NFL 2011 Season

[Bodhi]

^ I agree with Ray Lewis that he's obviously a great QB, I just don't think he's the best of his era (Manning), the best now (Rodgers) and definitely not the best I've seen play (I'd rank him behind Montana, Elway, Young, Marino and, yes, Favre). 

And I'm sure he's thrown many good deep balls, he just can't do it consistently like I think the historically great passers have.  And as valuable as he is to the Pats, I have a hard time believing they'd go 2-14 without him the way the Colts did without Manning this year.  Rex Ryan, one of the best defensive coaches in the league, said flat out that Brady is not as good as Manning, and I don't think he was just blowing his usual hot air. 

Sandman, the career YPA I think is due to 2 things -- his excellent completion rate and the Moss years. 

are you serious, you are going to take Rex Ryans word on how good Tom Brady is?  When Rex is open about how much he hates him?  Also comparing the Colts 2-14 season to anything the Pats would do is like apples and oranges.  Here is why.  Bill Belichick is a great coach, Jim Caldwell is/was the worst coach in football.  If Belichick were coaching the Colts, I can tell you right now they wouldn't have gone 2-14 and wouldn't have blatantly no showed some games(like the Saints game) 

Peyton Manning is a great regular season quarterback, probably the best of all-time, but his playoff performances leave a lot to be desired.  He is nowhere near Tom Brady's level in the playoffs.  His one Super Bowl win came against a Chicago team that had no business being there.

Brett Favre is the worst "great" quarterback in the history of the game, if that makes any sense.  How many times has he cost his teams playoff games with some of the worst interceptions in  playoff history?  I dont consider anyone who throws multiple picks routinely in big games a great quarterback...he is over rated.  His pick he threw against the Saints in the NFC title game 2 years ago is probably the worst decision I have ever seen a "great" player make.  The only other terrible ones I can think of were also committed by Favre, against the Eagles and in the NFC title game against the Giants.  Lets not forget about his 4 or 5 pick gem against the Cowboys in the NFC title game.

Aaron Rodgers has put together a nice couple of seasons...Brady has put together a ridiculous DECADE...come on man.  Honestly Joe Montana is the only guy I can comfortably say is ahead of Brady (for now).   Steve Young didn't play long enough, and Marino has no rings, you need rings to be in the greatest of all-time discussion. 

I'm not even a Patriots fan, I'm a Raiders fan.  This ridiculous run Brady has had all started with a fumble 11 years ago.  Even I, who should take issue with Tom Brady have to tip my hat to him, and recognize his greatness.  The guy is incredible.

[D]

^ I agree with Ray Lewis that he's obviously a great QB, I just don't think he's the best of his era (Manning), the best now (Rodgers) and definitely not the best I've seen play (I'd rank him behind Montana, Elway, Young, Marino and, yes, Favre). 

And I'm sure he's thrown many good deep balls, he just can't do it consistently like I think the historically great passers have.  And as valuable as he is to the Pats, I have a hard time believing they'd go 2-14 without him the way the Colts did without Manning this year.  Rex Ryan, one of the best defensive coaches in the league, said flat out that Brady is not as good as Manning, and I don't think he was just blowing his usual hot air. 

Sandman, the career YPA I think is due to 2 things -- his excellent completion rate and the Moss years. 

are you serious, you are going to take Rex Ryans word on how good Tom Brady is?  When Rex is open about how much he hates him?  Also comparing the Colts 2-14 season to anything the Pats would do is like apples and oranges.  Here is why.  Bill Belichick is a great coach, Jim Caldwell is/was the worst coach in football.  If Belichick were coaching the Colts, I can tell you right now they wouldn't have gone 2-14 and wouldn't have blatantly no showed some games(like the Saints game) 

Peyton Manning is a great regular season quarterback, probably the best of all-time, but his playoff performances leave a lot to be desired.  He is nowhere near Tom Brady's level in the playoffs.  His one Super Bowl win came against a Chicago team that had no business being there.

Brett Favre is the worst "great" quarterback in the history of the game, if that makes any sense.  How many times has he cost his teams playoff games with some of the worst interceptions in  playoff history?  I dont consider anyone who throws multiple picks routinely in big games a great quarterback...he is over rated.  His pick he threw against the Saints in the NFC title game 2 years ago is probably the worst decision I have ever seen a "great" player make.  The only other terrible ones I can think of were also committed by Favre, against the Eagles and in the NFC title game against the Giants.  Lets not forget about his 4 or 5 pick gem against the Cowboys in the NFC title game.

Aaron Rodgers has put together a nice couple of seasons...Brady has put together a ridiculous DECADE...come on man.  Honestly Joe Montana is the only guy I can comfortably say is ahead of Brady (for now).   Steve Young didn't play long enough, and Marino has no rings, you need rings to be in the greatest of all-time discussion. 

