NFL 2011 Season

[pilferk]

Sticking with picking against your team since it's worked to this point, eh? 

I'd be surprised if the game was decided by more than a touchdown.  I guess if there was a blowout, I'd have to think the Giants would come out on top, but I just don't see that happening.  I think it's going to be a back and forth game, just like their earlier meeting this season.  I keep going back and forth myself.  I wasn't all that confident when the matchup first came to fruition, but gained confidence throughout last week.  Now tonight I've regressed a bit.  The Gronkowski injury scares me, and puzzles me at the same time.  I watched Sound FX from last weeks game and Gronk looked and sounded fine post injury, but that could just be the initial adrenaline keeping him going.  It's obvious the guy is hurt and I'd be surprised if he was close to 100%.  Hopefully they get the good medicine and shoot him up nice before kickoff and it's enough to last 4 hours or so.

My initial pick was Pats 27-24, so I'll stick with that, but I agree that the Giants are probably the better overall team.  They're certainly more balanced, obviously better on defense.  The Patriots normally have a huge advantage over teams in the QB/coach department, but that isn't the case here.  Eli has been as good, if not better than Brady of late, and Coughlin is a damn good coach.  I'll say one thing, I think both these teams have already exceeded their own expectations.  The Giants barely made the playoffs, and despite the Patriots lofty record not many people gave them a shot due to their historically bad defense.  Yet, here they are, ready to do battle to decide a champion.  It should be a good one.  I might end up getting blacked out drunk during the game.  The one question is, will it be a happy drunk, or a depressed one?  Something tells me, there will be many twists and turns.

I picked against them once against GB......which, quite frankly, I'd still make.

I didn't pick the Falcons game....just said I wouldn't put money on either team.   Had I picked, I would have picked the Giants to win by 2.  Turns out...they were better than I thought.

Picked their game against the 9'ers as a push (which, lets face it..it was..it went to OT and was decided by a batched punt return after both teams couldn't move the ball in OT).

It's not about "working"...I'm not a superstitious fan.  It's about who I actually think will win the game.

On the Gronk injury...high ankle sprains are TOUGH.  I've had them, and seen/observed patients who've had them (not clinically...I'm an IT guy).  The problem is: It's REALLY hard to localize the pain, and it's just as hard to get a needle to the spot (because of angle, etc).  It works...but not well.  And 2 weeks is not usually enough time for it to heal to the point where you can be 100% mobile again (never mind having to push back against a defender).

[pilferk]

The competition turned out to be soft, but the Patriots don't make the schedule.
Spygate is beyond tired.

When the entire world was watching, the Patriots were really under the microscope, they went out and manhandled the entire league, rattling off 18 wins in a row. Sure, they lost the game that meant the most, which what would have been the exclamation point on the big fuck you, but it nonetheless should have put to rest any naive notion that the Pats had built a dynasty with a video camera. If it didn't, the fact that other teams admitted to using the same practice should have helped.

I think you know better, Pilferk, but touche. You have officially stirred the pot.
The gloves are off! haha

To be clear:

They were meant as "rah rah dittohead" type fan comments...someplace I don't normally go.  I was, in fact, just stirring the pot (and, not to take away from the burn points....I don't actually buy into either one).

With this game...I couldn't help it, though.

I will say this, though:  Spygate hangs over this team (and this coach) like the Sword of Damocles.  Unless they manage to win one (and they might, this Sunday) without one...it's always going to be a footnote for the main players on (and coaching) this team.

[faldor]

Sticking with picking against your team since it's worked to this point, eh? 

I'd be surprised if the game was decided by more than a touchdown.  I guess if there was a blowout, I'd have to think the Giants would come out on top, but I just don't see that happening.  I think it's going to be a back and forth game, just like their earlier meeting this season.  I keep going back and forth myself.  I wasn't all that confident when the matchup first came to fruition, but gained confidence throughout last week.  Now tonight I've regressed a bit.  The Gronkowski injury scares me, and puzzles me at the same time.  I watched Sound FX from last weeks game and Gronk looked and sounded fine post injury, but that could just be the initial adrenaline keeping him going.  It's obvious the guy is hurt and I'd be surprised if he was close to 100%.  Hopefully they get the good medicine and shoot him up nice before kickoff and it's enough to last 4 hours or so.

