2012 Baseball Season/Off-Season Discussion

[tim_m]

Derek Jeter with a 4 hit night has now tied Eddie Murray for 11th on the all time list with 3,255 hits. He is no doubt going to be 10th before this season ends.

I saw he scored like his 1800th run as well, that's just insane.

Yeah 1845 to be exact, he's moving up fast on that list too. I think it's pretty safe to assume he has a great shot at being first on the runs list when its all said and done. We are really having the pleasure of witnessing a true legend an all time great.

[faldor]

The Boston Red Sox soap opera gets worse. They have fired their pitching coach. Assistant pitching coach will take over.

I don't know if that qualifies as "worse".  More like inconsequential or irrelevant.  McClure and Bobby have been at odds with each other all season.  He, like many of the coaches on the staff, was not Valentine's choice.  Just illustrates how horribly this team was put together this season, from the top on down.  How many teams have an assistant pitching coach these days anyways?  I don't think it's a very popular position.  This will now be the 4th pitching coach they've had in the last 3 years and the pitching has gotten progressively worse each season.  I'll say this, obviously you can't pin the poor pitching this season on Bob McClure, or on Curt Young last season.  BUT, I will say, it can't be easy for the pitching staff to have a different pitching coach every season for 3 years straight.  Sure it's mostly up to the pitchers themselves, but having a different voice, different philosophy, no continuity, etc. can't be helping the situation.

[faldor]

That Boston/Valentine story was an entertaining read; I remember that Todd Hundley sleep story, very funny stuff (but I was not laughing at the time).

If history provides any context to the current situation, Valentine was also hated as soon as he came in with the Mets.  Hundley was the undisputed team leader and it seemed as though Valentine was out to change that immediately and he did, undermining Hundley with his trademark passive-aggression (and, by the way, I think there was a lot more than the Youkilis situation that triggered Pedroia's 'not the way we do things' comment).  Soon enough, they brought in Piazza (who loved Valentine), kicked Hundley to the curb and Valentine was the boss, which is the only way he'll have it. 

To his credit, once he took control, Bobby V had a very good run with the Mets.  5 straight winning seasons, a couple years in the playoffs, including a World Series appearance with a team fielding a starting outfield of Timo Perez, Jay Payton and Benny fucking Agbayani. 

I wouldn't disagree with that "brilliant baseball mind" comment, he's a very smart guy and a funny character as well, but he's also a ruthless, underhanded prick.  So, in the end, I don't buy the sympathetic tone of that story.  He is a control freak who is threatened by any players who have sway in the clubhouse.  He won't stop until he has full control (actually, he'll never stop) and this is all part of his game. 

You said it as well as I could.

He's good with X's and O's.

He's awful (and that's not just taken from his tenure with the Sox) in the clubhouse.  He's does not play nicely with others..especially others who have strong personalities/opinions.

They needed (and still need) someone who that clubhouse will respect, and who also can unite it.  Someone, like, say a former Cards manager who retired last year? Someone like that.

....and if I hear one more writer talk about the Sox injury woes, I'm going to scream.

Yes, they've had a lot of injuries.  Plenty of other teams (INCLUDING the Yanks, I might point out) have, too.

That's an excuse.

Beckett and Lester have been perfectly healthy...and dreadful.  The majority of their injuries have involved their production on OFFENSE...yet they seem to be OK when it comes to scoring runs, so the guys stepping in seem to have been effective.

STOP WHINING ABOUT INJURIES!!

I agree about the injuries being a lame excuse.  They have had more than their fair share, but as you said the offense has sustained most of the injuries and they've still scored plenty of runs.  Though I will say, this latest injury to David Ortiz has been the hardest for them to overcome.  They haven't been able to plug in anyone who comes anywhere close to the production that he gives them from that spot.  They've missed his bat big time of late and it's probably not a coincidence that they've dipped much further below .500 since he went on the DL.

That aside though, looking ahead.  I think there's two schools of thought on where the Red Sox go from here, well maybe 3.  First off, the rumor was when they signed Bobby V to a 2 year deal in the off-season that he probably wouldn't last past that unless he had a great 2 seasons.  They had/have their sights set on bringing back former pitching coach and current Blue Jay manager John Farrell to manage the team when his contract is up after 2013.  So if that's still their wish, they have a decision to make.  You can't go out and hire a manager for ONE year, to keep the seat warm for Farrell.  Nobody is going to sign on for that.  So either you have to go with plan B, and try to find the right guy (not Farrell) next year.  The list of candidates wasn't all that attractive this off-season and I can't imagine they'd be any better in the coming months. 

