2012 Baseball Season/Off-Season Discussion

[Falcon]

Alright, now that the Cards run has ended I can go back to regularly scheduled programming.

I never thought they'd make it this far with letting Albert walk, the retirement of TLR/Dave Duncan, Berkman going down early and Carp being out all but a couple of tune up starts and the playoffs - it was a helluva season all considered.

They're in good shape moving forward, loads of young arms with serious experience on the books.

Remember 2 names we got glimpses of late - Trevor Rosenthal and Shelby Miller, you'll being hearing much more from them in the years to come.

As for ARod...

Way too much blame, he's not the only Yank that didn't hit.

He deserves his share of the grief but that's it, it's not his fault the Yanks signed him to a goofy deal.

Farrell to the Sox was a no brainer, it's going to be a tough road for them but it won't be 88 years.

No real rooting interest for the most part in the WS, love Jimmy Leyland but Senior Circuit loyal.

Tigers in 5 is the prediction.

Back to ARod for a sec, sorry pilf - I couldn't resist.

In no order, here's 12 guys I'd take over ARod right now.

Longoria
Cabrera
Zimmerman
Beltre
Headley
Freese
Bautista
Wright
Sandoval
Ramirez - Hanley/Aramis
Trumbo

[tim_m]

I'd like to see the Tigers win it. Not because i like them more but because the Giants won just two years ago. I wanna see someone who hasn't won in awhile win.

[AxlsMainMan]

Can we officially label Scutaro Mr. October?

[Falcon]

Can we officially label Scutaro Mr. October?

I think "Mr October 14-22 of 2012" will suffice.

[faldor]

John Farrell named Red Sox manager.  Looks like Mike Aviles is the compensation.  I'm alright with that.  Aviles was alright, but I don't think he was part of their future plans.  Hopefully Farrell can inject some life into that awful pitching staff of theirs.  Lester, Buccholz, and Bard all fared better when he was their pitching coach.  FWIW.

General consensus around Toronto is that the Blue Jays got completely hosed in this deal

Another rough outing for Carp' last night.

Aviles is a decent player.  There are actually some Red Sox fans who are upset because they got less from the Cubs (Chris Carpenter, not THAT Chris Carpenter) for Theo, then they gave for Farrell.  But, honestly I thought they'd have to give up more.  Especially after last season when the Blue Jays were asking for Buccholz.  Aviles is certainly a huge step down from that.  Plus, I don't think Aviles was a real part of their future plans.  He was a stopgap SS at best.  I actually expected more from him last season.  Not that he was bad, but I expected him to hit for a higher average. 

And to think, the Red Sox traded away Marco Scutaro so Aviles could take over at SS.  At the time, I applauded the trade because I thought the 2 were quite similar.  Well, it certainly doesn't appear that way right now.   

[faldor]

I NEVER said that his salary was the ONLY reason for him being dragged through the dirt.  You inferred that from my "25 million reasons" comment.  There's obviously more to it than his salary.  I've said time and again over the years that A-Rod is an ass, and isn't very well liked for a player of his stature (similar to Lebron). 

I didn't infer it. You implied it.  And I'm not sure what other implication you'd expect people to come away with given the words you typed and the context of the conversation.  It was also the only reason you initially presented (however you'd like to frame that presentation).  And it's one I disagree with.

Next time I'll be sure and list all 136 reasons A-Rod deserves blame instead of pointing out the most obvious one right off the bat.

[tim_m]

John Farrell named Red Sox manager.  Looks like Mike Aviles is the compensation.  I'm alright with that.  Aviles was alright, but I don't think he was part of their future plans.  Hopefully Farrell can inject some life into that awful pitching staff of theirs.  Lester, Buccholz, and Bard all fared better when he was their pitching coach.  FWIW.

General consensus around Toronto is that the Blue Jays got completely hosed in this deal

Another rough outing for Carp' last night.

Aviles is a decent player.  There are actually some Red Sox fans who are upset because they got less from the Cubs (Chris Carpenter, not THAT Chris Carpenter) for Theo, then they gave for Farrell.  But, honestly I thought they'd have to give up more.  Especially after last season when the Blue Jays were asking for Buccholz.  Aviles is certainly a huge step down from that.  Plus, I don't think Aviles was a real part of their future plans.  He was a stopgap SS at best.  I actually expected more from him last season.  Not that he was bad, but I expected him to hit for a higher average. 