My initial pick was Pats 27-24, so I'll stick with that, but I agree that the Giants are probably the better overall team.  They're certainly more balanced, obviously better on defense.  The Patriots normally have a huge advantage over teams in the QB/coach department, but that isn't the case here.  Eli has been as good, if not better than Brady of late, and Coughlin is a damn good coach.  I'll say one thing, I think both these teams have already exceeded their own expectations.  The Giants barely made the playoffs, and despite the Patriots lofty record not many people gave them a shot due to their historically bad defense.  Yet, here they are, ready to do battle to decide a champion.  It should be a good one.  I might end up getting blacked out drunk during the game.  The one question is, will it be a happy drunk, or a depressed one?  Something tells me, there will be many twists and turns.

I picked against them once against GB......which, quite frankly, I'd still make.

I didn't pick the Falcons game....just said I wouldn't put money on either team.   Had I picked, I would have picked the Giants to win by 2.  Turns out...they were better than I thought.

Picked their game against the 9'ers as a push (which, lets face it..it was..it went to OT and was decided by a batched punt return after both teams couldn't move the ball in OT).

It's not about "working"...I'm not a superstitious fan.  It's about who I actually think will win the game.

On the Gronk injury...high ankle sprains are TOUGH.  I've had them, and seen/observed patients who've had them (not clinically...I'm an IT guy).  The problem is: It's REALLY hard to localize the pain, and it's just as hard to get a needle to the spot (because of angle, etc).  It works...but not well.  And 2 weeks is not usually enough time for it to heal to the point where you can be 100% mobile again (never mind having to push back against a defender).

I get it, like I said, I think it'll be a close game.  I think the teams are quite evenly matched, it could really go either way.  So with that being said, as a fan of either team, you have to believe your team can win.  I'm not CONFIDENT that the Patriots will win, but I know they can.  I wouldn't put a large wager on this game regardless because I don't have a strong feeling either way.  All in all, I'd be betting with my heart, which is never a good thing.

As for Gronk, I've come to grips that he won't be 100% but will play.  I hope I'm wrong, but it looks like it's trending that way.  I doubt he'll have the explosiveness or the big play ability on a bum ankle.  I'm hopeful that he can still be somewhat of a factor though.  He could still be helpful as a blocker, something he's damn good at, and running short routes.  He probably won't be able to stretch the field as usual, but he is still a mismatch due to his sheer size so he could still be used on short routes and in the redzone.  Obviously not an ideal situation, and they're not nearly as good on offense if that's the case, but it would be better than nothing.  Someone is going to have to step it up as a "stretch the field" kind of guy, who honestly the Patriots don't really have.  Aaron Hernandez or Deion Branch would probably be the best options though, and it's not something they have to do consistently, just enough to keep the defense honest.  I can't believe some people are still waiting and hoping that Ochocinco can be that guy.  Yeah, the guy has laid in the weeds all year so he could break out in the biggest game of the season?  I find that extremely hard to believe.  I gave up on Chad about 2 months ago.

[sandman]

I really want to pick the Giants by 3.  I think their pass rush can put Brady on his heels (which is when, historically, he's not been as "Brady-like".  I think Eli can handle the Pats defense (because, like to admit it or not, neither the Broncos nor the Ravens had GREAT offenses).  I think the Giants receivers can handle the Pats secondary.  I think the injury to Gronk, assuming he's as limited as everyone thinks he's going to be, will hurt the Pats A LOT.  I think match ups, largely, favor the Giants.

I really want to pick the Giants.

But I'm not going to.

Pats by 3.

Because the Giants won the regular season game, because this Giants team has been inconsistent (and yes, health was a factor) all season long, and because I just can't bring myself to believe that THIS team...a team I cheer for every week...can put together another near perfect game.  And because the Pats have Tom Brady who, after last week, is ticked off and has something to prove.  I don't think he's got Eli's grit....and I still can't stand the guy...but I think he's the best player in the game on Sunday and all his O-line has to do is keep him upright.

I pray I'm wrong.  I'll be screaming my lungs out for the G-men.  NOBODY on this board will be happier than me if I am wrong.  But there you go.

wow! i'm shocked. i thought you had alot of love for your team.

i'm with gilee on this one. it's really hard for me to envision the pats winning. i think the giants will be in control most of the game. they will be able to move the ball much easier than the pats, and the pats will be fighting an uphill battle all game. not sure the final score will reflect it, but giants win convincingly. i'll say Giants 27-20.