Is it inconceivable to do the unthinkable and bring Bobby back next season?  This time, let him hire his own guys to fill out his coaching staff.  Remember he wanted Bill Buckner as his bench coach?  Let the man have some say and try to do things his way.  It obviously isn't working this way.  And yeah, he'd be an even more lame duck manager on an even shorter leash.  But hey, if they get off to another bad start, then it's clear that Bobby isn't the answer for that ONE bridge year to Farrell.  Then you fire him mid-season, hire an interim manager and make a run at Farrell the next off-season.  Assuming of course Farrell would even be interested.  I know Joe Maddon's name was also floated around as a possibility for 2 years down the road before they hired Bobby, but I'm not sure if he re-upped with Tampa and I kind of doubt he'd want anything to do with managing in Boston at this point for obvious reasons.

So, as crazy as it sounds.  I wouldn't be shocked if Bobby survived after this dreadful season.  Then again, he could be fired the second it ends.  Either way, they need a lot of fixing.

[LongGoneDay]

The Boston Red Sox soap opera gets worse. They have fired their pitching coach. Assistant pitching coach will take over.

I don't know if that qualifies as "worse".  More like inconsequential or irrelevant.  McClure and Bobby have been at odds with each other all season.  He, like many of the coaches on the staff, was not Valentine's choice.  Just illustrates how horribly this team was put together this season, from the top on down.  How many teams have an assistant pitching coach these days anyways?  I don't think it's a very popular position.  This will now be the 4th pitching coach they've had in the last 3 years and the pitching has gotten progressively worse each season.  I'll say this, obviously you can't pin the poor pitching this season on Bob McClure, or on Curt Young last season.  BUT, I will say, it can't be easy for the pitching staff to have a different pitching coach every season for 3 years straight.  Sure it's mostly up to the pitchers themselves, but having a different voice, different philosophy, no continuity, etc. can't be helping the situation.

McClure's sister is my next door neighbor, and our families have been close since I was young. We were joking around about what a change in pace it's gonna be coming from Kansas City, where the fans probably don't know you exist, to Boston, where fans over analyze anything and everything you do. In KC, McClure was credited in turning Greinke's career around. In Boston, he just walked into a shit storm. Sucks he was fired, but I'm happy for him that he was spared any more of this train wreck.

[GeorgeSteele]

Victor Conte on how MLB players can easily circumvent steroids testing:

?It?s very, very easy. It?s like taking candy from a baby. They only test the players when they?re at the ballpark. Therefore, after a game, you can apply a testosterone cream or a gel or a patch, and this will peak at about four hours after you take it and be all the way back down to baseline about eight hours after. ? This helps with tissue repair and healing and recovery, so they just wait until after the game and apply it ? and they get the benefit of having that testosterone circulate and accelerate healing.?

http://sportsradiointerviews.com/2012/08/20/mlb-steroids-performance-enhancing-drugs-victor-conte/

[Falcon]

Oh the humanity, more Heyman - and I apologize for that.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/jon-heyman/19854569/word-is-swisher-may-invoke-the-126-million-werth-deal-in-contract-talks

[tim_m]

Oh the humanity, more Heyman - and I apologize for that.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/jon-heyman/19854569/word-is-swisher-may-invoke-the-126-million-werth-deal-in-contract-talks

No way in hell that happens. He's not worth that kinda money to anyone. He's a damn good ballplayer but not that good.

[tim_m]

Derek Jeter on the first pitch of the game hits a home run to left field moving him past Eddie Murray for 11th on the list and just 1,000 away from Pete Rose. Is Pete in trouble? I sure wouldn't put a damn thing past Derek Jeter.

[Falcon]

Derek Jeter on the first pitch of the game hits a home run to left field moving him past Eddie Murray for 11th on the list and just 1,000 away from Pete Rose. Is Pete in trouble? I sure wouldn't put a damn thing past Derek Jeter.

I'd love to see Jeter (or anyone for that matter) make a run at Rose but I don't think he'll stick around as long as it would take to do so.

Hell, at the rate Trout's going he'll pass Pete the last week of September.

[tim_m]

Derek Jeter on the first pitch of the game hits a home run to left field moving him past Eddie Murray for 11th on the list and just 1,000 away from Pete Rose. Is Pete in trouble? I sure wouldn't put a damn thing past Derek Jeter.

I'd love to see Jeter (or anyone for that matter) make a run at Rose but I don't think he'll stick around as long as it would take to do so.

Hell, at the rate Trout's going he'll pass Pete the last week of September.

Maybe not, but i think everyone not named Rose or Cobb is in serious danger of being caught by Jeter. We'll just have to see how long he wants to stick around.

[pilferk]

Oh the humanity, more Heyman - and I apologize for that.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/jon-heyman/19854569/word-is-swisher-may-invoke-the-126-million-werth-deal-in-contract-talks

A) No he's not. Heyman asked a question, Swish (as he usually will) answered it and had some fun.

