975,000 units previously projected.

Guns N' Roses' "Chinese Democracy" is expected to clock in at 250,000-260,000, which is also down from expectations that it would sell anywhere from 300,000-784,000 units.

While some press reports show across-the-board retail weekend sales up 7%, music merchandisers point out that in order to accurately measure the holiday, it should be measured the week containing Black Friday this year, which was the last week in November, versus last year when the day fell in the third week of the month.

At music specialty stores Newbury Comics, sales were down 21% on a comparable store basis for the last two weeks of November, while music sales were down 28%, reports the Brighton, Mass.-based chain's CEO, Mike Dreese.

At big boxes like Wal-Mart and Barnes & Noble, label executives report that hit sales were off significantly for the Black Friday weekend, anywhere from 30% to 40%.

On the other hand, as expected, online shopping was stronger than last year, says an executive with a wholesaler that does CD and DVD fulfillment for online stores. But he declined to provide details, other than to say that Friday was better than Thursday, for the first time.

"I hear traffic was high, but overall purchasing wasn't because shoppers were cherry-picking the deals," says one senior distribution executive.

http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/266178/kanye-guns-n-roses-post-slow-debut-week-sales

[mortismurphy]

2002, the promoters pulled the tour because Axl was up to his old tricks. Jarmo, why should I blame management when Axl refused to turn up? I do not see any reason to put the blame at Goldstein's door. I still do not understand your point here.

PS

I did not make it up about the $1.99 thing. I have a distinct memory of it. Choose to believe it or not but it is true.

Listen, I do not care either way. Some of my favourite albums bombed. It does not affect me in the slightest. But CD under performed. It is a fact.

You just don't get it do you....Management at that time cancelled a EUROPEAN tour.  We're not talking about the North American tour.  

The European tour that Axl, allegedly, only found out via the internet? Well Axl cancelled that. Goldstein had booked a tour he did not want to play. It led to Goldstein's sacking.

[damnthehaters]

I will not be accused of lying, by, Jarmo, anyone. While it is impossible for me to find seven year old posts on defunct fora, these articles do support my point?

By Chris Steffen | November 24, 2008
Guns n' Roses fans expecting to be met with pyro, a giant inflatable Axl Rose ? or at least Chinese Democracy blaring from the sound system ? were in for a surprise when the anxiously awaited album hit Best Buy stores yesterday. At all the Manhattan outlets Rock Daily visited Sunday, you'd be hard-pressed to know it was one of the most hyped release days of the century.

Best Buy has released its share of exclusive music (notably live DVDs from the Rolling Stones and the Police), but serving as the sole distributor of Guns n' Roses Chinese Democracy, which the retailer dubbed "the most anticipated album of all time" in its promotional materials, was a coup. Yet there were no midnight sales, and therefore no opportunities to nab video like the 1991 footage of fans lining up to buy both of the Use Your Illusion long boxes. When the doors of one downtown New York City store opened at 9 a.m., there were two customers waiting outside. Once in, it took a few minutes of searching to actually find the discs, and the promised vinyl was nowhere to be found ? and neither was a cashier, for that matter.

The Chelsea location fared better with a full stand-up display, but the kids in the store were more interested in playing "Santeria" on Guitar Hero. That is, except for the one longhair who stared at the disc in his hands on his way out the door, as if it would disappear if he neglected it. As he left the store, he held it up to a passerby, laughed and said, "Crazy."

The Midtown Manhattan store had the most purchases during Rock Daily's visit of any of the locations, including one uniformed police officer who must have gotten over Axl's diss on "One in a Million." One customer flipped through every copy on the rack, either on an OCD quest for the most pristine packaging or finally coming to the conclusion of his 14-year internal struggle over whether he should buy it. He did.

With what must have been a precisely negotiated deal, it's curious how minimally Chinese Democracy was emphasized in the Best Buy stores. In none of the four locations visited Sunday was the record playing on the house music system, and only one had any sort of stand-alone display. This isn't to say that Chinese Democracy won't do big numbers, especially with customers descending on the retailer en masse this week for Black Friday sales, but after a decade and a half of anticipation, Best Buy's release of Chinese Democracy began in New York with a shrug.