[sandman]

I'm gonna get CREAMED for this, but...as a Giants fan (and for no other reason than the "burn" points)...I gotta say 2 things:

Pats have beat ONE team, this year, who finished the season with a winning record (the Ravens).

Brady+Spygate=3
Brady-Spygate (so far)=0.

 

i like that!

i'm still kinda pissed about that eagles-pats SB. but the pats didn't even play that great of a game - they were ready to be beat that day. the eagles just played a bad game. i can't even jokingly say spygate had anything to do with that one. still funny though.

[pilferk]

wow! i'm shocked. i thought you had alot of love for your team.

i'm with gilee on this one. it's really hard for me to envision the pats winning. i think the giants will be in control most of the game. they will be able to move the ball much easier than the pats, and the pats will be fighting an uphill battle all game. not sure the final score will reflect it, but giants win convincingly. i'll say Giants 27-20.

Loving them, thinking they can win, and wanting them to win <> thinking they WILL win.

I'm a HUGE UCONN Huskies fan.  I wouldn't have picked them to win the NCAA Tourney last year, either (well, maybe on an alternate sheet).  Doesn't mean I wasn't ecstatic when they did.

[pilferk]

I get it, like I said, I think it'll be a close game.  I think the teams are quite evenly matched, it could really go either way.  So with that being said, as a fan of either team, you have to believe your team can win.  I'm not CONFIDENT that the Patriots will win, but I know they can.  I wouldn't put a large wager on this game regardless because I don't have a strong feeling either way.  All in all, I'd be betting with my heart, which is never a good thing.

As for Gronk, I've come to grips that he won't be 100% but will play.  I hope I'm wrong, but it looks like it's trending that way.  I doubt he'll have the explosiveness or the big play ability on a bum ankle.  I'm hopeful that he can still be somewhat of a factor though.  He could still be helpful as a blocker, something he's damn good at, and running short routes.  He probably won't be able to stretch the field as usual, but he is still a mismatch due to his sheer size so he could still be used on short routes and in the redzone.  Obviously not an ideal situation, and they're not nearly as good on offense if that's the case, but it would be better than nothing.  Someone is going to have to step it up as a "stretch the field" kind of guy, who honestly the Patriots don't really have.  Aaron Hernandez or Deion Branch would probably be the best options though, and it's not something they have to do consistently, just enough to keep the defense honest.  I can't believe some people are still waiting and hoping that Ochocinco can be that guy.  Yeah, the guy has laid in the weeds all year so he could break out in the biggest game of the season?  I find that extremely hard to believe.  I gave up on Chad about 2 months ago.

It's the blocking you have to worry about.  He's going to have a hard time cutting, planting, or bracing against that ankle...stability is the bitch.  Trying to push around another mammoth person, who's pushing in the opposite direction....that's going to be hard.

He can be effective (especially early, while whatever pain management he can get from the drugs is working) over the middle on short routes.  Beyond that....I don't think you can expect much.

And if he tweaks it....pats only carry 2 TE's on their roster, right?  So he goes down, they're playing with one TE the rest of the way.

On Ochocinco...I 1/2 forgot he was even on the team.

[GeorgeSteele]

I think this one will be a high-scoring affair, with the Giants winning it 37-27.   MVP to Eli Manning.  

Then, in a few weeks, Peyton Manning gets released.  

[pilferk]

I think this one will be a high-scoring affair, with the Giants winning it 37-27.   MVP to Eli Manning.  

Then, in a few weeks, Peyton Manning gets released.  

If Eli wins another SB and SB MVP (over Brady) he would not only be on the same planet as Brady, he'd have flown across his country, driven across his state, biked across his town, walked down his driveway, , rang his doorbell...and kicked Brady in the teeth when he opened the door.

Brady would still be better...but he'd likely need a good dentist and a plastic surgeon.

[GeorgeSteele]

I think this one will be a high-scoring affair, with the Giants winning it 37-27.   MVP to Eli Manning.  

Then, in a few weeks, Peyton Manning gets released.  

If Eli wins another SB and SB MVP (over Brady) he would not only be on the same planet as Brady, he'd have flown across his country, driven across his state, biked across his town, walked down his driveway, , rang his doorbell...and kicked Brady in the teeth when he opened the door.

Brady would still be better...but he'd likely need a good dentist and a plastic surgeon.