B) Even if Swish was entertaining the thought, he wouldn't get it.  The Werth deal is widely regarded by every owner and GM not in DC as a HORRIBLE deal.  Unless the Nats decide they want to make ANOTHER long term bad deal....you won't find any takers  Swish will likely get in the neighborhood of 12 to 15 per, off the back of his last 2 seasons.  If ANY player on the planet would give the NYY a "hometown discount", it might be Swish (who's quirky, loves NYC, and who's wife is an actress who really needs to be in NYC and/or LA).

C) Swish is likely not going to be a Yank past this year.  Which is unfortunate.  Were I running the Yanks, I'd sign Swish and Cano, let Granderson walk, install Gardner in center, and go looking for someone to play left (or a platoon of "someones").  But the Yanks seem determined to slip in under 189 million AND keep both Cano and Granderson.  I'm not sure HOW they plan to do that...but they do.

[pilferk]

Derek Jeter on the first pitch of the game hits a home run to left field moving him past Eddie Murray for 11th on the list and just 1,000 away from Pete Rose. Is Pete in trouble? I sure wouldn't put a damn thing past Derek Jeter.

I'd love to see Jeter (or anyone for that matter) make a run at Rose but I don't think he'll stick around as long as it would take to do so.

Hell, at the rate Trout's going he'll pass Pete the last week of September.

I was listening to something, yesterday, and they were talking about this.  They said if Jeter averages 175 hits per year, over this contract (so next year and the year after), he'd end up right around 4th place.  Quite a bit better (200-ish) and he'd end up in 3rd.

Getting to 2nd (or 1st) would basically require another contract (probably 4 years) at similar production.  That, or he'd have to hit close to .500 over the next 3 years (figuring around 630 plate appearances a year). 

Both of those seem like tall orders.

Does everyone agree, though, that Jeter is almost certainly (at this point) a sure fire first ballot HOF'er?

[GeorgeSteele]

Derek Jeter on the first pitch of the game hits a home run to left field moving him past Eddie Murray for 11th on the list and just 1,000 away from Pete Rose. Is Pete in trouble? I sure wouldn't put a damn thing past Derek Jeter.

I'd love to see Jeter (or anyone for that matter) make a run at Rose but I don't think he'll stick around as long as it would take to do so.

Hell, at the rate Trout's going he'll pass Pete the last week of September.

I was listening to something, yesterday, and they were talking about this.  They said if Jeter averages 175 hits per year, over this contract (so next year and the year after), he'd end up right around 4th place.  Quite a bit better (200-ish) and he'd end up in 3rd.

Getting to 2nd (or 1st) would basically require another contract (probably 4 years) at similar production.  That, or he'd have to hit close to .500 over the next 3 years (figuring around 630 plate appearances a year). 

Both of those seem like tall orders.

Does everyone agree, though, that Jeter is almost certainly (at this point) a sure fire first ballot HOF'er?

Without question.  Who had a better career at shortstop? Only others in his class are Honus Wagner (ancient era), A-Rod (steroids, will have more games at 3rd base), and Cal Ripken, who was not as good a hitter as Jeter (.788 career OPS to Jeter's .831).

I read an article this weekend on Jeter's prospects on catching Rose.  In it, Rose admitted to checking Jeter's box score every day and is in fact starting to get nervous.

On your other post, out of curiosity, why Swisher over Granderson?

[pilferk]

On your other post, out of curiosity, why Swisher over Granderson?

Mostly? Price.

IF the Yanks are going to keep Cano (which they will), I don't see how you keep Granderson, too...and still have any money to fill in the other roster spots if you're sticking to the 189 million payroll they're insisting they're going to hit.

IF you keep Cano, and sign Swisher (who will be a LOT cheaper than Grandeson will, I think), you've got more money left on the table to fill in.  I'm guessing there will be a 3 to 6 million difference, annually, between the two players.   And the downgrade, in terms of offensive production, isn't THAT huge. 

And the Yanks have a natural center fielder on their roster, already, in Gardner.  I'd also argue that Gardner, in center, isn't much (if at all) of a downgrade defensively. So you're not looking for a marquee center fielder to replace Granderson..you're looking for a decent bat (or bats) to play left.  Sort of like they've done with Ibanez/Jones this year.  You're probably not going to find someone to 100% replace his production..but you're going to spend a LOT less, too.

