2012 Baseball Season/Off-Season Discussion

[tim_m]

Marlon Byrd tests positive for a PED and has been suspended for 50 games.

Now it makes sense why the Red Sox DFA'd him.  That and the fact that he had 3 extra base hits this season.  Guess he didn't get the "good stuff".

I read on twitter the medication he was taking that he tested positive for, prevents cancer.  Why aren't we all taking that?

He was apparently taking it for a medical reason, but in cases like that you are required to get special permission from the league to take something like that. He obviously did not and deserves to pay the price for his stupidity.

[pilferk]

With all due respect, how do you know exactly how they handled the situation?

With all due respect...it played out like a fucking circus side show in the press (both national and Boston).  If you're thinking things went COUNTER to how they were portrayed....great. I've not seen anything to indicate that.  But Youk, himself, indicated he had no clue what was up with his situation....about 48 hours before he was shown the door.   Add the ongoing issues that have gone on since the Bobby V comments....again, played out like a fucking circus side show...and I"m not sure what information you think is lacking.

  They DID give Youk a chance and still played him even though Middlebrooks was outproducing him by a large amount.  They moved Adrian Gonzalez to RF so they could get Youk's bat into the lineup.  It wasn't until recently when Cody Ross returned, another potent right handed bat, that Youkilis became expendable once and for all.

Define expendable?  As a starter? Yes.  As a potential contributor to the team? No.  Again, he could play 2 to 3 times a week to spell guys or be a bat off the bench, late.  It's not like the guy had NO potential role.

Now if you want to argue that the last WEEKEND could have been handled better, okay. 

Which was the culmination of about 8 weeks of crap...all detailed ad nauseum in the national and Boston press.

So, you've rather made my point.  Because this weekend was, really, a lot more of the same.

But it's not like they strung the guy along for the last 2 months and made him sit the bench against his will.  They gave him every chance to prove his worth.  He didn't do it.  This is a unique situation, where the best positional prospect in the organization is major league ready, and they guy he is replacing who has been regressing the last few seasons is in the final year of his contract.  It was easy to see the writing on the wall, it just happened quicker than anyone expected due to the parties directly involved.

I don't think anyone wanted it to happen the way it did.  The hope was for Youk to play out his contract, maybe give Middlebrooks a look late in the season to get his feet wet.  They didn't expect Youk to struggle so much and get injured again, and have Middlebrooks come up and hit .330/9/35 in less than 2 months time.  It's a tough situation for sure.  Youkilis was one of the most beloved players in recent Red Sox history.  So much in fact, last night Middlebrooks made an error in the first inning and chants of "Youuuuk" erupted from the crowd.  And the fans LOVE Middlebrooks.  If Youk could only pitch in place of John Lackey or play LF in place of Carl Crawford.  Unfortunately that's not the case.  Everyone understands why it had to happen, but that doesn't make it any easier to accept.

Everyone, apparently, except for Youk (given his comments in the press).  Otherwise, when asked, I don't think he would have been nearly as "uninformed" on the situation.  Right?

I'm not disputing your baseball logic, here.  I'm disputing your people logic. 

The fact is: There should have been a conversation, with YOUK, about what was going on.  They owed him at least that.   MAYBE he was owed a choice, considering there WAS one (bench or trade).  He was owed a certain amount of communication and respect, at least (and more than a curtain call with the fans).

And arguing against that is pretty cold, all things considered.

[pilferk]

I just really can't find fault with the way Youk was "treated". Sox have butchered players exits many times before, but this isn't one of em.
Sox have enough problems as it is. Middlebrooks is one of the few bright spots, so it doesn't make sense to not have him in the lineup.
It also makes no sense to move Gonzalez to the OF. That gamble was not worth the risk, but they did it anyways to accommodate Youk.
Would the Sox have preferred Kevin was hitting like he's capable? If for no other reason they could actually get more than the bucket of baseballs they got in return?
Of course, but it's not reality.
Neither was finding a perfect case scenario where every one is totally happy.
I would rather have him as a bat off the bench, but I think it's safe to say he'd prefer to be a starter in Chicago.
He's playing for his next contract.

See...I'm not sure it is safe to say.  They didn't really consult him, or communicate with him at all apparently, on what he was willing to do.

That's rather the point.

