2012 Baseball Season/Off-Season Discussion

[Falcon]

A movie about the life of Josh Hamilton has been scripted. Give me a fucking break.

Maybe a lil soon for that one for sure.

His book is fascinating though, a great read.

[tim_m]

A movie about the life of Josh Hamilton has been scripted. Give me a fucking break.

Maybe a lil soon for that one for sure.

His book is fascinating though, a great read.

I mean c'mon, he's not the first person or athlete to struggle with addiction.

[Falcon]

A movie about the life of Josh Hamilton has been scripted. Give me a fucking break.

Maybe a lil soon for that one for sure.

His book is fascinating though, a great read.

I mean c'mon, he's not the first person or athlete to struggle with addiction.

Nor is he the first to write a book and recount his troubles, but it's still a good story that's still unfolding.

[Falcon]

Darryl Kile died 10 years ago today, I remember like it was yesterday.

MLB Net just ran a snippet of a documentary on DK's death that will air July 12 with perspective from all that were there.

Maybe Joe Girardi's finest moment on a baseball field - pure class.

Here's the above mentioned snippet - alot of behind the scenes stuff with Girardi, Buck etc..

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=22486941&topic_id=7417714&c_id=mlb&tcid=vpp_copy_22486941&v=3

[tim_m]

A movie about the life of Josh Hamilton has been scripted. Give me a fucking break.

Maybe a lil soon for that one for sure.

His book is fascinating though, a great read.

I mean c'mon, he's not the first person or athlete to struggle with addiction.

Nor is he the first to write a book and recount his troubles, but it's still a good story that's still unfolding.

It is but i think a movie is still a bit much.

[tim_m]

Sox trade Youkilis to the sox for Brent Lillibridge and Zach Stewart.

[pilferk]

Sox trade Youkilis to the sox for Brent Lillibridge and Zach Stewart.

I never thought I'd see the day.

As a Yanks fan, I'm ecstatic.  Youk (as much as I disliked him) was a Yankee killer and was always a tough AB for our pitchers.

I know the Sox are enamored of Millbrooks, and the kid looks like a solid addition..but the way that organization treated Youk (and specifically the way Bobby V treated him) is deplorable.

[faldor]

Sox trade Youkilis to the sox for Brent Lillibridge and Zach Stewart.

I never thought I'd see the day.

As a Yanks fan, I'm ecstatic.  Youk (as much as I disliked him) was a Yankee killer and was always a tough AB for our pitchers.

I know the Sox are enamored of Millbrooks, and the kid looks like a solid addition..but the way that organization treated Youk (and specifically the way Bobby V treated him) is deplorable.

I don't think the organization treated him badly.  Cherrington time and again stuck up for Youkilis and said he was the starting 3B.  Middlebrooks outstanding play made that an impossibility though.  The Red Sox have had some messy divorces in the past with high profile players.  And while this one was getting messy, I think they cut it off before it really got there.  We'll see if the "smear campaign" begins, as it often does.  Bobby V you could certainly make an argument for treating Kevin not so well.  He tried his best to make up for it yesterday by lifting Youk for a pinch runner in the 7th so the crowd and his teammates could show their appreciation for him.  It was a nice move I thought.  The problem with Bobby V it seems, is he is a terrible communicator.  I don't know if that's by design or what.  But he tells the media one thing, such as telling Youkilis that he wouldn't be playing much anymore.  Then the media comes to Youk with the story and he says that it's news to him.  And this has happened on a number of occasions.  It's weird.

I have to say though, I've been impressed with Bobby's ON THE FIELD work.  He has turned that mess of a bullpen into a strength.  He has gotten the most out of the 20 something OF combinations and 14 or so OF's he's had to use.  Now obviously you have to give credit to the players themselves who have been in those roles, but I think Bobby has done a nice job.