Tom Brady's a hair-plugged tool.  Everyone brings up the 3 SBs but fuck him.  Bradshaw won 4 and he was overrated too.  Rex Ryan undressed Brady in last year's playoff game -- rush nobody, take away the dink and dunk and he's very limited because the guy can barely move and is not a threat to throw deep now that he doesn't have an in-his-prime Randy Moss to chuck it up to.  I'm on the fence about Eli, but I'd take the other Manning, Brees, Rodgers and Roethlisberger over Brady anytime. 

[sandman]

wow! i'm shocked. i thought you had alot of love for your team.

i'm with gilee on this one. it's really hard for me to envision the pats winning. i think the giants will be in control most of the game. they will be able to move the ball much easier than the pats, and the pats will be fighting an uphill battle all game. not sure the final score will reflect it, but giants win convincingly. i'll say Giants 27-20.

Loving them, thinking they can win, and wanting them to win <> thinking they WILL win.

I'm a HUGE UCONN Huskies fan.  I wouldn't have picked them to win the NCAA Tourney last year, either (well, maybe on an alternate sheet).  Doesn't mean I wasn't ecstatic when they did.

i hear ya, and was just kidding. but i kinda remember you saying you couldn't pick against the yankees cause you love them too much. which would make sense because i sense you are a much bigger baseball/yankees fan than football/giants fan.

[pilferk]

i hear ya, and was just kidding. but i kinda remember you saying you couldn't pick against the yankees cause you love them too much. which would make sense because i sense you are a much bigger baseball/yankees fan than football/giants fan.

Baseball is my first love, yanks are my favorite team in any sport.  They're probably the ONLY team I'm a fan of that I won't pick against.  Just can't do it.

NFL Football (and the Giants) and College Basketball (Huskies), in that order, would be next up.  Last would be the NBA, and the Celts.

I'll take any chance I can to talk baseball.

Football and College B-balll...I watch TONS of it..but I don't tend to discuss it til the playoffs/tourney.  The NBA...I watch pieces of the regular season...but it's so completely irrelevant that it's hard to get "into" it.  I swear the NBA season doesn't really START until mid-May.

[LongGoneDay]

I think this one will be a high-scoring affair, with the Giants winning it 37-27.   MVP to Eli Manning.  

Then, in a few weeks, Peyton Manning gets released.  

If Eli wins another SB and SB MVP (over Brady) he would not only be on the same planet as Brady, he'd have flown across his country, driven across his state, biked across his town, walked down his driveway, , rang his doorbell...and kicked Brady in the teeth when he opened the door.

Brady would still be better...but he'd likely need a good dentist and a plastic surgeon.

Tom Brady's a hair-plugged tool.  Everyone brings up the 3 SBs but fuck him.  Bradshaw won 4 and he was overrated too.  Rex Ryan undressed Brady in last year's playoff game -- rush nobody, take away the dink and dunk and he's very limited because the guy can barely move and is not a threat to throw deep now that he doesn't have an in-his-prime Randy Moss to chuck it up to.  I'm on the fence about Eli, but I'd take the other Manning, Brees, Rodgers and Roethlisberger over Brady anytime. 

People bring up his 3 SB rings because that's what players play for (and probably a bit do do with the money) and what their legacies are based on.
3 is pretty impressive. If he gets his 4th, there will be a lot of people saying he's the best ever. I personally think Montana is the best ever, but Brady is certainly in the discussion.

Tough to say he's overrated. He's got a few accolades that don't favor your argument.

