2012 Baseball Season/Off-Season Discussion

[faldor]

Ortiz came up lame last night, too, running the bases.

Any word on that injury.

If that's in any way serious.....Sox are going to be in BIG trouble.

Heard an interview with him after the game where he sort of said he was fine....but it didn't look like he was fine when he did it.

he too is scheduled to have an MRI today. Bobby V said it will probably be "some days" for Ortiz. He had an injury to his achilles last year and he missed 9 games. It sounds like it won't be a season ender but outside of that it's hard to tell. Could be a week, a month. Should get some more concrete news following the MRI.

[faldor]

Who's to say ANY manager would have changed the culture? At some point you have to lay some blame on the payers themselves.

I get what you're saying for sure although wasn't Henry's choosing of Valentine partially due to the perception he would be a strong enough personality to change a clubhouse gone bad?

Cherington wanted no part of Valentine, correct?

Bobby was not Cherington's first choice. He wanted Dale Svuem. Personally I preferred Bobby over Sveum too, not a very exciting list of candidates. Bobby was Larry Luchinno's guy. Larry runs the baseball operations for the Sox. John Henry just opens his wallet. He's much more involved with the Manchester United team these days.

The "culture change" was more of a media perception if I recall correctly. I don't remember hearing management saying that was the reason for the hire. If anything they thought the difference in styles between Tito and Bobby would be what the doctor ordered. It has been mishandled from the start though. Bobby wasn't allowed to bring his own guys to fill out his coaching staff. Cherington backed Youkilis and not Bobby after his early season comments. Larry has been absent in defending "his boy". Bobby wanted Bard in the bullpen. Organization wante him as a starter, which has turned out to be a complete disaster. The guy can't get guys out at AAA now. Conversely, it was Bobby's call to take Franklin Morales out of the pen and slide into the rotation. That, aside from one bad start against the Yankees, has worked out great. There have been a lot of things working against Bobby all season. So again, despite all that he has them in position for that final wild card. Obviously the communication skills are a bit lacking. Not sure that can be corrected, or if Bobby even wants too. Might have helped if he had "his guys" on his coaching staff though. I can see retaining a few guys from the prvious regime, but usually they clean house and start anew. To have Bobby ultimately only get to hire his 1st base coach and an assistant pitching coach seems a little odd to me.

[Falcon]

Who's to say ANY manager would have changed the culture? At some point you have to lay some blame on the payers themselves.

I get what you're saying for sure although wasn't Henry's choosing of Valentine partially due to the perception he would be a strong enough personality to change a clubhouse gone bad?

Cherington wanted no part of Valentine, correct?

Bobby was not Cherington's first choice. He wanted Dale Svuem. Personally I preferred Bobby over Sveum too, not a very exciting list of candidates. Bobby was Larry Luchinno's guy. Larry runs the baseball operations for the Sox. John Henry just opens his wallet. He's much more involved with the Manchester United team these days.

The "culture change" was more of a media perception if I recall correctly. I don't remember hearing management saying that was the reason for the hire. If anything they thought the difference in styles between Tito and Bobby would be what the doctor ordered. It has been mishandled from the start though. Bobby wasn't allowed to bring his own guys to fill out his coaching staff. Cherington backed Youkilis and not Bobby after his early season comments. Larry has been absent in defending "his boy". Bobby wanted Bard in the bullpen. Organization wante him as a starter, which has turned out to be a complete disaster. The guy can't get guys out at AAA now. Conversely, it was Bobby's call to take Franklin Morales out of the pen and slide into the rotation. That, aside from one bad start against the Yankees, has worked out great. There have been a lot of things working against Bobby all season. So again, despite all that he has them in position for that final wild card. Obviously the communication skills are a bit lacking. Not sure that can be corrected, or if Bobby even wants too. Might have helped if he had "his guys" on his coaching staff though. I can see retaining a few guys from the prvious regime, but usually they clean house and start anew. To have Bobby ultimately only get to hire his 1st base coach and an assistant pitching coach seems a little odd to me.

Interesting insight faldor - it's never dull being a Sox fan is it?