I'm not even a Patriots fan, I'm a Raiders fan.  This ridiculous run Brady has had all started with a fumble 11 years ago.  Even I, who should take issue with Tom Brady have to tip my hat to him, and recognize his greatness.  The guy is incredible.

Thats actually not true

Going into this Playoff.. Manning actually had higher QB Rating than Brady.

[Bodhi]

Going into this Playoff.. Manning actually had higher QB Rating than Brady.

haha really? That's what you got?  A QB rating?   You can take your QB rating and put it up against this...

TOM BRADY in the Playoffs.

    NFL record for most consecutive wins in post season: 10 (broke record of Green Bay's Bart Starr).
    Most consecutive post season wins (college and professional combined): 12
    3 Super Bowl victories
    2 Super Bowl MVP awards
    Most completions in a Super Bowl (32 in Super Bowl XXXVIII)
    Most career Super Bowl completions (100 in four games)
    Highest completion percentage in a single game, minimum 20 attempts (26 of 28, 92.9%, against Jacksonville in 2007 AFC Divisional round)[80]
    Most touchdowns passes in a playoff game(tied with Steve Young & Daryle Lamonica): 6, January 14, 2012
    Most touchdowns passes in a playoff game half: 5, January 14, 2012


Most importantly, Manning is 9-10, Brady is 15-5

[GeorgeSteele]

^OK, how about we do Brady 2001-2004 vs. Brady 2005-2011:

Brady 2001-2004 - 3 SB's, 10-0 playoff record, 0 All-Pros, 0 MVPs

Brady 2005-2011 - 0 SBs, 5-5 playoff record, 3 years All-Pro, 2 MVPs

I don't think anyone who has regularly watched football the past 10 years can say with a straight face that Brady 2001-2004 is better than Brady 2005-2011.  That being the case, isn't that the best evidence that simply counting SBs is not a fair barometer on how good a QB is? 

[Jbat81]

George, good point. Brady has won with great defense... '07 great offense didn't help...

[Bodhi]

^OK, how about we do Brady 2001-2004 vs. Brady 2005-2011:

Brady 2001-2004 - 3 SB's, 10-0 playoff record, 0 All-Pros, 0 MVPs

Brady 2005-2011 - 0 SBs, 5-5 playoff record, 3 years All-Pro, 2 MVPs

I don't think anyone who has regularly watched football the past 10 years can say with a straight face that Brady 2001-2004 is better than Brady 2005-2011.  That being the case, isn't that the best evidence that simply counting SBs is not a fair barometer on how good a QB is? 

I wasn't only counting Super Bowls, the guy has had some awesome stats as well.  You have to take Tom Brady's whole career, you cant mix and match years to twist the stats so they say what you want them to.  He was also the Super Bowl MVP twice in those first 3 Super Bowls, it's not like he was having a defense carry him.

Doesn't the fact that you guys have to put so much effort to try and make the guy look bad in fact tell you what an all time great he is?

[faldor]

^OK, how about we do Brady 2001-2004 vs. Brady 2005-2011:

Brady 2001-2004 - 3 SB's, 10-0 playoff record, 0 All-Pros, 0 MVPs

Brady 2005-2011 - 0 SBs, 5-5 playoff record, 3 years All-Pro, 2 MVPs

I don't think anyone who has regularly watched football the past 10 years can say with a straight face that Brady 2001-2004 is better than Brady 2005-2011.  That being the case, isn't that the best evidence that simply counting SBs is not a fair barometer on how good a QB is? 

I wasn't only counting Super Bowls, the guy has had some awesome stats as well.  You have to take Tom Brady's whole career, you cant mix and match years to twist the stats so they say what you want them to.  He was also the Super Bowl MVP twice in those first 3 Super Bowls, it's not like he was having a defense carry him.

Doesn't the fact that you guys have to put so much effort to try and make the guy look bad in fact tell you what an all time great he is?

Yeah, honestly you guys sound ridiculous.  We get it, you hate Tom Brady.  Leave it at that.  You're not convincing anyone that he's not a good QB.  He's one of the all time greats.  He won 3 Super Bowls when the Patriots were a well balanced team.  However, Brady didn't have near the weapons that a Manning, Montana, Favre, you name the QB.  He came oh so close to taking the Patriots to the Super Bowl in 2006 with RECHE FREAKING CALDWELL as his #1 receiver.  So give me a break with all this crap about how he's overrated.  He's not the GM, he's not responsible for building the team around him.