Anyway, it was time for Youk to go.  There was just no position for him anymore.  Middlebrooks leads all rookies in RBI and has 9 HR's.  There was no reason to send him back to Pawtucket to let Youkilis figure it out.  Middlebrooks has been their second best hitter this year behind Ortiz, so it didn't make sense playing him only 3-4 times a week.  The best argument for Youkilis would've actually been to platoon with Adrian Gonzalez at 1B, because Adrian has not been good offensively.  But there's no way they were about to go that route.  So they really had no option but to trade Youk.  And since every team knew that, they got very little in return.  I expect Kevin to play much better now that he'll get consistent playing time and I hope nothing but the best for him.  The strange thing is, the White Sox and Red Sox might be battling for that last wild card slot down the stretch.  And this trade should make the White Sox a lot better.

[pilferk]

]I don't think the organization treated him badly.  Cherrington time and again stuck up for Youkilis and said he was the starting 3B.  Middlebrooks outstanding play made that an impossibility though.  The Red Sox have had some messy divorces in the past with high profile players.  And while this one was getting messy, I think they cut it off before it really got there.  We'll see if the "smear campaign" begins, as it often does.  Bobby V you could certainly make an argument for treating Kevin not so well.  He tried his best to make up for it yesterday by lifting Youk for a pinch runner in the 7th so the crowd and his teammates could show their appreciation for him.  It was a nice move I thought.  The problem with Bobby V it seems, is he is a terrible communicator.  I don't know if that's by design or what.  But he tells the media one thing, such as telling Youkilis that he wouldn't be playing much anymore.  Then the media comes to Youk with the story and he says that it's news to him.  And this has happened on a number of occasions.  It's weird.

See....I take the last few sentences there to be an organizational issue, and not just a Bobby V issue.   Bobby is not the GM.  There were obviously things going on in the Front Office and Youk was being kept in the dark. What Cerrington was saying, and what he was doing, don't seem to be equivalent.   That, IMHO, is deplorable considering what this guy has meant to the team.

Youk essentially got "Wally Pipp"-ed.  I get that Middlebrooks has played steller ball...but don't you at least give Youk the same sort of leeway they gave Veritek and Lowell (or even Ortiz, when he had that 8 weeks or so where he looked DONE)?  Given what he left on the field for this team?  I mean...I know Youk  is younger and (you'd think) not approaching retirement.  But you also know the guy has been banged up pretty good.

This was messy...and I think we'll find out how messy as time goes on.  And I don't think Bobby V's token gesture did much (if anything) to mend fences.  I think you're going to hear about some prominent members of the Sox who are not too happy about the way the Front Office AND the manger handled it.  And I think you'll eventually hear Youk's version of the story, too.
 

I have to say though, I've been impressed with Bobby's ON THE FIELD work.  He has turned that mess of a bullpen into a strength.  He has gotten the most out of the 20 something OF combinations and 14 or so OF's he's had to use.  Now obviously you have to give credit to the players themselves who have been in those roles, but I think Bobby has done a nice job.

I don't think anyone questions his baseball mind.  But he's a poor leader, a poor communicator, and a shit motivator.  That's IN the clubhouse.

I'd give a lot of credit to his pitching coach and to the guys who are vastly outperforming their baseball cards (hoping, I'm sure, to get a regular spot in the majors), too.

Anyway, it was time for Youk to go.  There was just no position for him anymore.  Middlebrooks leads all rookies in RBI and has 9 HR's.  There was no reason to send him back to Pawtucket to let Youkilis figure it out.  Middlebrooks has been their second best hitter this year behind Ortiz, so it didn't make sense playing him only 3-4 times a week.  The best argument for Youkilis would've actually been to platoon with Adrian Gonzalez at 1B, because Adrian has not been good offensively.  But there's no way they were about to go that route.  So they really had no option but to trade Youk.  And since every team knew that, they got very little in return.  I expect Kevin to play much better now that he'll get consistent playing time and I hope nothing but the best for him.  The strange thing is, the White Sox and Red Sox might be battling for that last wild card slot down the stretch.  And this trade should make the White Sox a lot better.