Now, add to the fact:

A) Granderson strikes out, a LOT.  A REAL LOT.  It's gotten worse this year, but it's not exclusive to this year.  Strike outs, in this lineup, are KILLERS. Yes, he'll hit 40 HR's.  But this lineup has power in abundance.  The loss of Granderson's power wouldn't, I don't think, hurt as much.  I'd be happier with a productive Suzuki in left, frankly...with Gardner in center and Swish in right...especially at the prices we're talking about.

B) Swish is a switch hitter.  In this lineup, that really helps.  Grandy has hit lefties better, since coming to the Yanks....for sure.  But I think Swish in the lineup really helps.

C) If you look at the stats, other than the discrepancy in HR's and RBI's...the two players have had pretty similar years in 2011 and 2012.

2011 Swish: .260 BA, 125 SO's, .374 OB%, .449 SLG%, .822 OPS
2011 Grandy: .262 BA, 169 SO's, 364 OB%, .552 SLG%, .916 OPS

2012 Swish: .270 BA, 102 SO's, .355 OB%, .480 SLG%, .834 OPS
2012 Grandy: .241 BA, 150 SO's, .335 OB%, .491 SLG%, .828 OPS

Grandy was MUCH better in 2011, and is not really that much better in 2012. At least on offense.  And Swish has done a better job on defense this year, too.

D) I think Swish brings some intangibles to that Yankee clubhouse that might be undervalued, all things considered.

To me, I'd take the player who costs a LOT less, given the above.

[pilferk]

Bartolo Colon being suspended for 50 games for violation of MLB drug policy.  He reportedly tested positive for testosterone.

[tim_m]

Derek Jeter on the first pitch of the game hits a home run to left field moving him past Eddie Murray for 11th on the list and just 1,000 away from Pete Rose. Is Pete in trouble? I sure wouldn't put a damn thing past Derek Jeter.

I'd love to see Jeter (or anyone for that matter) make a run at Rose but I don't think he'll stick around as long as it would take to do so.

Hell, at the rate Trout's going he'll pass Pete the last week of September.

I was listening to something, yesterday, and they were talking about this.  They said if Jeter averages 175 hits per year, over this contract (so next year and the year after), he'd end up right around 4th place.  Quite a bit better (200-ish) and he'd end up in 3rd.

Getting to 2nd (or 1st) would basically require another contract (probably 4 years) at similar production.  That, or he'd have to hit close to .500 over the next 3 years (figuring around 630 plate appearances a year). 

Both of those seem like tall orders.

Does everyone agree, though, that Jeter is almost certainly (at this point) a sure fire first ballot HOF'er?

I think third on the list all time is quite realistic. To get higher he'll have to stick around longer obviously. Will he want to? Time will tell. Also, don't forget he has an excellent chance to be first in runs scored before his career is done. He's less than 450 away from the great Ricky Henderson.

Absolutely no doubt in my mind. He's first ballot.

[tim_m]

Oh the humanity, more Heyman - and I apologize for that.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/jon-heyman/19854569/word-is-swisher-may-invoke-the-126-million-werth-deal-in-contract-talks

A) No he's not. Heyman asked a question, Swish (as he usually will) answered it and had some fun.

B) Even if Swish was entertaining the thought, he wouldn't get it.  The Werth deal is widely regarded by every owner and GM not in DC as a HORRIBLE deal.  Unless the Nats decide they want to make ANOTHER long term bad deal....you won't find any takers  Swish will likely get in the neighborhood of 12 to 15 per, off the back of his last 2 seasons.  If ANY player on the planet would give the NYY a "hometown discount", it might be Swish (who's quirky, loves NYC, and who's wife is an actress who really needs to be in NYC and/or LA).

C) Swish is likely not going to be a Yank past this year.  Which is unfortunate.  Were I running the Yanks, I'd sign Swish and Cano, let Granderson walk, install Gardner in center, and go looking for someone to play left (or a platoon of "someones").  But the Yanks seem determined to slip in under 189 million AND keep both Cano and Granderson.  I'm not sure HOW they plan to do that...but they do.

I agree, i'd hate to see Swish leave. He's obviously very happy here. I disagree about Grandy though.

[tim_m]

Bartolo Colon being suspended for 50 games for violation of MLB drug policy.  He reportedly tested positive for testosterone.

What's with everyone thinking they won't get caught with testosterone lately?

[Falcon]

Bartolo Colon being suspended for 50 games for violation of MLB drug policy.  He reportedly tested positive for testosterone.

What's with everyone thinking they won't get caught with testosterone lately?

No clue, MLB has debunked the latest masking agent.

If MLB had any sense, they'd hire Victor Conte (Balco Founder) as their lead PED investigator - he's probably the foremost expert on the subject on the planet and would no doubt strike the fear of God into users.

[Falcon]

Does everyone agree, though, that Jeter is almost certainly (at this point) a sure fire first ballot HOF'er?

For sure.