2012 Baseball Season/Off-Season Discussion

[faldor]

Nice debut so far by the Mets prospect Harvey this evening in Arizona, great stuff.

Didn't watch any of the game, but just looking at the stats.  11 K's certainly ain't too shabby for a debut.  Not a very high percentage of strikes though.  Was he effectively wild?  They could certainly use a boost.  I believe they only have one win since the break.  Worse than the Red Sox at this point, and they're in shambles.

I wouldn't say they're in shambles, this recent losing streak is just a regression to the mean for a team that way outperformed its talent in the 1st half.  They were not ready to contend this season and most fans knew that given that they cut payroll by about $50M this year.  Basically, they have 1 star position player and then 2, maybe 3, other guys you would say are good.  The rest are below average.  As for pitching, the starters are good, but they too have overachieved so far (I love RA Dickey, but Cy Young candidate, c'mon).  That fucking bullpen... better I say nothing.

for the record, I said the Red Sox were in shambles, not the Mets. But the Mets do have the worst record since the break, aside from maybe the Astros.

[GeorgeSteele]

Nice debut so far by the Mets prospect Harvey this evening in Arizona, great stuff.

Didn't watch any of the game, but just looking at the stats.  11 K's certainly ain't too shabby for a debut.  Not a very high percentage of strikes though.  Was he effectively wild?  They could certainly use a boost.  I believe they only have one win since the break.  Worse than the Red Sox at this point, and they're in shambles.

I wouldn't say they're in shambles, this recent losing streak is just a regression to the mean for a team that way outperformed its talent in the 1st half.  They were not ready to contend this season and most fans knew that given that they cut payroll by about $50M this year.  Basically, they have 1 star position player and then 2, maybe 3, other guys you would say are good.  The rest are below average.  As for pitching, the starters are good, but they too have overachieved so far (I love RA Dickey, but Cy Young candidate, c'mon).  That fucking bullpen... better I say nothing.

for the record, I said the Red Sox were in shambles, not the Mets. But the Mets do have the worst record since the break, aside from maybe the Astros.

Oops, sorry brutha!  Boston's record is actually not bad given how terrible the starting pitchers have been.

EDIT:  Major crisis going on in Boston right now:  http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1061149033

[faldor]

Nice debut so far by the Mets prospect Harvey this evening in Arizona, great stuff.

Didn't watch any of the game, but just looking at the stats.  11 K's certainly ain't too shabby for a debut.  Not a very high percentage of strikes though.  Was he effectively wild?  They could certainly use a boost.  I believe they only have one win since the break.  Worse than the Red Sox at this point, and they're in shambles.

I wouldn't say they're in shambles, this recent losing streak is just a regression to the mean for a team that way outperformed its talent in the 1st half.  They were not ready to contend this season and most fans knew that given that they cut payroll by about $50M this year.  Basically, they have 1 star position player and then 2, maybe 3, other guys you would say are good.  The rest are below average.  As for pitching, the starters are good, but they too have overachieved so far (I love RA Dickey, but Cy Young candidate, c'mon).  That fucking bullpen... better I say nothing.

for the record, I said the Red Sox were in shambles, not the Mets. But the Mets do have the worst record since the break, aside from maybe the Astros.

Oops, sorry brutha!  Boston's record is actually not bad given how terrible the starting pitchers have been.

EDIT:  Major crisis going on in Boston right now:  http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1061149033

See, the team is falling apart.  Nobody is safe, not even the mascot.  Jon Lester has been beyond awful of late.  Josh Beckett has been better, but he's still giving up 3-5 runs per outing on average.  Their best pitcher has been Clay Buchholz and Aaron Cook has done well too, but I can't imagine that will last.  Their offense is inconsistent.  They feast off of bad pitching and score runs in bunches, but struggle against good pitchers.  And of late, mediocre pitchers have stifled them as well.  Carl Crawford got off to a decent start, but has reverted to his hapless form of last season.  He gets pulled from games in the 7th inning for defensive purposes when they could easily use him as DH since Ortiz is out.  Go figure that one out.  And they square off with the Yankees this weekend after losing 2 of 3 to the Rangers.  And then they play the resurgent Tigers.  So yeah, they are NOT in a good spot right now.  I still don't see any team running away with that last wild card slot though, unless the A's really are legit.