I think their setup  would have worked a bit longer.  As you get closer to the trade deadline, you get more leverage...even if people know you're desparate to get him out.  I think the fact they traded him when they did also says something about the deal (and the organization).  They were riding him out on a rail, practically.

If the Yanks did the same thing to Cano or Tex or even Swisher (or the unthinkable, Jeter).....I'd be pretty disappointed in the team.  I don't care how good the kid coming up was....the veteran deserves a little time to try to figure it out...even if it's from the bench (witness Posada last year).

It does make the Sox better....but then, looking at their production out of that position, I MIGHT make them better (and I haven't swung at a ball thrown over 75 mph in almost 20 years).  It's that bad.

I also wonder what, when/if the league catches up the Middlebrooks,  people will think in the dog days of August if/when Middlebrooks is hitting .225 and Youk is hitting .260....

[faldor]

From the start, it hasn't seemed like Bobby V has been on the same page as the GM or front office in general.  From him wanting Jose Iglesias over Aviles as the SS.  The front office was right with that one.  Bobby wanted Daniel Bard in the bullpen, the front office wanted him as a starter.  Bobby was right on that front.  Bobby wanted Ryan Lavarnway on the team in the mix at catcher, the front office wanted him in Pawtucket.  That's a tossup, though I'd side with Bobby on that one too.  I think in the case of Youkilis, the front office sided with him, Bobby wanted Middlebrooks. 

It was a sticky situation.  Middlebrooks was playing so well it didn't make any sense to send him down to AAA.  And if he's in Boston, he needs to play.  It doesn't do him any good to sit the bench.  They were playing Youkilis a fair amount until recently.  He wasn't showing any signs of breaking out.  In the end, he was being outperformed.  In a baseball sense, his rightful spot was on the bench.  In the past when other guys have struggled they haven't had the option of plugging in a guy who was hitting the ball as well as Middlebrooks.  We're not talking about some kid who's just had a few good weeks.  He was the 3B of the future, and the future was supposed to be next year when they were most likely going to decline the option on Youkilis.  But Middlebrooks was ripping the ball in the minors.  Meanwhile Youkilis was struggling mightily.  People were calling for Will to be called up even before Kevin got hurt.  The injury made the decision academic and the results really can't be argued.  I know it looks bad, but it makes sense.  And that would be tough for Youkilis himself to argue with.  It'd be one thing if Middlebrooks struggled, but it's been nothing of the sort.  And if he goes into a rut, and Youkilis regains his stroke.  I still don't think it'll be viewed negatively.  Middlebrooks is the future, and the future is now.  He gets a year of experience one year ahead of schedule.  Also, they could have held onto Youk for a bit longer.  But by all accounts he was growing more unhappy each day toiling away on the bench.  I can't blame him.  Not to mention the fact that his contribution to the comfort in the clubhouse when he isn't playing (ie. last year when he was on the DL towards the end of the year) has been highly suggested to be on the negative side.  So is it worth risking that just in case Middlebrooks hits a rough patch?

I've come to accept that this Red Sox team is NOT A CONTENDER.  They just don't have what it takes, with or without 9 Kevin Youkilis' on the team.  Their starting pitching just isn't good enough, it doesn't matter who's playing 3B.  Might as well look towards the future, especially when they're no worse off in the present

[faldor]

Just a quick comparison, stats so far in the month of June.

Youkilis - .200/0/2, 4 runs, 4 doubles, .310 OBP, .630 OPS in 50 AB's

Middlebrooks - .347/3/13, 10 runs, 3 doubles, .404 OBP, 995 OPS in 49 AB's

As you can see, the AB's are nearly identical.  The production, not so much.

In May Youk was starting to hit better, but got hurt and hasn't recovered.  That's when Middlebrooks took over and has never looked back.

Youkilis - .313/2/3, 7 runs, 1 double, .371 OBP, 903 OPS in 32 AB's

Middlebrooks - .316/6/21, 13 runs, 7 doubles, .343 OBP, .922 OPS in 95 AB's.