And to think, the Red Sox traded away Marco Scutaro so Aviles could take over at SS.  At the time, I applauded the trade because I thought the 2 were quite similar.  Well, it certainly doesn't appear that way right now.   

There's no guarantee he'd be performing this well though if he were still a sox and with the team they had this year it wouldn't have helped.

[pilferk]

Next time I'll be sure and list all 136 reasons A-Rod deserves blame instead of pointing out the most obvious one right off the bat.

Again, that's my point.

[faldor]

Next time I'll be sure and list all 136 reasons A-Rod deserves blame instead of pointing out the most obvious one right off the bat.

Again, that's my point.

and again, we disagree on that point.

[AxlsMainMan]

John Farrell named Red Sox manager.  Looks like Mike Aviles is the compensation.  I'm alright with that.  Aviles was alright, but I don't think he was part of their future plans.  Hopefully Farrell can inject some life into that awful pitching staff of theirs.  Lester, Buccholz, and Bard all fared better when he was their pitching coach.  FWIW.

General consensus around Toronto is that the Blue Jays got completely hosed in this deal

Another rough outing for Carp' last night.

Aviles is a decent player.  There are actually some Red Sox fans who are upset because they got less from the Cubs (Chris Carpenter, not THAT Chris Carpenter) for Theo, then they gave for Farrell.  But, honestly I thought they'd have to give up more.  Especially after last season when the Blue Jays were asking for Buccholz.  Aviles is certainly a huge step down from that.  Plus, I don't think Aviles was a real part of their future plans.  He was a stopgap SS at best.  I actually expected more from him last season.  Not that he was bad, but I expected him to hit for a higher average. 

And to think, the Red Sox traded away Marco Scutaro so Aviles could take over at SS.  At the time, I applauded the trade because I thought the 2 were quite similar.  Well, it certainly doesn't appear that way right now.   

I guess it's possible that the Blue Jays were so adamant about ridding themselves of Escobar that they jumped at this deal.

Scutaro was a lot of fun to watch while a Blue Jay and a lot of fans were upset when the Jays didn't do more to try and keep him from going to Boston.

John Farrell named Red Sox manager.  Looks like Mike Aviles is the compensation.  I'm alright with that.  Aviles was alright, but I don't think he was part of their future plans.  Hopefully Farrell can inject some life into that awful pitching staff of theirs.  Lester, Buccholz, and Bard all fared better when he was their pitching coach.  FWIW.

General consensus around Toronto is that the Blue Jays got completely hosed in this deal

Another rough outing for Carp' last night.

Aviles is a decent player.  There are actually some Red Sox fans who are upset because they got less from the Cubs (Chris Carpenter, not THAT Chris Carpenter) for Theo, then they gave for Farrell.  But, honestly I thought they'd have to give up more.  Especially after last season when the Blue Jays were asking for Buccholz.  Aviles is certainly a huge step down from that.  Plus, I don't think Aviles was a real part of their future plans.  He was a stopgap SS at best.  I actually expected more from him last season.  Not that he was bad, but I expected him to hit for a higher average. 

And to think, the Red Sox traded away Marco Scutaro so Aviles could take over at SS.  At the time, I applauded the trade because I thought the 2 were quite similar.  Well, it certainly doesn't appear that way right now.   

There's no guarantee he'd be performing this well though if he were still a sox and with the team they had this year it wouldn't have helped.

No guarantee, but he was one of the bright spots during the September 2011 collapse.

[Falcon]

Viewing heads up guys, Bobby V on Costas Tonight this evening on NBCSPORTS Network, calls Ortiz out big time.

Should be entertainng.

Speaking of Ortiz..

Just heard the Sox were on the verge of extending him at 2 for 25 mil - kinda thought they should throw the Papi out with the bathwater...

[tim_m]

Also today Guillen was fired by the Marlins. Not much surprise there.

[faldor]

Viewing heads up guys, Bobby V on Costas Tonight this evening on NBCSPORTS Network, calls Ortiz out big time.