[Falcon]

faldor, how is Theo perceived in Boston these days?

[Falcon]

Greinke to Angels...

From Ken Rosenthal:

Brewers getting shortstop Jean Segura and two Double A pitchers from Angels for Greinke. "Finishing touches" being applied. Deal is done.

[tim_m]

Does this make the Angels the best team at this point in the west?

[Falcon]

Does this make the Angels the best team at this point in the west?

No idea here, gotta see how Greinke does outside of his comfy zone - he's one odd cat.

Beyond the division race, I think the Halo's may be built for a deep playoff run however they get in.

[tim_m]

You gotta worry about the Rangers i think with all their pitching woes due to injury.

[Falcon]

You gotta worry about the Rangers i think with all their pitching woes due to injury.

Apparently they could've landed Greinke if they'd included Mike Olt but they wouldn't do so, I still think they could make a play for Josh Johnson but will have to up the ante big time.

[tim_m]

You gotta worry about the Rangers i think with all their pitching woes due to injury.

Apparently they could've landed Greinke if they'd included Mike Olt but they wouldn't do so, I still think they could make a play for Josh Johnson but will have to up the ante big time.

We'll see what happens in the next few days. I personally think they'll try and get by with what they have. I'm not sure it'll be enough, both the A's and Angels got within 4.5 tonight.

[faldor]

faldor, how is Theo perceived in Boston these days?

Right now, he's not perceived very well.  He left the team a mess with his horrendous big ticket free agent signings.  It may take them years to recover from those financially.  At the same time, he recently went on a media tour and told everyone that his hands were tied and he felt he had to "feed the monster" and that's why they spent money so haphazardly.  Way to pass the blame on others.

On the whole he will be remembered as a brilliant GM who brought Boston their first World Series in 86 years and a 2nd 3 years later.  But right now, he's not viewed very fondly.

And on a more negative note, some will argue that the first World Series was won with mostly a roster that was built by Dan Duquette and previous GM's before Theo got there.  He inherited a very good team and made some very minor, yet brilliant moves to fill out the roster.

[pilferk]

We'll just have to see what happens. Hopefully Chavez will be ok. If not i guess it'll be Nyx and Pena's job until Alex is back.

And....he's hurt.  Plunked last night by a pitch.  Apparently it stiffened up on him during and after the game.

Nix probably would have played today, and maybe tomorrow, anyway.  Hopefully that will give Chavez enough time.  We'll see.

[Falcon]

More bizzarro activity in Bobby V land today concerning Carl Crawford.

The hits keep comin'...

http://www.csnne.com/baseball-boston-redsox/redsox-talk/Crawford-embarrassed-by-four-day-program?blockID=747757&feedID=3352

[Falcon]

Ken Rosenthal is tweeting Headley maybe an option for the Yanks although the Yanks fearing price might be too high.

Do the Yanks have anything left on the farm that would interest the Padres? 

I believe Headley is under control for another year so it would seem that they would have to be absolutely overwhelmed by an offer, it's not like San Diego won't be able to afford him anyway with the new ownership.

EDIT:

Rosenthal is reporting that Orioles, Indians, Pirates and Athletics also in pursuit of Headley so it's bound to get interesting.

[tim_m]

I'm sure we do. Our farm system is a lot better then its been in a long time.

[LongGoneDay]

faldor, how is Theo perceived in Boston these days?

Right now, he's not perceived very well.  He left the team a mess with his horrendous big ticket free agent signings.  It may take them years to recover from those financially.  At the same time, he recently went on a media tour and told everyone that his hands were tied and he felt he had to "feed the monster" and that's why they spent money so haphazardly.  Way to pass the blame on others.

On the whole he will be remembered as a brilliant GM who brought Boston their first World Series in 86 years and a 2nd 3 years later.  But right now, he's not viewed very fondly.

And on a more negative note, some will argue that the first World Series was won with mostly a roster that was built by Dan Duquette and previous GM's before Theo got there.  He inherited a very good team and made some very minor, yet brilliant moves to fill out the roster.

Epstein seemed to go into a coma towards the end here, but make no mistake, he had a brilliant run. The Duquette regime did not build a World Series championship roster. It was a good start, but w/o Theo's moves, we are looking at an 100+ year drought.