[faldor]

I also wonder what, when/if the league catches up the Middlebrooks,  people will think in the dog days of August if/when Middlebrooks is hitting .225 and Youk is hitting .260....

Since the trade:

Youk: 61 ABs, .295 Avg, .397 OB%, .475 SLG%, .895 OPS, with 3 HRS (and 5 total extra  base hits).

Middlebrooks:  43 AB's (because of an injury), .186 Avg, .200 OB%, .418 SLG%, .618 OPS%, with 2 HRs (and 4 total extra base hits).

I bring this up ONLY because of the (continued) comments Valentine has made about Youk.

And again, I don't think Valentine's comments about Youk are far off base.  Should he have made the comments?  Probably not.  Probably should've just kept his mouth shut.  But when has Bobby been known to do that?  Kevin, and many others, weren't keen on the Bobby V. hiring to begin with.  Once he made the "Kevin isn't as into it physically or mentally" comment, all hope was lost on a lovefest between the two.  Youk struggled, got hurt, lost his job, became increasingly unhappy, was traded. 

And I don't think anyone is surprised that Youkilis has thrived with the White Sox.  If anything, that shows even more how unhappy he was in Boston that he wasn't able to produce like that till now.  A change of scenery, a team that desperately needed him, a guaranteed #2 spot in the lineup every day.  All signs point to him putting up solid numbers.  Conversely, Middlebrooks began to struggle right after the trade was made.  Maybe he felt the pressure to prove the organization right for making the trade and banking on him.  Then he started getting it going but got injured and missed about a week.  He's back now and is picking it up again.  He'll be fine.

I'll say this though.  The Red Sox could use Youkilis now with Ortiz out for at least a week.  I imagine they'll eventually put him on the DL, maybe when Pedroia comes off.  He said he felt worse today than he did last night and is going for a second opinion.  So that's not really a good sign.  Seems like for the 3rd straight year, they just will never get their everyday lineup all on the field at once. 

And for some reason, they're moving Franklin Morales back to the bullpen.  He's been arguably their best starter since he joined the rotation.  I guess they feel the need for another lefty in the pen.  I realize he probably would've been on an innings restriction down the line as he hasn't started for years, but I would've liked to see the experiment go a little longer.  Move Lester to the pen.  He's been awful this year.

[faldor]

Interesting insight faldor - it's never dull being a Sox fan is it?

It sure isn't.  We had it way too good for that 4 year span.  Things are getting back to normal in Red Sox Nation now.  People are surly as ever.

[pilferk]

And again, I don't think Valentine's comments about Youk are far off base. 

You agree that Youk wasn't focused on his job?  You agree that Youk wasn't " as physically or emotionally into the game as he has been in the past for some reason"?

I don't buy it....especially in a contract year.

He struggled.  It happens. That's baseball.

Questioning a guys commitment, his heart, and showing a lack of confidence in him doesn't help the situation, IMHO.  In fact, given his resurgance....it makes you wonder JUST how much an effect Bobby had.

Bobby's comments on Youk "not wanting to get over it"?  Those might be closer to true.  But then...I wonder if someone (like the owner) made similar comments about Bobby and his managerial stint so far, just how quickly Bobby would "get over" them.  If the past is any indicator....the answer is: not fast.  I'm not exactly sure what Bobby was expecting, there....or what anyone else would expect.

But he sure felt the need to open his mouth about it, that's for sure.

Should he have made the comments?  Probably not.  Probably should've just kept his mouth shut.  But when has Bobby been known to do that?  Kevin, and many others, weren't keen on the Bobby V. hiring to begin with.  Once he made the "Kevin isn't as into it physically or mentally" comment, all hope was lost on a lovefest between the two.  Youk struggled, got hurt, lost his job, became increasingly unhappy, was traded. 

PROBABLY not?  That's being overly generous, by a lot.

And again, I posted the number not really due to Bobby's OLD comments...but for the fact he continues to comment and bring it up.  It looks like HE's the one having a hard time moving past it.

Youk seems to be long past it (given his "no comment" bent).  At the very least, he's certainly taking the high road.

I find that somewhat amusing...because USUALLY....it's the other way around (player spouting off, manager taking the high road).  Unless you're Ozzie, that is.