In the end it works out pretty well. More so for Youk, really. He gets a fresh start on a contending team. It's not like we sent him to the Cubs!

He can't do any worse than what has come from the 3B spot on the White Sox, so far. 

[faldor]

Trust me pilferk, Youk knew way more than he let on. It was a surprise to no one that he was being shopped. It was news to no one that he wanted to play and didn't want to be a bench player. So no, there was no role for him on the team anymore. In a perfect world, yes, they would have been better off keeping him as a bench player but he was not going to accept that role. He's still young enough to get one more contract in the off season. He now has the chance to prove himself.

I'd say it's rare guys are actually told when they're being shopped around. You may want to fantasize about a nice fluffy world like that, but that's not the world we live in. A discussion wasn't warranted. The thing I will agree with you, is Bobby's comments about having a conversation with Youkilis weren't needed, if indeed that didn't happen. Not sure what his gameplan is there. Does he want to give the impression that he did the right thing? Does he think players won't dispute things he says if they disagree? Is he telling the truth and the players hate him so much they lie to paint him in a negative light? That stuff, I can't figure out.

[pilferk]

Trust me pilferk, Youk knew way more than he let on. It was a surprise to no one that he was being shopped. It was news to no one that he wanted to play and didn't want to be a bench player. So no, there was no role for him on the team anymore. In a perfect world, yes, they would have been better off keeping him as a bench player but he was not going to accept that role. He's still young enough to get one more contract in the off season. He now has the chance to prove himself.

I need more than "trust me".  We have more than that in the press, and in Youks own words.

I trust that a bit more.

Maybe he would have said "no" to the role they proposed.  Doesn't mean he doesn't deserve the courtesy of the proposal.  "He was not going to accept that" isn't a valid argument for not asking the question.  You can pretty much know the answer to a question...and still ask it (and I don't mean rhetorically)...because asking it is the best way to handle the situation.

You let him say "no".  Then..the organization has been classy, done what it could, and both sides understand it's time to Mo Vaughn (move on).

And, ultimately, the outcome is probably exactly the same as what happened. 

I'd say it's rare guys are actually told when they're being shopped around. You may want to fantasize about a nice fluffy world like that, but that's not the world we live in.

When it comes to players that have meant as much to your team as Youk meant to the Sox...yes, yes it is the world we live in.  That's the way OTHER teams looking to do similar things have handled it.  They go to the player, lay out the situation, and go from there. Young talent? Certainly not.  Vets who have spent the majority of their career playing for you, helping you win the only championships you've seen in nearly 100 years, and who have "given" as much as Youk has?  Absolutely.  The SOX have a history of not doing business that way.....on that we agree (Nomar?).  I'm honestly beginning to wonder if THAT'S where the disconnect is.  Sox fans are so used to this kind of thing (and I agree..this is minor in the grand scheme of their messy partings), they just don't see the issue.  To be clear: That's not meant as a knock on the Sox fans...just on the Sox Front Offices of the past.

Witness the Yanks and Posada last year.  Posada didn't like much of what happend, but the Yanks handled it with class.  And he ended his career with the Yanks.

Now, Youk wasn't, likely, at the same point.  But there are some similarities there that hold out.

A discussion wasn't warranted.

A discussion with a guy about his livelihood is pretty much always warrented, ESPECIALLY when he's put in the service that Youk has to your organization.  That's the classy way to do things.  Not just in baseball...in business (witness almost every management "resignation" in history).

They don't always get done that way....but it doesn't mean they shouldn't.

The thing I will agree with you, is Bobby's comments about having a conversation with Youkilis weren't needed, if indeed that didn't happen. Not sure what his gameplan is there. Does he want to give the impression that he did the right thing? Does he think players won't dispute things he says if they disagree? Is he telling the truth and the players hate him so much they lie to paint him in a negative light? That stuff, I can't figure out.

But..that's the point.  Bobby isn't the ONLY liason between the players and the front office...but he's one of them.  He's part of the way the organization handles situations.  Thus, if he failed this miserably...the whole organization did, too. 

That being said: The GM needs to step up and get involved, too, on something like this.  Now, if Bobby told the GM that he had a conversation with Youk, and he didn't....then it's time for the GM to talk to Bobby about what insubordination is.  I haven't heard, specifically, that's what happened.  Maybe.

Still deplorable.