Sox don't win w/o Curt Schilling, David Ortiz(really I could stop here), Dave Roberts, Orlando Cabrera, Kevin Millar, Bill Mueller, Keith Foulke.

Trading Nomar, one the most popular players in Red Sox history for relatively unknown players(Roberts, OC, Mientkiewicz) was a ballsy move most GMs don't pull the trigger on, and if he doesn't, Sox don't win the ship in '04.

He wasn't officially the GM at the time, but it's rumored he was very much involved in bringing Beckett and Lowell here for Hanley. None of those guys are worth writing home about today, but Sox don't make it past Cleveland in '07 if Beckett doesn't have one of the more dominant series in recent history.

Adrian Gonzalez, Beltre, V-Mart were great pickups.

Getting Jason Bay for Manny when the entire league knew we would give him away for a pack of gum was pretty impressive.

He certainly had his hand in both titles here, and for a championship starved team that Boston was at he time were, can't ask for much more than that.

Certainly had is doozies. Drew, Lugo, Dice-K, Lackey, Crawford, Gagne, Renteria, Clement. Letting V-Mart and Jay Bay walk. Letting Damon walk, and thinking Coco was gonna be a suitable replacement. Though injuries didn't help him, and at least Sox didn't give up much. My biggest issue with him was that, for the most part, he stayed away from long term deals. Why the fuck did he decide to break his own rule for guys like JD Drew, Lackey, and Crawford? Lackey was gonna be a bust before he put on a uniform. That soft stuff doesn't fly in the AL East. He was feasting on AAA lineups out West. You pay him ace money for 5 years? wtf. Let Bay, a proven clutch hitter, who likes raking bombs walk and then sign Crawford for 7 fucking years? A guy who goes against all the OBP criteria that his normal targets have. A guy who relies on his speed, which he's probably not gonna have when he's 1,000 years old at the end of his contract. I know they print money, but these bad long term deals add up.
Drew? Eh, at least he was good defensively. I still don't know how you have a swing that pretty and never truly put it together. Bad gamble though. Everyone but Theo knew it.

Anyways, Theo will be remembered as a great GM, because he did what most GMs couldn't do here, win. He didn't do it by throwing money at the big free agents either. He did it through creative signings and ballsy trades. The free agent thing clearly wasn't his strong suit. Someone should have reminded him.

I have a bigger issue with Cherington, but I'll give him a break since it's year one.
I'm curious to see what they do in the offseason. Three years with no playoff appearances should be telling them something, but clearly someones asleep at the wheel...

[faldor]

Theo was great with his lower budget free agent signings and trades.  Without the deals he made early on they would not have won the World Series.  I agree.  BUT, his big ticket free agent signings towards the end of his reign have set the franchise back multiple years.  We'll see when they can rebound and become a legit contender again.  The franchise is a MESS right now, and he had a major hand in that.  So I don't think you can just focus on the good, especially when there's so much bad in the present. 

And the Carl Crawford situation is perplexing to say the least.  Yet another example of poor communication.  How can one organization be so hard to understand?  They say one thing, do another, and give an excuse that doesn't equate to either what was said or done. 

1) Carl can't play 4 days in a row. 

But he played 6 games in a row when he came back. 

2) That was a manager's mistake. 

But didn't the team just have a day off on Thursday, therefore Carl wouldn't be playing 4 days in a row 

3) Well, Carl hasn't hit lefties very well. 

Well neither has Daniel Nava, who replaced Crawford in the lineup. 

4) We want to protect Carl and prevent injuries to his elbow so we'll take him out for defensive purposes in the 7th inning of games. 

Why not just DH him then since regular DH, Ortiz is on the DL? 

5) Carl will most likely eventually need TJ surgery.  Even Carl himself has said that IF the Sox fall out of the race that it would probably be best to get the surgery ASAP, otherwise he expects to one day just throw his arm out which in turn would make the surgery a necessity.

A couple things here.  I think the Sox ARE out of it.  I mean, even if they somehow sneak in and get that last wild card, they are no match for the elite teams in the AL.  And I say that for ALL the teams that are in contention for that last wild card.  I'd be shocked if the Tigers, Yankees, Rangers, or Angels aren't representing the AL in the World Series in October.  So give it up.  You're done.  Either get the surgery NOW and look towards next season.  OR, let the guy play.  Let the guy hit 2nd in the order for more than 5 games.  The instance the guy goes 0-12, he's dropped in the order.  Let him work it out so you can see how he responds.  Stop dicking the guy around.  He's fragile enough.  If you want to give the guy a day off every once in awhile, fine.  But taking him out in the 7th inning, not playing 4 straight GAMES, hitting him 7th one day and second the next.  This stuff is ridiculous.  DH the guy till Ortiz comes back, at least against righties.  It's frustrating the way they're obviously MIShandling this situation.