Should be entertainng.

Speaking of Ortiz..

Just heard the Sox were on the verge of extending him at 2 for 25 mil - kinda thought they should throw the Papi out with the bathwater...

Bobby was kind of delicate with his comments on Ortiz.  Basically saying he may have been able to play if the Sox were in any sort of race but since they weren't he shut it down.  Which is basically what happened.  Of course, when I say it, it sounds a lot less inflammatory than coming from the man who was fired.

I thought they might be best to part ways with David too at a point in the season.  But after the trade, and after David shut it down for the season, the ineptitude of the Red Sox lineup reached epic proportions.  They're in need of a 1B, have a SS who might not be able to hit .200 at the big league lever, an OF that isn't exactly dripping with power.  In essence, they need Ortiz now more than ever.  Haven't heard the terms, but hopefully it's for less AAV.

[LongGoneDay]

Bringing back Ortiz is a no brainer. He's been a leader in the clubhouse since he got here, and is still among the elite hitters in MLB.
He was the best hitter on the planet last season before his injury. At 37 years old, probably isn't safe to assume the same production, but he's been proving a lot of people wrong for years now.
The only issue I can see, is why the 2 year deal all of a sudden, when they didn't think he was worth it last year, or two years ago? Probably could have signed him for one, but maybe they didn't want to risk letting him walk. I don't have a major problem with it.

Anyways, the main reason the Sox are in the position they find themselves, is because they've let proven commodities walk, and tried(and failed miserably) to replace them with unknowns.
Keep what works, fix what doesn't.

[faldor]

Bringing back Ortiz is a no brainer. He's been a leader in the clubhouse since he got here, and is still among the elite hitters in MLB.
He was the best hitter on the planet last season before his injury. At 37 years old, probably isn't safe to assume the same production, but he's been proving a lot of people wrong for years now.
The only issue I can see, is why the 2 year deal all of a sudden, when they didn't think he was worth it last year, or two years ago? Probably could have signed him for one, but maybe they didn't want to risk letting him walk. I don't have a major problem with it.

Anyways, the main reason the Sox are in the position they find themselves, is because they've let proven commodities walk, and tried(and failed miserably) to replace them with unknowns.
Keep what works, fix what doesn't.

I think the main reason they're where they are is because their pitcing sucks. Their offense hasn't taken a hit from parting ways Bay, Martinez, Scutaro, Youkilis etc. The offense was fine last year until Middlebrooks got hurt, then Ortiz got hurt, then they traded away Gonzalez. They have some holes in the lineup to fill now but I don't think they're that far off. Pitching is a whole other story. They need at least one more quality starter, andd they need to count on Lester bouncing back and Lackey coming back strong after TJ surgery. That's a lot of hoping. Their bullpen was pretty good last year for a portion of the season. Yes, they did miss Papelbon as Aceves did not prove to be a reliable closer. If Bailey could stay healthy, again a big IF, that would help soften the blow. Aside from Pap though, I can't think of any other pitchers they let go that they've regretted. Unless I'm forgetting some.

[LongGoneDay]

Bringing back Ortiz is a no brainer. He's been a leader in the clubhouse since he got here, and is still among the elite hitters in MLB.
He was the best hitter on the planet last season before his injury. At 37 years old, probably isn't safe to assume the same production, but he's been proving a lot of people wrong for years now.
The only issue I can see, is why the 2 year deal all of a sudden, when they didn't think he was worth it last year, or two years ago? Probably could have signed him for one, but maybe they didn't want to risk letting him walk. I don't have a major problem with it.

Anyways, the main reason the Sox are in the position they find themselves, is because they've let proven commodities walk, and tried(and failed miserably) to replace them with unknowns.
Keep what works, fix what doesn't.