[tim_m]

Hughes was in command tonight against the Indians. He made them look silly often. What a play by Wise, but the replay showed he clearly didn't catch it. Someone put the ball in his glove while in the stands lol.

[faldor]

Trust me pilferk, Youk knew way more than he let on. It was a surprise to no one that he was being shopped. It was news to no one that he wanted to play and didn't want to be a bench player. So no, there was no role for him on the team anymore. In a perfect world, yes, they would have been better off keeping him as a bench player but he was not going to accept that role. He's still young enough to get one more contract in the off season. He now has the chance to prove himself.

I need more than "trust me".  We have more than that in the press, and in Youks own words.

I trust that a bit more.

Maybe he would have said "no" to the role they proposed.  Doesn't mean he doesn't deserve the courtesy of the proposal.  "He was not going to accept that" isn't a valid argument for not asking the question.  You can pretty much know the answer to a question...and still ask it (and I don't mean rhetorically)...because asking it is the best way to handle the situation.

You let him say "no".  Then..the organization has been classy, done what it could, and both sides understand it's time to Mo Vaughn (move on).

And, ultimately, the outcome is probably exactly the same as what happened. 

I'd say it's rare guys are actually told when they're being shopped around. You may want to fantasize about a nice fluffy world like that, but that's not the world we live in.

When it comes to players that have meant as much to your team as Youk meant to the Sox...yes, yes it is the world we live in.  That's the way OTHER teams looking to do similar things have handled it.  They go to the player, lay out the situation, and go from there. Young talent? Certainly not.  Vets who have spent the majority of their career playing for you, helping you win the only championships you've seen in nearly 100 years, and who have "given" as much as Youk has?  Absolutely.  The SOX have a history of not doing business that way.....on that we agree (Nomar?).  I'm honestly beginning to wonder if THAT'S where the disconnect is.  Sox fans are so used to this kind of thing (and I agree..this is minor in the grand scheme of their messy partings), they just don't see the issue.  To be clear: That's not meant as a knock on the Sox fans...just on the Sox Front Offices of the past.

Witness the Yanks and Posada last year.  Posada didn't like much of what happend, but the Yanks handled it with class.  And he ended his career with the Yanks.

Now, Youk wasn't, likely, at the same point.  But there are some similarities there that hold out.

A discussion wasn't warranted.

A discussion with a guy about his livelihood is pretty much always warrented, ESPECIALLY when he's put in the service that Youk has to your organization.  That's the classy way to do things.  Not just in baseball...in business (witness almost every management "resignation" in history).

They don't always get done that way....but it doesn't mean they shouldn't.

The thing I will agree with you, is Bobby's comments about having a conversation with Youkilis weren't needed, if indeed that didn't happen. Not sure what his gameplan is there. Does he want to give the impression that he did the right thing? Does he think players won't dispute things he says if they disagree? Is he telling the truth and the players hate him so much they lie to paint him in a negative light? That stuff, I can't figure out.

But..that's the point.  Bobby isn't the ONLY liason between the players and the front office...but he's one of them.  He's part of the way the organization handles situations.  Thus, if he failed this miserably...the whole organization did, too. 

That being said: The GM needs to step up and get involved, too, on something like this.  Now, if Bobby told the GM that he had a conversation with Youk, and he didn't....then it's time for the GM to talk to Bobby about what insubordination is.  I haven't heard, specifically, that's what happened.  Maybe.

Still deplorable.

The Sox do have a history of ending relationships badly, so you're probably right.  This ending with Youkilis is hugs and kisses compared to Nomar, Manny, Tito, Theo, and on and on and on.  At least for now.  We'll see if they ramp up the "smear campaign" in the coming days.  But as it stands now, it seems like it's being blown out of proportion.

One more note though about your proposal of making Youkilis a part time player.  The way things were currently constituted it wouldn't have made sense to play him more than ONE game a week on average, two at best.  Ortiz is their best hitter and has hit lefties extremely well.  You don't want him sitting more than a couple times a MONTH.  Gonzalez has struggled, and I was in favor of platooning Youk with him at 1B IF they weren't going to trade him.  But the organization was never going to go for that.  They're paying Adrian a lot of money, they're going to let him work it out as long as it takes.  Reference Carl Crawford last year.  And Middlebrooks was far outperforming Youkilis, and you don't want to sit the kid and stunt his growth.  He needs to play every day.  So again, Youkilis wouldn't have had a role, other than if there was an injury that forced him back into action.  His play just didn't warrant otherwise.  And I know you don't want to hear it, but TRUST ME, Kevin would not have handled playing a couple times a month very well. 