You could make the argument they could've/should've sent down Middlebrooks right when Youkilis came off the DL.  At that point though, Kevin himself would have to know the pressure is on him to perform whether Will was still in Boston or back at Pawtucket.  So I'm not sure things would've played out much differently.  I think they made the right call.  The Red Sox were lacking good right handed hitting, especially with Cody Ross on the DL.  So it would have been risky sending your best right handed hitter to the minors and hoping Youk works his way back.  As it was, they gave him as much of an opportunity as Middlebrooks.  Will just fared better, thus the trade made sense for both parties.

I think Kevin knew this was going to be his last season in Boston anyway, so I think he appreciates the opportunity he has been given in Chicago.  And I hope he does well.  He played his heart out for Boston and was the ultimate gamer.  So much so, I think he may have shortened his career for the benefit of the team.  He had some great seasons and was an above average defensive 1B.  He could've balked at the notion of moving back to 3B, a much more demanding position.  But for the good of the team, he didn't flinch.  Unfortunately, the injuries have ramped up since his move across the diamond.  His versatility makes him more attractive to teams, but I think the most could be gotten out of him if he was primarily a 1B.

[LongGoneDay]

Love what Youkilis has done for and meant to the Sox during his career. Nothing bad to say about the guy, but that said, I don't think it's a crime they let him go.
Middlebrooks appears to be the real deal, so Youk became expendable. The biggest reason being that they had to shift Gonzalez to the OF just to get Youk in the game.
In my opinion, that's a brain dead move. You don't shift established players who have been playing a specific position all of their careers. It just hardly ever works out well.
Youk handled it well. Bard is failing miserably(granted he's young).

Sox let Youk develop in the minors until he was 45, so he's not as young as his 9 year career. Lot of wear, especially the way he plays.
He's been injury prone the past few seasons. Fades down the stretch consistently. The only problem I have with the deal is that they got nothing for him, and still had to pay, so it's not even a salary dump. Would almost rather him a bat off the bench, but not fair to him, and would become a distraction.

Overall it's an unfortunate situation, but Sox handled it about as well as you could expect.
I don't agree with many moves they make the past few years, but this doesn't bother me like some others.

Teams a mess, pitching sucks, can't stay healthy(Youk being a culprit), too many brain dead crippling signings(Dice K, Crawford, Lackey).

Middlebrooks has been a stud on the farm for some time, so I guess you could argue they could have seen this coming and got something for Youk when he was productive, but I wouldn't agree.
I think you have to make sure a player can play at Fenway before you commit big $ to them or replace a player has proven they can get it done here. Maybe the Sox have finally figured that part out.

[tim_m]

Middlebrooks definitely looks good. Last night during the Yankee/Met game they were talking about him and said the only other rookie to have as many homers this fast was Pujols.

[tim_m]

Marlon Byrd tests positive for a PED and has been suspended for 50 games.

[tim_m]

It still amazes me the plays Jeter makes at nearly 38.

[faldor]

Marlon Byrd tests positive for a PED and has been suspended for 50 games.

Now it makes sense why the Red Sox DFA'd him.  That and the fact that he had 3 extra base hits this season.  Guess he didn't get the "good stuff".

I read on twitter the medication he was taking that he tested positive for, prevents cancer.  Why aren't we all taking that?

[pilferk]

Let me be clear on the way I feel about the Youk situation:

It's not a crime that they let him go.

It's a crime the WAY they let him go (or, rather, pushed him out the door).

If the FO goes to him and says: "Look, Youk....this kids the real deal.  We can't send him down.  So...we're either going to have to shop you around or you're going to have to accept a smaller role coming off the bench.  Playing 2 or 3 times a week to get A-gon or Middlebrooks some time off and maybe DHing once every blue moon to get Big Pappi a day of rest."

And then let Youk have some say.  That's the class way to handle it.  Youk might not like hearing it...but I think it's a lot less messy, and a lot more respectable, to handle your business that way.