[faldor]

Worth a gamble.  Doesn't sound like the White Sox gave up too much.  If Liriano can have a Youkilis like impact, other teams might want to stop giving away players to the Chi-Sox.  I realize Liriano has been inconsistent and disappointing since coming back from injury after his promising rookie campaign.  So he may continue on that trend and not make much of an impact.  Worth the risk though.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/07/white-sox-acquire-francisco-liriano.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

White Sox Acquire Francisco Liriano
By Mike Axisa [July 28, 2012 at 10:01pm CST]

The White Sox tried hard to land Zack Greinke before he went to the Angels, so they instead turned to a familiar foe to shore up the rotation. The team announced that they have acquired Francisco Liriano from the Twins for infielder Eduardo Escobar and left-hander Pedro Hernandez.

Liriano, 28, has been a prominent member of the trade rumor circuit for several years now. He's eligible for free agency after the season and is owed approximately $2.1MM for the remainder of the year. Injuries and inconsistency have dogged the left-hander throughout his career, and this year he's pitched to a 5.31 ERA in exactly 100 innings.

The Twins originally acquired Liriano from the Giants as a minor leaguer as part of the A.J. Pierzynski-Joe Nathan swap back in 2003. He placed third in the Rookie of the Year voting in 2006 and earned Cy Young Award votes in 2010, but he's pitched to a 5.18 ERA in 234 1/3 innings since. Liriano went from the rotation to the bullpen and back to the rotation this year, posting a 3.68 ERA in 11 starts since becoming a starter again.

The White Sox are adding one of the game's premier strikeout pitchers to their staff with the trade. Even during his down years, Liriano has always missed bats and he owns a 9.8 K/9 this season. Walks are an issue however, especially of late. Over the last two years he's walked five hitters for every nine innings pitched. He figures to join Chris Sale and Jose Quintana to make three lefties in the ChiSox rotation.

Escobar, 23, has hit .202/.276/.247 in 99 plate appearances over the last two seasons while playing second, third, short, and left field. He's a .270/.315/.351 career hitter in the minors, and before the season Baseball America ranked him as Chicago's tenth best prospect in their Prospect Handbook. "While Escobar has quick hands at the plate, he has yet to develop the strength or discipline to be an effective hitter," wrote the publication.

Hernandez, 23, allowed eight runs in four innings in his first career big league start earlier this season. He's pitched to a 2.94 ERA in 85 2/3 innings split between Double-A and Triple-A this year. Baseball America did not consider him one of the team's top 30 prospects coming into 2012. Both Hernandez and Escobar have been assigned to Triple-A Rochester, the Twins announced. A corresponding 40-man roster move will be made tomorrow.

[faldor]

More on the mess that is the Boston Red Sox

http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/8210174/bobby-valentine-leadership-boston-red-sox-working

Bobby V's Sox boxed in on all sides

NEW YORK -- It doesn't matter, at this stage of a misbegotten season, who is at fault. But on a day that the former manager held court in the clubhouse like it still belonged to him, while the current manager publicly gave a confusing and contradictory account of why his star left fielder wasn't playing, can everybody agree that this isn't working?

That the Bobby Valentine era never really had a chance to work, considering the forced circumstances of its birth and the fact he has not yet been able to field the team he thought he would have when the season began?

The cracks that showed up earlier this season appear on the verge of breaking wide open. A half-dozen players showed more affection early Saturday afternoon for Terry Francona, who sat in a semicircle with a group that included Dustin Pedroia, David Ortiz and Jarrod Saltalamacchia, than Valentine has seen in the five months since he first put on a Sox uniform.

"It looks like he's holding chapel," said a major league employee who has been in clubhouses for 35 years and said he has never witnessed such a scene involving an ex-manager.