Another thing, there have been whispers for YEARS now about exactly how well Youkilis got along with teammates and in the clubhouse.  There are many who believe that he was the "snitch" on the whole chicken and beer thing last year.  Josh Beckett and some of the other "culprits" were supposedly not very fond of him for doing so.  This is all speculation mind you, none of it proven.  But there was that infamous fight between Youk and Manny in the dugout years back.  Apparently teammates were getting fed up with Youkilis throwing his helmet and getting so pissed whenever he made an out (a-la Paul O'Neill) and Manny had enough and had it out with him in the public eye.  There were also many reports that he was not friendly to be around last season when he was on the DL, in other words he didn't have a positive effect on the team.

So if you want to focus on ALL the GOOD, and just go with the fact that he tried hard, exceeded expectations, and helped win a World Series.  That's fine, but that doesn't tell the whole story.  There's a little more to it than that.  In the end, I think it's clear the problem was between Kevin and Bobby.  I don't think Kevin holds any resentment towards anyone but Bobby.  Let's face it, they got off to a rocky start this season with Bobby's out of left field comments about Kevin not being into it physically or mentally, or however delicately he put it.  I don't think they ever recovered from that.  And I'd venture to guess that if Bobby had his way, he wouldn't stop at Youkilis when it comes to cleaning house.  He seems to handle younger players better than established veterans, so it's no secret he wanted guys like Iglesias, Lavarnway, and Middlebrooks to play bigger roles than the organization had planned on.  So far, he's only gotten his way with Middlebrooks.  Salty has had a great year, so I don't see Lavarnway coming up unless they deal away Shoppach.  And Iglesias still can't hit AAA pitching, so he needs to stay right where he is.

[pilferk]

OK, I'm done with the Youk talk.  I think I've sufficiently made my point.

That play by Wise last night...if I'm anyone involved in the Cleveland organization (or, really, any non-Yankee fan outside looking in), I'm ticked off. 

One more example of the umps screwing up.  The 3rd base ump NEVER EVEN asked Wise to see the ball in his glove.  Maybe he thought it got lost in the shuffle...but it's pretty apparent Wise never had the ball.  If you watch the replay, it's even more apparent..since a guy about 3 feet away from him has a "look what I found" moment and holds the ball up.

And throwing out Hannahan was just nuts.  They showed the conversation and Hannahan didn't look like he was reading DiMauro the riot act...just talking about the call. DIMAURO was the one who looked like he was blowing a gasket.

Yet again....replay would have solved the whole problem in seconds.

[GeorgeSteele]

OK, I'm done with the Youk talk.  I think I've sufficiently made my point.

That play by Wise last night...if I'm anyone involved in the Cleveland organization (or, really, any non-Yankee fan outside looking in), I'm ticked off. 

One more example of the umps screwing up.  The 3rd base ump NEVER EVEN asked Wise to see the ball in his glove.  Maybe he thought it got lost in the shuffle...but it's pretty apparent Wise never had the ball.  If you watch the replay, it's even more apparent..since a guy about 3 feet away from him has a "look what I found" moment and holds the ball up.

And throwing out Hannahan was just nuts.  They showed the conversation and Hannahan didn't look like he was reading DiMauro the riot act...just talking about the call. DIMAURO was the one who looked like he was blowing a gasket.

Yet again....replay would have solved the whole problem in seconds.

Absolutely, that was beyond a screw-up, that was just embarrassing.  Forget the replay, he emerged from the stands and jogged back to the dugout WITHOUT THE BALL!  At least ask to see the damn ball.

[pilferk]

Absolutely, that was beyond a screw-up, that was just embarrassing.  Forget the replay, he emerged from the stands and jogged back to the dugout WITHOUT THE BALL!  At least ask to see the damn ball.

Yup.

I mean sure...if some Yanks fan was smart (nefarious, cagey, whatever your word of choice) enough to put a ball (ANY ball) into his glove...fine.  You can't blame the ump for the trickery. But at LEAST CHECK.  And ask for an explanation if the balls not there.