And I don't think anyone is surprised that Youkilis has thrived with the White Sox.  If anything, that shows even more how unhappy he was in Boston that he wasn't able to produce like that till now.  A change of scenery, a team that desperately needed him, a guaranteed #2 spot in the lineup every day.  All signs point to him putting up solid numbers. 

That's actually my point.

The environment (which the manager created) was effecting his ability to produce.  Probably not early (again...baseball), but it sure looks like post Bobby's comments.  Because Youk left the ballpark, got on a plane, flew 2 hours west, and looked like a new player the next day.

Conversely, Middlebrooks began to struggle right after the trade was made.  Maybe he felt the pressure to prove the organization right for making the trade and banking on him.  Then he started getting it going but got injured and missed about a week.  He's back now and is picking it up again.  He'll be fine.

We'll see.  I suspect there's a bit of the league figuring him out....and he's going to have to adjust.  You can see it in the way he's being pitched to, now, vs early in the season.

Again, I'll reiterate my previous point.

We'll see how people feel about the trade in the dog days of August if/when Middlebrooks is hitting .225 and Youk is hitting .260....

We're getting closer to that.

Middlebrooks BA has dropped 31 points since the trade.  Outside of one good game (3/4 against the Rays), his numbers still aren't great, in terms of "picking it up".  Even with that game, since July 1, he's batting .213.  Since the 13th (the end of the AS break), he's 5/20 (again, including his 3/4 game).  Maybe he's hurt, maybe it's pressure....but I doubt it's what the Sox envisioned when they traded Youk.

That platoon at 3rd base is looking a bit more appealing than it did when they pulled the trigger on the trade, that's for sure.

I'll say this though.  The Red Sox could use Youkilis now with Ortiz out for at least a week.  I imagine they'll eventually put him on the DL, maybe when Pedroia comes off.  He said he felt worse today than he did last night and is going for a second opinion.  So that's not really a good sign.  Seems like for the 3rd straight year, they just will never get their everyday lineup all on the field at once. 

See, that was my point when the trade was made. 

You could find a role for Youk, on your team....especially with the sheer number of injuries they've been facing this year. 

And for some reason, they're moving Franklin Morales back to the bullpen.  He's been arguably their best starter since he joined the rotation.  I guess they feel the need for another lefty in the pen.  I realize he probably would've been on an innings restriction down the line as he hasn't started for years, but I would've liked to see the experiment go a little longer.  Move Lester to the pen.  He's been awful this year.

Who's taking his spot in the rotation?

Heard Bard is getting HAMMERED in AAA, right now.  Not a good sign.

[faldor]

I still disagree with you wholeheartedly about hanging on to Youk. The trade had to happen based on his lack of production compared to others around him. It didn't make sense to platoon him anymore and he was growing unhappier by the day. Due to Bobby's comments or not, that was the situation they were dealing with. And for the record, I agree with Bobby's latest comments, not his initial comments.

It wouldn't have made sense, or been fair to Youkilis to let him wither away on the bench waiting for an injury to open the door for his return. It was getting ugly and that would've added to the chaos. You can't plan on injuries. These things happen. Both sides are better off today than they were prior to the trade, or at least in the case of the Red Sox, no worse off.

And your Youkilis vs. Middlebrooks comparison, while inevitable, really doesn't factor in as far as I'm concerned. Even if Will hits .200 and Youk hits .400, the Red Sox weren't going to be a legit contender this year regardless. Might as well let Middlebrooks gets his feet wet this season rather than waiting till next. So nobody is going to be lamenting the trade and wondering "what if they just held onto Youk". They may have a few more wins, maybe even sneak in to the final wild card. But the way Lester and Beckett have been pitching, though more Lester, they have no chance against the top teams in the AL.

As for Morales, they had been going with a 6 man rotation recently, so now they're back to the standard 5 man.