Here's the problem George.  You actually make a fair point, Brady has not won a Super Bowl with a bad defense behind him.  That is true.  But the examples you're using to emphasize that fact aren't helping your case.  Sober Times did a great job picking it apart.  Aaron Rogers won a Super Bowl last year with a very good defense behind him.  You think Brett Favre is better than Brady, which is laughable by the way.  Well he never won a Super Bowl without a good defense behind him either.  The ONLY 2 QB's who you can say have done such a thing would be Brees and Manning, and as Sober Times pointed out, Indy's D played very well in their playoff run and that New Orleans D I believe led the league in takeaways that year.  And once again, if it weren't for RECHE FREAKING CALDWELL dropping a sure fire TD pass, it would have been the Patriots hoisting the Lombardi trophy in 2006 and not the Colts.

I will grant you, the Patriots defense has regressed every year since 2004.  Patriot fans used to make fun of Manning and the Colts because they would always dominate the regular season and fold in the playoffs.  Well, the Patriots have turned into the Colts.  They're built on offense, dominate in the regular season, and until this season have been ousted in the post-season.  We'll see what happens on Sunday.  Tom needs to play better though than he did against the Ravens.  Another outing like that won't cut it.

[faldor]

George, good point. Brady has won with great defense... '07 great offense didn't help...

You mean that great defense that held the Carolina Panthers to a paltry 29 points in Super Bowl XXXVIII.  You got me there, Brady wasn't needed in that one.  He could just sit back and watch his defense do the work.  Just for kicks though he went on to complete 32 of 48 passes for 354 yards and three touchdowns.

Oh, here comes D with his, "yeah but he needed his kicker to bail him out" comment.  Let me just save you the time D.  Not sure when a QB has ever won a game without the help of his teammates.  You point to a time and I'll concede, but you'll be hard pressed.

[sandman]

and if we're gonna nitpick brady's career, let's remember that the giants were damn lucky to beat the patriots. that catch was freaking ridiculous. if tebow had thrown it we'd all be going to church every week. and without it, brady completes a perfect season. he put him team in a position to have a perfect season.

now i know you can't really make those type of arguments. the results are the results. but like i said, if you guys are gonna nitpick on things that don't really make sense, you can argue how his career was really close to actually being better. and if brady had gone 19-0 and 4-0 in superbowls, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. because it would be clear to everyone that it would be a waste of time. he'd be the greatest ever. and it took a miracle catch to prevent that.

also, not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but brady had a perfect regular season. that actually does count for something. and if they pats win sunday, the patriots team will be considered a 10+ year dynasty, with a 4-1 SB record and a perfect regular season mixed in. and the primary constant through all the personnel changes is brady (and belicheck of course).

for the record, i am not a brady fan and i hate belicheck. the franchise probably cheated to gain an edge vs my eagles in the SB. also, i won a big payoff in a block pool in the last pats-giants SB. so although i didn't have a rooting interest in the game, what happened in the last several minutes is exactly what i needed to have happen to win. so i was cheering as big as any giants fan when tyree made that catch.

[gilee7]

Arguments like this are completely asinine and pointless. It's impossible to ever truly know who is the greatest of all time in any sport. The only thing you can do is judge a player based on their accomplishments, and the fact is, when Brady retires, he will probably have the most impressive r?sum? of any QB in history.

[GeorgeSteele]

Yeah, honestly you guys sound ridiculous.  We get it, you hate Tom Brady.  Leave it at that.  You're not convincing anyone that he's not a good QB. 

C'mon, you know I never said he wasn't a good QB, I flat out said he was a great QB, but there are other great QBs besides him during this era and people can reasonably disagree on which ones were better among that group.  What's ridiculous is that it's not acceptable for some of you that anyone rank a handful of QBs ahead of him. 

[Bodhi]

Yeah, honestly you guys sound ridiculous.  We get it, you hate Tom Brady.  Leave it at that.  You're not convincing anyone that he's not a good QB. 

C'mon, you know I never said he wasn't a good QB, I flat out said he was a great QB, but there are other great QBs besides him during this era and people can reasonably disagree on which ones were better among that group.  What's ridiculous is that it's not acceptable for some of you that anyone rank a handful of QBs ahead of him. 

Its definitely acceptable to rank a handful of QB's ahead of him, as long as one of them is not Brett Favre.  I think Elway, Marino, or Montana are definitely worth having conversations about, not Manning, Favre or Young though.

[LunsJail]

Keep this in mind guys. 22 guys will take the field on either side, not counting special teams. It won't just come down to who is the better all-time QB or even the better postseason QB.

I think people are really giving Pats too much credit based on past achievements. These guys squeaked by a less than great Ravens team, their only win against a team with a winning record all season.

[GeorgeSteele]

Its definitely acceptable to rank a handful of QB's ahead of him, as long as one of them is not Brett Favre.  I think Elway, Marino, or Montana are definitely worth having conversations about, not Manning, Favre or Young though.