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/chinese-democracy-hits-best-buys-in-new-york-with-a-yawn-20081124

While mainstream media is touting that the Black Friday weekend started the holiday selling season with a bang, music merchandisers certainly didn't have that experience.

Music sales were down anywhere from 10% to 30% and hit albums released for Black Friday didn't perform up to expectations, according to merchants contacted by Billboard. Sources say Kanye West's "808s & Heartbreak" will sell in the range of 425,000-450,000 units, significantly down from 700,000-975,000 units previously projected.

Guns N' Roses' "Chinese Democracy" is expected to clock in at 250,000-260,000, which is also down from expectations that it would sell anywhere from 300,000-784,000 units.

While some press reports show across-the-board retail weekend sales up 7%, music merchandisers point out that in order to accurately measure the holiday, it should be measured the week containing Black Friday this year, which was the last week in November, versus last year when the day fell in the third week of the month.

At music specialty stores Newbury Comics, sales were down 21% on a comparable store basis for the last two weeks of November, while music sales were down 28%, reports the Brighton, Mass.-based chain's CEO, Mike Dreese.

At big boxes like Wal-Mart and Barnes & Noble, label executives report that hit sales were off significantly for the Black Friday weekend, anywhere from 30% to 40%.

On the other hand, as expected, online shopping was stronger than last year, says an executive with a wholesaler that does CD and DVD fulfillment for online stores. But he declined to provide details, other than to say that Friday was better than Thursday, for the first time.

"I hear traffic was high, but overall purchasing wasn't because shoppers were cherry-picking the deals," says one senior distribution executive.

http://www.billboard.com/articles/news/266178/kanye-guns-n-roses-post-slow-debut-week-sales

And this proves what??  That it's not 1991 anymore and people weren't lining up outside to buy the album?  Proves my point earlier how your expectations of the album may have been absurdly ridiculous. 

And it doesn't matter if Chinese sold between 250-260k instead of the EXPECTED 350-700k.  Notice how the expectations had such a huge range?  Because nobody really knew how it would sell.  And who's EXPECTATIONS were those...some writers who like you, were thinking it would be like the Illusions all over again? 

These articles do not prove anything.  The only "facts" we have in here, is that it sold between 250-260k (which was good for #2 on the charts by the way).  So how is that a fail?  The other so called fact we have is that people weren't lined up outside the store to buy the album.  I got news for you, if you thought this was going to happen, your really stuck in the past. 

[mortismurphy]

Compared to Chinese Democracy's 261,000, Black Ice debuted at 784,000 in its first week; Death Magnetic, 490,000 in just its first three days; Viva la Vida sold 720,000, first week. This is all the same year, US Billboard sales, so, relatively speaking, are suitable comparisons. In light of those statistics, it is not unreasonable to see Chinese Democracy as a failure in the United States. That anyone expected Illusion type sales is a straw man argument. Unless your name is Eminem, nobody was selling those type of numbers in 2008.

[jarmo]

2002, the promoters pulled the tour because Axl was up to his old tricks. Jarmo, why should I blame management when Axl refused to turn up? I do not see any reason to put the blame at Goldstein's door. I still do not understand your point here.

Forget 2002.
2001!

Focus please!

The tour was booked to happen in Europe in June 2001 with shows in the UK as well. Which I believe is where you reside?
Then it was rescheduled to December. Then canceled and management took full responsibility for it.

When will you acknowledge this?
Either you are in denial or you're just taking the piss and trolling. Which one is it?


Edited to add:

Now I saw it:

The European tour that Axl, allegedly, only found out via the internet? Well Axl cancelled that. Goldstein had booked a tour he did not want to play. It led to Goldstein's sacking.

No blame on management. Hahahahaha. God you're predictable.

I did not make it up about the $1.99 thing. I have a distinct memory of it. Choose to believe it or not but it is true.

I was in the US the week after its release and I have no memory of this. Also, a simple fact that some of us remember it happening in 2011.

It it possible your memory is wrong and you condensed it into "the week after" just because that's how you want to remember it?




/jarmo