Francona, an analyst for ESPN's "Sunday Night Baseball," privately vowed in spring training that he would avoid the Sox clubhouse because it is no longer his domain. He has made cameo appearances on previous assignments, but nothing like what happened here Saturday, when Pedroia invited him to take a seat, and one by one, other players joined them. How did that look for Valentine? Evidently Francona was past caring -- he gave a bear hug to bullpen coach Gary Tuck, who ignores Valentine -- and so, it would seem, are the players.

Valentine made light of Francona's pregame appearance. "Hey, we won," Valentine said following Boston's 8-6 victory Saturday night. "He got 'em ready."

Pedroia heads the list of players who believe Francona was unfairly scapegoated for last September's collapse, and while Pedroia, Ortiz and others have said they have no issue with his successor, the results scream otherwise. The team has not responded to Valentine, who came saddled with a reputation for being in the center of dustups and has not disappointed, clashing with coaches, players and medical staff here.

Valentine has argued to the contrary, saying he can find no fault with the team's effort.

Injuries? Pedroia pointedly said Friday that injuries are an excuse, and the Yankees' example would suggest he is right: The Bombers have had significant injuries to Mariano Rivera, Brett Gardner, Michael Pineda, David Robertson, Andy Pettitte, Alex Rodriguez and half their bullpen and are running away with the American League East. The Red Sox, meanwhile, are merely running out of time.

During a pregame media session Saturday that at times bordered on bizarre, Valentine said that the reason Carl Crawford wasn't playing was because he was on a "four-day program" in which he played four days, then sat one. Really? Crawford previously played in six straight games before he was given a day off, last Sunday against Toronto.

Valentine explained that away by saying he bucked orders from the medical staff.

"Actually, I did a manager 'no-no' thing, you know," Valentine said. "I went against what I was told to do. Never to be done again.

"They told me before the game [July 20 against the Blue Jays] he wasn't playing and I did the old 'veto power' -- 'Who says he's not playing?' -- and I played him."

The session took its odd turn when Valentine was asked if it was fair to say he wasn't wild about the four-day plan.

"Yeah, I'm wild," he said. "I'm not wild," he said in the next breath, punctuating with a few sound effects evidently intended to convey his impression of "wild."

What is truly peculiar is that the plan would be implemented Saturday, when Crawford had already had a day off with the rest of the team Thursday, hit a home run Friday and had good career numbers (.319 average) against Yankees starter CC Sabathia.

Crawford said he felt fine. He said he felt "embarrassed" that it looked like he was ducking Sabathia. "I'm still trying to figure this out like you are," he said. He remains confused, he said, about a timetable for the Tommy John surgery he insists he will need, which the team disputes. Don't be surprised, especially if the team continues to flounder, should Crawford decide in the next 10 days to have the operation.

A team source, however, said that Crawford knew about the four-day plan, and it was Crawford, not the medical staff, who told Valentine he wasn't playing July 20 against Toronto. And Valentine responded that yes, he was, and he did.

The first-year general manager, Ben Cherington, is approaching his first trading deadline with little realistic hope of making the "bold" move CEO Larry Lucchino said he was empowered to make. The biggest moves he could make -- trading Lester or Jacoby Ellsbury -- he will not make, because he is opposed to blowing the team up. He doesn't want to move prime prospects, the price he would have to pay for another front-line starting pitcher, especially when the Sox have so much money already invested in veteran arms.

Valentine still publicly professes confidence in his team, predicting that it still hasn't gone on a hot streak and will. Pedroia praises the talent, makeup and work ethic of this roster. "We have a great team," he insists.

Majority owner John W. Henry has so far not responded to questions of how he views this team and whether he believes it is responding to Valentine's leadership.

"There is abundant talent on this team," chairman Tom Werner wrote in an email, responding to the same questions posed to Henry. "No one including the players is happy with the way we have played. Beyond that I am not getting into specifics this afternoon."

But if this is such a great team with so much talent, why the mediocre play? When Valentine was first hired, the prediction here was that his success would be predicated on the bond of trust he was able to create with his players and staff. That hasn't happened. Lucchino will not authorize firing Valentine because it would be admitting a mistake. The Sox did Valentine no favors by not allowing him to pick his own coaches. Cherington is caught in the middle. The players may yet set aside their differences with the manager and pull a reverse of last September.

But can we all agree this isn't working?

[cotis]

got free tickets for tonight's Sox vs. Yanks game... heading there in a little bit!