NFL records
Wins
Fewest starts to achieve 100 regular-season wins as a starter (131 starts)
Most wins with one head coach (124, Bill Belichick).[77]
Most consecutive wins, postseason: 10 (2001, 2003, 2004, 2005)
Most consecutive wins, regular season and postseason: 21 (2003?2004)
Most consecutive wins in regular-season home games: 31 (2006?2011)
Most seasons finishing 8?0 at home: 5 (2003, 2004, 2007, 2009, 2010)
Only quarterback to start and win 3 Super Bowls before his 28th birthday
Touchdowns
Most passing touchdowns, regular season: 50 (2007)
Most passing touchdowns, regular season and postseason combined: 56 (2007)
Most touchdown passes, month: 20 (October 2007)
Most passing touchdowns, quarter: 5 (second quarter vs. Tennessee, October 18, 2009)
Largest touchdown to interception differential: +42 (2007)
Highest touchdown to interception ratio, season: 9.0 to 1 (36 TD/4 INT, 2010)
Highest touchdown pass?interception ratio, career: 2.52-1 (260 TD/103 INT)
Most games with 3+ touchdown passes, regular season: 12 (2007)
Most consecutive games with 5+ touchdown passes: 2 (2007) (tied with Daunte Culpepper)
Most consecutive games with 3+ touchdown passes: 10 (2007)
Most consecutive games with 2+ touchdown passes: 13 (tied with Peyton Manning)
Most consecutive games with 2+ touchdown passes and no interceptions: 9 (2010, October 24 ? 2011, September 12)
Most games with 1 touchdown pass and no interceptions, season: 14 (2010)
Most games with 2 touchdown passes and no interceptions, season: 11 (2010)
Most games with 3 touchdown passes and no interceptions, season: 8 (2007)
Most games with 4 touchdown passes and no interceptions, season: 5 (2007)
Most games with 4 touchdown passes and no interceptions, career: 12 ? tied with Brett Favre
Most games with 5 touchdown passes and no interceptions, season: 3 (2007)
Most games with 5 touchdown passes and no interceptions, career: 4 ? tied with Peyton Manning
Most games with 6 touchdown passes and no interceptions, career 2 ? tied with Peyton Manning
Completions
Highest single-game completion percentage, postseason: 92.9% (vs. Jacksonville, January 12, 2008)[78]
Most completions in a Super Bowl: 32 - tied with Drew Brees (XXXVIII)
Most career Super Bowl completions: 100 (XXXVI, XXXVIII, XXXIX, XLII)
Largest completion?interception ratio, season: 81.0-1 (324-4) (minimum 150 completions), 2010
Most games with 20 completions and no interceptions, season: 10 (2007)
Most games with 30 completions and no interceptions, career: 9 ? tied with Drew Brees
Most games with 30 completions and no interceptions, season: 5 (2007)
Most games with 50 pass attempts and no interceptions, career: 3
Yards
Largest passing yards?interception ratio, career: 337.3-1 (34,744-103) (minimum 20,000 passing yards)
Largest passing yards?interception ratio, season: 975.0-1 (3,900-4) (minimum 2,000 passing yards), 2010
Most games with 300 yards passing and no interceptions, season: 8 (2007)
Interception-free streaks and interception percentage
Most consecutive pass attempts to start a career without an interception: 162 (2000?2001)
Most consecutive pass attempts without an interception, regular season: 358 (2010, October 24 ? 2011, September 12)
Third-lowest interception percentage (interceptions per attempt), career: 2.19% (Aaron Rodgers ranks first @ 1.99%; Neil O'Donnell is second @ 2.11%)

[GeorgeSteele]

^Teams win Super Bowls, not QBs.  My favorite of those stats you cited is the one where NEIL O'DONNELL is second.  I'm aware of what his strengths are as a QB, no need for me to acknowledge them while the rest of the world drools all over the guy, but he has a fair amount of weaknesses that I think discount him from not just the GOAT discussion (he's not even close) but the best of his era. 

[pilferk]

^Teams win Super Bowls, not QBs.  My favorite of those stats you cited is the one where NEIL O'DONNELL is second.  I'm aware of what his strengths are as a QB, no need for me to acknowledge them while the rest of the world drools all over the guy, but he has a fair amount of weaknesses that I think discount him from not just the GOAT discussion (he's not even close) but the best of his era. 

It's also worth pointing out, at least, that Brady has compiled those stats in a league that is a LOT more "QB friendly" than the league Montana (and others) played in.

[LongGoneDay]

^Teams win Super Bowls, not QBs.  My favorite of those stats you cited is the one where NEIL O'DONNELL is second.  I'm aware of what his strengths are as a QB, no need for me to acknowledge them while the rest of the world drools all over the guy, but he has a fair amount of weaknesses that I think discount him from not just the GOAT discussion (he's not even close) but the best of his era. 

Teams win championships, no question, but the QB plays a pretty significant role.

You may not like him, but he IS in the discussion. The stats that he has compiled (with the help of his teammates) put him among the greatest of all time.

[LongGoneDay]

^Teams win Super Bowls, not QBs.  My favorite of those stats you cited is the one where NEIL O'DONNELL is second.  I'm aware of what his strengths are as a QB, no need for me to acknowledge them while the rest of the world drools all over the guy, but he has a fair amount of weaknesses that I think discount him from not just the GOAT discussion (he's not even close) but the best of his era. 

It's also worth pointing out, at least, that Brady has compiled those stats in a league that is a LOT more "QB friendly" than the league Montana (and others) played in.