They didn't do that.  Not by half.  And that, to me, is a crappy way to handle a guy who's been a HUGE part of your organizations success over the past few years.  If this was some mercenary vet who landed on your team last year...fine.  But c'mon?  They traded him for the rough equivalent of a bag of magic beans...WITHOUT the Giant, Harp, and Golden goose potential.

While I don't disagree with much of what was posted, above, in terms of performance...that's a pretty cold way to treat a guy who was beloved by a good sized portion of Red Sox Nation.

[faldor]

Let me be clear on the way I feel about the Youk situation:

It's not a crime that they let him go.

It's a crime the WAY they let him go (or, rather, pushed him out the door).

If the FO goes to him and says: "Look, Youk....this kids the real deal.  We can't send him down.  So...we're either going to have to shop you around or you're going to have to accept a smaller role coming off the bench.  Playing 2 or 3 times a week to get A-gon or Middlebrooks some time off and maybe DHing once every blue moon to get Big Pappi a day of rest."

And then let Youk have some say.  That's the class way to handle it.  Youk might not like hearing it...but I think it's a lot less messy, and a lot more respectable, to handle your business that way.

They didn't do that.  Not by half.  And that, to me, is a crappy way to handle a guy who's been a HUGE part of your organizations success over the past few years.  If this was some mercenary vet who landed on your team last year...fine.  But c'mon?  They traded him for the rough equivalent of a bag of magic beans...WITHOUT the Giant, Harp, and Golden goose potential.

While I don't disagree with much of what was posted, above, in terms of performance...that's a pretty cold way to treat a guy who was beloved by a good sized portion of Red Sox Nation.

With all due respect, how do you know exactly how they handled the situation?  They DID give Youk a chance and still played him even though Middlebrooks was outproducing him by a large amount.  They moved Adrian Gonzalez to RF so they could get Youk's bat into the lineup.  It wasn't until recently when Cody Ross returned, another potent right handed bat, that Youkilis became expendable once and for all.

Now if you want to argue that the last WEEKEND could have been handled better, okay.  But it's not like they strung the guy along for the last 2 months and made him sit the bench against his will.  They gave him every chance to prove his worth.  He didn't do it.  This is a unique situation, where the best positional prospect in the organization is major league ready, and they guy he is replacing who has been regressing the last few seasons is in the final year of his contract.  It was easy to see the writing on the wall, it just happened quicker than anyone expected due to the parties directly involved.

I don't think anyone wanted it to happen the way it did.  The hope was for Youk to play out his contract, maybe give Middlebrooks a look late in the season to get his feet wet.  They didn't expect Youk to struggle so much and get injured again, and have Middlebrooks come up and hit .330/9/35 in less than 2 months time.  It's a tough situation for sure.  Youkilis was one of the most beloved players in recent Red Sox history.  So much in fact, last night Middlebrooks made an error in the first inning and chants of "Youuuuk" erupted from the crowd.  And the fans LOVE Middlebrooks.  If Youk could only pitch in place of John Lackey or play LF in place of Carl Crawford.  Unfortunately that's not the case.  Everyone understands why it had to happen, but that doesn't make it any easier to accept.

[LongGoneDay]

Let me be clear on the way I feel about the Youk situation:

It's not a crime that they let him go.

It's a crime the WAY they let him go (or, rather, pushed him out the door).

If the FO goes to him and says: "Look, Youk....this kids the real deal.  We can't send him down.  So...we're either going to have to shop you around or you're going to have to accept a smaller role coming off the bench.  Playing 2 or 3 times a week to get A-gon or Middlebrooks some time off and maybe DHing once every blue moon to get Big Pappi a day of rest."

And then let Youk have some say.  That's the class way to handle it.  Youk might not like hearing it...but I think it's a lot less messy, and a lot more respectable, to handle your business that way.

They didn't do that.  Not by half.  And that, to me, is a crappy way to handle a guy who's been a HUGE part of your organizations success over the past few years.  If this was some mercenary vet who landed on your team last year...fine.  But c'mon?  They traded him for the rough equivalent of a bag of magic beans...WITHOUT the Giant, Harp, and Golden goose potential.