Brett Favre was a 6-time All-Pro selection and 3-time MVP.  His legacy gets shit on because of some bonehead plays everyone remembers (and a few bad idea text messages), but he let's not forget that far more often, the risks he took won games for his team.  The guy was better than anyone at pulling out a huge play out of seemingly nothing.  The guy played with balls no fear and I respect the fact that throughout his career his approach was not to "take what the defense gives him" but to take what was his.  Again, I know that often led to disaster, but more often, it was magic.  

As for Manning, his career stats are in another planet.  If he had played for an extended period with a defense as good as the Pats 01-04, I'm sure he'd have another SB or 2.  Everyone points to the 9-10 playoff record, but what I find most impressive is that he had his team in 19 playoff games despite being saddled with a shit defense his whole career. 

As for Young, the short career hurts him, agreed, but during his prime, I don't think anyone played QB as well as he did.  He could do it all, throw deep, throw with accuracy, run like Vick, he was amazing. 

[Bodhi]

Its definitely acceptable to rank a handful of QB's ahead of him, as long as one of them is not Brett Favre.  I think Elway, Marino, or Montana are definitely worth having conversations about, not Manning, Favre or Young though.

Brett Favre was a 6-time All-Pro selection and 3-time MVP.  His legacy gets shit on because of some bonehead plays everyone remembers (and a few bad idea text messages), but he let's not forget that far more often, the risks he took won games for his team.  The guy was better than anyone at pulling out a huge play out of seemingly nothing.  The guy played with balls no fear and I respect the fact that throughout his career his approach was not to "take what the defense gives him" but to take what was his.  Again, I know that often led to disaster, but more often, it was magic.  

As for Manning, his career stats are in another planet.  If he had played for an extended period with a defense as good as the Pats 01-04, I'm sure he'd have another SB or 2.  Everyone points to the 9-10 playoff record, but what I find most impressive is that he had his team in 19 playoff games despite being saddled with a shit defense his whole career. 

As for Young, the short career hurts him, agreed, but during his prime, I don't think anyone played QB as well as he did.  He could do it all, throw deep, throw with accuracy, run like Vick, he was amazing. 

Absolutely agree with Steve Young.  His career was just too short, but that guy was incredible.  I disagree with Favre, because I think he hurt his team more than he helped them in big spots..he won 2 NFC title games, but blew 3 of them with his mistakes..Thats not even counting his other playoff failures.  No doubt, for 3 years in the 90's Bret Favre was on another planet, but after that he was tremendously inconsistent.  Much like I hate teams like the Saints who are all offense and zero defense, I don't like QB's who throw a ton of TD's but nearly match that in the amount of Pick's he threw.  Favre has the most picks in NFL history to go along with TD's.

As far as making something out of nothing, he did do that, but I think Big Ben is the best I have ever seen when it comes to making something out of a broken play.

[GeorgeSteele]

^ Agreed on Big Ben, some of the plays he pulls off are just awesome.  Though by most accounts he's a 1st-class d-bag, there's no denying he's a great QB.   

[Bodhi]

^ Agreed on Big Ben, some of the plays he pulls off are just awesome.  Though by most accounts he's a 1st-class d-bag, there's no denying he's a great QB.   

he's a jock, they are all douchebags, from 8th grade on. 

[GeorgeSteele]

^ Agreed on Big Ben, some of the plays he pulls off are just awesome.  Though by most accounts he's a 1st-class d-bag, there's no denying he's a great QB.   

he's a jock, they are all douchebags, from 8th grade on. 

   I need to remember that more often.

[Jbat81]

I know Brady is great. I guess i "look for stuff" because I live in New Englad(RI) and Im a Giants fan... But I've always felt, specially after the Super Bowl XXII, that Brady is one of the worst QB to react to pressure. Kinda like that SB. To me, he has, or has had, one the best OL for a long time. With that said, he's Def in the TOP 5 all-time... IMO, Marino is the Greatest...

[Bodhi]

I know Brady is great. I guess i "look for stuff" because I live in New Englad(RI) and Im a Giants fan... But I've always felt, specially after the Super Bowl XXII, that Brady is one of the worst QB to react to pressure. Kinda like that SB. To me, he has, or has had, one the best OL for a long time. With that said, he's Def in the TOP 5 all-time... IMO, Marino is the Greatest...

yeah I hear that a lot how he reacted to pressure poorly in the last Super Bowl, and I couldn't disagree more.  He got the shit knocked out of him that game and still found a way to throw a championship winning TD pass to Randy Moss with less than 3 minutes to go, only to have his defense blow it for him.  People are acting like he turned the ball over 5 times in that game and the Pats got blown out.