True, but he's putting up the numbers, and winning championships. What else would you have him do? He doesn't make the rules.
Eli, Brees, Rodgers, Ben are playing in the same era, but they have not enjoyed the same success.
QBs with better supporting casts than Brady are sitting at home right now and will be watching the SB on TV.

Look, it's easy to find ways to discredit people you're not a fan of. No one is immune to it.

Montana is the best in my opinion, but Brady didn't have the luxury of playing with Jerry Rice, either.

I get it though. People tear down winners, and Brady leads the team with the highest winning percentage (or close to it) in popular sports since he came into the league.

[pilferk]

True, but he's putting up the numbers, and winning championships. What else would you have him do? He doesn't make the rules.
Eli, Brees, Rodgers, Ben are playing in the same era, but they have not enjoyed the same success.
QBs with better supporting casts than Brady are sitting at home right now and will be watching the SB on TV.

I'm not denying he's the best in the game NOW.  I think he is...much as I dislike him.  I can consider him outside of my dislike for him.  And, recently, he's just putting up numbers.  Been awhile since he's won one.  And I'm still a firm believer that at least the first 2 were as much because of the defense and his secondary offensive weapons (ESPECIALLY in 2001), as they were about Brady.  I watched those games (and those playoffs)....he was good, he wasn't the Brady we've seen since, say, 2004.

But when talking about him as the greatest ever....you have to view his numbers in that light.  That while he holds a number of records...he's compiled them in a league thats much more QB friendly. No, it's not his fault.  But it is what it is.

It's like comparing baseball stats between guys today and guys playing in the "dead ball" era (maybe not that drastic..but you get the idea).

Look, it's easy to find ways to discredit people you're not a fan of. No one is immune to it.

Montana is the best in my opinion, but Brady didn't have the luxury of playing with Jerry Rice, either.

I get it though. People tear down winners, and Brady leads the team with the highest winning percentage (or close to it) in popular sports since he came into the league.

I'm actually NOT discrediting him because I don't like him.  I'm pointing out that....his stats are somewhat bolstered by the fact he's in a league that protects him more than it has many "other" candidates for GOAT.
So when looking at guys like Montana (and he's widely considered the best), and making that comparison, you have to at least "what if" considering Montana playing in today's league.  Hell, if Montana was playing in today's league, he may NOT take that hit from Leonard Marshall...and so on, and so forth.

I agree with you. Montana is the best ever.  Brady will have to put up numbers that CRUSH Montana's for me to consider him better....because in today's league, it's easier to put up big numbers.  So far, he's not there yet.

It cuts both ways, too.  It's not Brady's fault he plays in the league that, today, is much more QB friendly.  It's also not Montana's fault he played in a league that was LESS QB friendly.  Neither guy should be penalized in the discussion simply because of the era they played in.

[LongGoneDay]

True, but he's putting up the numbers, and winning championships. What else would you have him do? He doesn't make the rules.
Eli, Brees, Rodgers, Ben are playing in the same era, but they have not enjoyed the same success.
QBs with better supporting casts than Brady are sitting at home right now and will be watching the SB on TV.

I agree with you. Montana is the best ever.  Brady will have to put up numbers that CRUSH Montana's for me to consider him better....because in today's league, it's easier to put up big numbers.  So far, he's not there yet.

One thing Montana has that Brady won't ever be able to say is that he was undefeated in the big game.
There are countless reasons why I don't think Kobe belongs on the same internet as MJ, but that was always a big one for me.
6 Finals, 6 rings, 6 MVPs. That's the end of the Kobe/MJ debate as far as I'm concerned, and it may end up being the same deal with Brady/ Montana.

[pilferk]

One thing Montana has that Brady won't ever be able to say is that he was undefeated in the big game.
There are countless reasons why I don't think Kobe belongs on the same internet as MJ, but that was always a big one for me.
6 Finals, 6 rings, 6 MVPs. That's the end of the Kobe/MJ debate as far as I'm concerned, and it may end up being the same deal with Brady/ Montana.

With you.

MJ is the best ever.

I saw MJ play, live, a bunch of times (against the Celts and a couple times against the Knicks).  In the regular season, he was amazing.  In the playoffs, he was a GOD.  I've never, ever, ever seen ANYONE play the game the way he did.  Not even now.

Nothing against Kobe.  He's probably the greatest player of HIS generation.  He deserves his place amongst the pantheon of the leagues greats....but he's no MJ. MJ= Zeus.