[LongGoneDay]

Sucks seeing Youk go, but it had to happen.
Really not even a story in my opinion. He's proving in Chicago that he is still very much an everyday player.
The Sox knew that he was. They aren't stupid, even though some moves they have made over the years would lead you to believe otherwise.
His track record told you he was gonna come around, and he has. Middlebrooks came on sooner than expected, but he's been a stud in the system for a while.
Couple that with Youk's price tag, he was the 3B of the future. It's not fair to keep a hitter the caliber of Youk as a platoon, and would only be a distraction.
No team would even consider that a possibilty for an extended period of time.
It's Middlebrooks time to prove he belongs.

Bobby questioning his commitment was flat out wrong and inexcusable, though.
Still don't mind the Bobby V signing. It does sort of go to show that baseball knowledge is almost irrelevant today.
These players make so much money that they live in another world. It's more important to be able to manage these divas egos.

Just heard on WEEI that Miami is discussing a Crawford for Ramirez swap.
Can't see it happening, but would love it if it's true!

[Falcon]

Just saw Ortiz to be disabled, out for at least 2 weeks.

[tim_m]

Damn... its going from bad to worse to horrible for Boston this year.

[Falcon]

Cards did something roster wise nobody saw coming, me included.

One of their top young starting pitching prospects Trevor Rosenthal has been summoned from AA to help solidify the bullpen.

It'll be interesting to see how this goes, wasn't expected to sniff the big leagues for at least another year.

Interesting, you don't see a guy go from AA to the majors very often.

Rosenthal made his debut today, a lil shaky in a tight game but got out of his 1IP allowing no damage.

Gave up a hit, walked a couple and struck out a couple.

He throws hard, silly hard  - hit 100 twice (stadium gun so take that for what it's worth) and sat 95-97 throughout.  Recorded 1 of the K's with a nasty breaking ball in the dirt.

It'll be interesting to see how he does, it's fun watching the kids get a shot.

[faldor]

Just heard on WEEI that Miami is discussing a Crawford for Ramirez swap.
Can't see it happening, but would love it if it's true!

Yeah just saw that on TV and read it on twitter.  The supposed deal was Crawford and a prospect for Han-Ram and Heath Bell, but it was immediately shot down.  Crawford has actually looked pretty decent the last 2 nights, dare I say like the Carl Crawford of old.  Of course now that he heard this trade rumor his confidence will probably be shot and he'll regress back to 2011 Carl. 

[tim_m]

Crappy news for the Yanks today, Gardner is done for the year. Since his elbow isn't getting better with rehab they are gonna have to go in and do arthroscopic surgery to see what's causing the problem and fix it.

[AxlsMainMan]

Rough weekend for the Yankees, Mets, and Red Sox.

[pilferk]

Rough weekend for the Yankees, Mets, and Red Sox.

Yeah..but honestly...they almost always play like crud when they go west.  And, really...they lost 4 straight one run games.  Pitching looked good in all but Garcia's game...bats just went silent (and Oakland has the best ERA in the AL).  Hard to get TOO worried..we'll see how they do against Seattle.

[tim_m]

We just ran into a team on one helluva roll. With the Rangers slumping bad they need to be more worried about Oakland i think then the Angels.

[Falcon]

We just ran into a team on one helluva roll. With the Rangers slumping bad they need to be more worried about Oakland i think then the Angels.

Oakland's on a nice run although I think the Angels are much more of a threat moving forward.

They've got players of value to deal and money to burn with an owner that's not afraid to go out and pull the trigger.

And of course, Oakland is still Oakland.

[AxlsMainMan]

The Cubs have traded Dempster to Atlanta and the Tigers are still interested in acquiring Barney.

[tim_m]

We just ran into a team on one helluva roll. With the Rangers slumping bad they need to be more worried about Oakland i think then the Angels.

Oakland's on a nice run although I think the Angels are much more of a threat moving forward.

They've got players of value to deal and money to burn with an owner that's not afraid to go out and pull the trigger.

And of course, Oakland is still Oakland.

We'll see, Oakland has the lowest ERA. Their offense might not be on par with the Angels but their pitching will give them a chance to win more often then not.

[Falcon]

Ichiro is now a Yankee, didn't see that one coming.

DJ Mitchell and Danny Farqhar headed to the M's, no clue about those 2.

Tim, pilf - what's the scoop on those guys?