While I don't disagree with much of what was posted, above, in terms of performance...that's a pretty cold way to treat a guy who was beloved by a good sized portion of Red Sox Nation.

I just really can't find fault with the way Youk was "treated". Sox have butchered players exits many times before, but this isn't one of em.
Sox have enough problems as it is. Middlebrooks is one of the few bright spots, so it doesn't make sense to not have him in the lineup.
It also makes no sense to move Gonzalez to the OF. That gamble was not worth the risk, but they did it anyways to accommodate Youk.
Would the Sox have preferred Kevin was hitting like he's capable? If for no other reason they could actually get more than the bucket of baseballs they got in return?
Of course, but it's not reality.
Neither was finding a perfect case scenario where every one is totally happy.
I would rather have him as a bat off the bench, but I think it's safe to say he'd prefer to be a starter in Chicago.
He's playing for his next contract.

In the end it works out pretty well. More so for Youk, really. He gets a fresh start on a contending team. It's not like we sent him to the Cubs!
Sox now have the infield set at least, and now only have to focus on the clusterfuck situation that will be once Crawford is healthy enough to return and grace us with his horribly awkward swing, and surprisingly shoddy defense.
What happens with Nava. Maybe he comes back to reality and it's a non issue, but right now, he looks a whole lot better than CC.

Anyways, moving Youk was inevitable. They weren't picking up that 14 million option even if he's tearing the cover off the ball, so this is almost a non story.
He was great, but Sox developed another 3B who's proven he's ready to take over. Now they just need Gonzalez to remember how to hit, Lester and Bard to learn how to locate their fastball, Bucholz to get out of the hospital, eat some chees burgers and add some weight to that 145 pound frame of his so he doesn't got right back, Ellsbury and Beckett to get healthy, Crawford  and Lackey to stay hurt, Dice K to get homesick and swim back to Japan and fucking stay there, forever, maybe take Punto with him, and maybe a half dozen or so other mini miracles to happen and they should be good to go.

[faldor]

Sox now have the infield set at least, and now only have to focus on the clusterfuck situation that will be once Crawford is healthy enough to return and grace us with his horribly awkward swing, and surprisingly shoddy defense.
What happens with Nava. Maybe he comes back to reality and it's a non issue, but right now, he looks a whole lot better than CC.

Anyways, moving Youk was inevitable. They weren't picking up that 14 million option even if he's tearing the cover off the ball, so this is almost a non story.
He was great, but Sox developed another 3B who's proven he's ready to take over. Now they just need Gonzalez to remember how to hit, Lester and Bard to learn how to locate their fastball, Bucholz to get out of the hospital, eat some chees burgers and add some weight to that 145 pound frame of his so he doesn't got right back, Ellsbury and Beckett to get healthy, Crawford  and Lackey to stay hurt, Dice K to get homesick and swim back to Japan and fucking stay there, forever, maybe take Punto with him, and maybe a half dozen or so other mini miracles to happen and they should be good to go.

Exactly, they're that close to becoming a true contender. 

Not this year.  I do think they'll be in the hunt for that last wild card berth because there's just so many mediocre teams in baseball this season.

They will have some interesting decisions on the OF front when/if Ellsbury and Crawford come back.  I'd assume Ellsbury, Crawford, and Ross will get most of the playing time.  I'd think CC would be on a bit of a short leash though, especially if Nava continues to hit.  Not to mention Sweeney and Podsednik, when/if they return.  McDonald might finally get released, but he's survived this drill before many times somehow.  And I'd think Kalish will get sent back down to Pawtucket for some more seasoning.  Now that they have Lillibridge, there's really no reason for both he AND Punto, but for some reason they signed Nick to a 2 year deal.  Not sure they'd outright release him with that being the case.  Lillibridge would seem to have a little more to offer, though who knows for sure.  Not that they could get much of anything for them, but I wouldn't mind seeing them trying to deal guys like Shoppach, Nava, Albers, Atchison, Punto, etc.  For the sole purpose of creating roster space if nothing else.