[tim_m]

I've never seen anything like that. Never have i seen an ump not ask to see the ball on a play like that. I'm glad it went our way but it was just a terrible terrible call.

[tim_m]

Tough news day for the Yankees. First CC goes on the DL with muscle problem in his leg. He's expected back just after the break so that's not too bad. Then Pettitte takes a liner off his foot and has a fractured ankle and will be out 6 weeks. I hate freak accidents like that. At least we should have him back by late August at the latest.

[Falcon]

Tough news day for the Yankees. First CC goes on the DL with muscle problem in his leg. He's expected back just after the break so that's not too bad. Then Pettitte takes a liner off his foot and has a fractured ankle and will be out 6 weeks. I hate freak accidents like that. At least we should have him back by late August at the latest.

Tough day for sure, what's the replacement plan?

Are Betances and Banuelos on the radar anymore?

Haven't heard any mention of them in ages.

[Falcon]

The Mike Trout Show is headlining in Baltimore again tonight, already 2 for 3 and flashing serious leather.

Check it out:

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?c_id=ana&content_id=22643503&topic_id=8878746

[tim_m]

Tough news day for the Yankees. First CC goes on the DL with muscle problem in his leg. He's expected back just after the break so that's not too bad. Then Pettitte takes a liner off his foot and has a fractured ankle and will be out 6 weeks. I hate freak accidents like that. At least we should have him back by late August at the latest.

Tough day for sure, what's the replacement plan?

Are Betances and Banuelos on the radar anymore?

Haven't heard any mention of them in ages.

For ths short term its Garcia replacing Pettitte and Adam Warren is replacing Sabathia. I would assume if Warren pitches well he will take Pettitte's spot and Garcia back to the pen when Sabathia returns. Sabathia is only expected to miss two starts. So he might need one rehab start at the most i would think.

[tim_m]

Anyone have any thoughts on all the bats Josh Hamilton is throwing? Apparently he is even joking about it like its no big deal. I personally find nothing funny about throwing a wooden weapon. He's already broken someone's hand. Eventually he's going to seriously hurt someone or even kill them. Its becoming routine he does this, its not just a bat here and there. I understand it happens from time to time but its happening so much its becoming news on baseball tonight.

[Falcon]

The Mike Trout Show is headlining in Baltimore again tonight, already 2 for 3 and flashing serious leather.

Check it out:

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?c_id=ana&content_id=22643503&topic_id=8878746

This on Mike Trout since his recall from Buster Olney, talk about impact:

"Mike Trout 3-for-4 tonight; he's reached base 97 times via hit, BB or HBP in his first 53 games, with 47 runs scored."

[Falcon]

Anyone have any thoughts on all the bats Josh Hamilton is throwing? Apparently he is even joking about it like its no big deal. I personally find nothing funny about throwing a wooden weapon. He's already broken someone's hand. Eventually he's going to seriously hurt someone or even kill them. Its becoming routine he does this, its not just a bat here and there. I understand it happens from time to time but its happening so much its becoming news on baseball tonight.

I wasn't aware of it, not a good habit to be in though.

[tim_m]

The Mike Trout Show is headlining in Baltimore again tonight, already 2 for 3 and flashing serious leather.

Check it out:

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?c_id=ana&content_id=22643503&topic_id=8878746

This on Mike Trout since his recall from Buster Olney, talk about impact:

"Mike Trout 3-for-4 tonight; he's reached base 97 times via hit, BB or HBP in his first 53 games, with 47 runs scored."

Kid is the real deal and seems to be a star in the making.

[tim_m]

Anyone have any thoughts on all the bats Josh Hamilton is throwing? Apparently he is even joking about it like its no big deal. I personally find nothing funny about throwing a wooden weapon. He's already broken someone's hand. Eventually he's going to seriously hurt someone or even kill them. Its becoming routine he does this, its not just a bat here and there. I understand it happens from time to time but its happening so much its becoming news on baseball tonight.

I wasn't aware of it, not a good habit to be in though.

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2012/06/27/is-josh-hamilton-addicted-to-bat-tossing/ Its starting to happen with regularity. Just recently he nearly took out Adrian Beltre in the on deck circle. He's started taking his practice swings in the dugout cause of it. http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/texas-rangers/post/_/id/4886069/adrian-beltre-avoids-flying-bat-retreats-to-safety-of-dugout