I think the main reason they're where they are is because their pitcing sucks. Their offense hasn't taken a hit from parting ways Bay, Martinez, Scutaro, Youkilis etc. The offense was fine last year until Middlebrooks got hurt, then Ortiz got hurt, then they traded away Gonzalez. They have some holes in the lineup to fill now but I don't think they're that far off. Pitching is a whole other story. They need at least one more quality starter, andd they need to count on Lester bouncing back and Lackey coming back strong after TJ surgery. That's a lot of hoping. Their bullpen was pretty good last year for a portion of the season. Yes, they did miss Papelbon as Aceves did not prove to be a reliable closer. If Bailey could stay healthy, again a big IF, that would help soften the blow. Aside from Pap though, I can't think of any other pitchers they let go that they've regretted. Unless I'm forgetting some.

Well, hindsight is 20/20, but as I've harped on ad nauseum, I think moves they have made, and haven't made have influenced what they could do with their pitching staff.
Some of the people they let walk have had some misfortune of their own, since, so who knows how it would have worked out, but at the very least they wouldn't have been AS hamstrung by horrible contracts. Yes their offense was great, but that's over with now, and not easy to regain.

Bay and Martinez were middle of the order bats, proven capable of thriving in Boston. Obviously they have been hurt since leaving, but who knows if that would have happened had they stayed or not.
If they had, at least their contracts weren't as tragic as the brain dead signings of Crawford and Lackey. Martinez and Bay have proven to be fiercely loyal over their careers. I think Sox could have gotten them both to sign for less here had they opted to try. Even if we assume Bay had the concussions in a Boston uniform, and his production fell of the same cliff, how's 66 million sound as opposed to the 142 mill and 7 years it took to get similar results out of Crawford. It is nothing short of a miracle that there is a team out there that's the perfect amount of stupid, willing to absorb that albatross. 142 million for a player that's never once hit 20 HR in a season. A player who relies on his speed to be effective. Speed which will be diminishing, and probably long gone well before he reaches the back end of his contract. Someone was asleep at the wheel. He was never a fit here, healthy or not. He wasn't the OBP type player Theo usually coveted. The icing on the cake is that they outbid themselves by a long shot for his services, and set themselves up in a corner for the upcoming Jacoby contract.

Don't even get me started on Lackey. Anyone that thought he had a chance to be successful here, never watched him pitch. His stuff was never good enough to translate well in the AL East. Those stats he compiled were thanks to playing in an anemic offensive division. Yet they thought he was worth more money than any other pitcher on the roster. The best part is, I think even the Sox had to think the first couple years were the only time they might get some semblance of their money's worth. Good luck getting it now, 2 years older and coming off surgery.

Letting Pap walk, a proven commodity, and replacing him with an unknown in Bailey, who while he does have good stuff, had a history of being injury prone, and was coming from a pitcher friendly division. This year's injury aside, tough for me to get behind that deal.

I'll spare you the rest, but basically I'm just amazed that the Sox have abandoned the philosophy they had about long term deals since Theo came aboard. They tried to avoid going over 3-4 years for the most part. What is mind boggling to me is the guys they made the exceptions for. Did they really think that guys like Drew, Crawford, Lackey etc were can't miss free agents?
A couple deals as bad as those can cripple teams, even the high spending RedSox. Those deals, along with others ate up a lot of their resources that could have been used towards starting pitching.

Even still, tough to overcome Lester's dropoff. Beckett is maddeningly inconsistent, but has been his entire career. Bucholz probably has the same t-shirt size as his girlfriend, so durability will forever be an issue with him unless he bulks up. I never saw Lester as a true number one, but never thought he'd be as useless as he showed this season. Not many teams can overcome essentially losing the ace of their staff.

[GeorgeSteele]

Also today Guillen was fired by the Marlins. Not much surprise there.

My only surprise was that he had 3 years and $7.5M left on his contract.   Think it's safe to say they'll have a no-name manager on the cheap for the next 3 years. 

[LunsJail]

Also today Guillen was fired by the Marlins. Not much surprise there.

My only surprise was that he had 3 years and $7.5M left on his contract.   Think it's safe to say they'll have a no-name manager on the cheap for the next 3 years. 

Not smart to put that kind of money to him in the first place, but that franchise has been doing a lot of less than intelligent things since that new ballpark came in the picture. I think it was only a matter of time for Ozzie after the Castro comments.

[tim_m]

Pablo Sandovol!

[GeorgeSteele]

Am I the only one who didn't know until last night that Roberto Kelly is the Giants 1B coach?  That was disorienting.