NFL 2011 Season

[pilferk]

I'm not buying Eli being tougher. Not sure where that comes from.
Brady has been an elite QB in this league for a while now, and durable throughout his career, save for the '08-'09 season, but no QB in the league is playing through that injury.

Takes a lickin and keeps on tickin?
And doesn't whine when he gets hit?

I don't know.  He asked.  That's what all the conversations have been in the media, when people say they'd rather have Eli.

Eli has played big in some big spots, but not more so than Brady.
Pats have one of the highest winning percentages in any sport since 2001, and he's been one of the only constants.
That's not a coincidence. He's won in different ways. He was not asked to do as much early on, just be efficient, and not screw it up. That's essentially what Eli did in his lone SB appearance. The second half of the Carolina SB was a shootout, and Brady won.
Not many QB's can beat him in a shootout.

Keep in mind, these guys are talking about THIS SB, not past years.

Again, this is the exact reason I said "I don't necessarily agree with them".  I think both QB's are clutch, in different ways.

Early Pats teams were certainly more well rounded, but wouldn't call them stacked. They had a bunch of high character guys who stepped up and made clutch plays when needed, but make no mistake, they weren't exactly feared, or viewed as a powerhouse from the get go. The media would have had you believe they didn't belong on the same filed as the Rams.

How they were viewed, at the time, and how they statistically/historically stack up are very different.

Pats were the laughing stock of the NFL for a longtime before this kid showed up.
Since, they have become the most dominant team in all of sports.

Ah...no.

Maybe quite awhile before. But from '94 to '00....Pats were in the playoffs 4 times.  By the time Brady arrived, they were 5 or 6 years past their cellar dwellar days.

Credit where it's due, Eli is a nice player, but he has a long way to go before he deserves the comparison to Brady.
Beating him twice in the big game would certainly help. He has the better supporting cast in my opinion this time around.
The Pats D showed me something last week for the first time in years. Hoping it continues, because Brady has been asked to do a lot more than most upper echelon QBs have this season.

Agree, 100%

[pilferk]

Eli is tougher, why? because he takes sacks and still wins? Brady does that. Ohh i get it brady complains about penalties. Nah hes not being a pussy hes trying to get a flag and i dont blame him.

You'd have to ask them, because the media pundits who picked Eli said it...but, at least partially, I'd say the two above are pretty accurate.

Brady whines when he's legally hit.  A LOT.

I've never seen Eli shrink from a hit, and I've never seen him whining to anyone who would listen (including the refs) about it.

Eli will sacrifice his body, waiting that split second, knowing he's going to get slammed, to get off the pass.

I'm not sure Brady is quite as brave/stupid/willing.

Eli tends to play big in big spots? Brady has never done that?

Sure he has.  But THIS YEAR, Eli's been bigger.  I assume that's what they meant.

http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/leaders.asp?type=Passing&range=NFL&rank=110

http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/leaders.asp?year=&type=Passing&range=NFL&rank=091

And you can certainly make the counter point that, the reason Brady hasn't done it this year is because he hasn't HAD to.  His team hasn't put him in that position.

I understand the personal thing. My brother-in-law is from indy and hates eli with a passion. Always has since college, thinks he sucks and gets away with too many bad throws.

I can't see with all of brady has done that Eli is in that class yet. When I think of the elite qbs in the leauge in no paticular order i think of Peyton, Brady, Brees, Rothlisberger, Rodgers and than thinking of the next teir where Eli is. He's played good in spots but I still think I would take Rivers over him with the same supporting cast Eli has.

I agree.   Eli's not in the same breath as Brady.

Eli has been the 4th or 5th best in the league, THIS year.  Career-wise?  Not yet.

But I"m not the one who said he'd pick Eli over Brady to win a game.  I would..but for entirely personal reasons.

[pilferk]

OK, all...it's been a fun discussion...but I'm heading to the airport and will be gone til next Monday.

Have fun with the "preSB" festivities....   

[Sober_times]

Eli is tougher, why? because he takes sacks and still wins? Brady does that. Ohh i get it brady complains about penalties. Nah hes not being a pussy hes trying to get a flag and i dont blame him.

You'd have to ask them, because the media pundits who picked Eli said it...but, at least partially, I'd say the two above are pretty accurate.

Brady whines when he's legally hit.  A LOT.

I've never seen Eli shrink from a hit, and I've never seen him whining to anyone who would listen (including the refs) about it.

Eli will sacrifice his body, waiting that split second, knowing he's going to get slammed, to get off the pass.

I'm not sure Brady is quite as brave/stupid/willing.

Eli tends to play big in big spots? Brady has never done that?

Sure he has.  But THIS YEAR, Eli's been bigger.  I assume that's what they meant.

http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/leaders.asp?type=Passing&range=NFL&rank=110

http://scores.nbcsports.msnbc.com/fb/leaders.asp?year=&type=Passing&range=NFL&rank=091

And you can certainly make the counter point that, the reason Brady hasn't done it this year is because he hasn't HAD to.  His team hasn't put him in that position.

I understand the personal thing. My brother-in-law is from indy and hates eli with a passion. Always has since college, thinks he sucks and gets away with too many bad throws.

I can't see with all of brady has done that Eli is in that class yet. When I think of the elite qbs in the leauge in no paticular order i think of Peyton, Brady, Brees, Rothlisberger, Rodgers and than thinking of the next teir where Eli is. He's played good in spots but I still think I would take Rivers over him with the same supporting cast Eli has.

I agree.   Eli's not in the same breath as Brady.

Eli has been the 4th or 5th best in the league, THIS year.  Career-wise?  Not yet.

But I"m not the one who said he'd pick Eli over Brady to win a game.  I would..but for entirely personal reasons.

First of all Eli never complains? He never sticks his hands in the air and looks at the officials like what the hell was that? Yeah ok...

Brady complains when he gets hit to get a flag. So what. Doesn't mean he isn't tough or that he is a whiner. He wants the flag whether its deserved or not. I dont see anything wrong with that and neither should anyone else. Contrary to what you say Eli Manning has asked for flags when their not given.(see above comment about hands in air). He has also been vocal, i will say he doesn't do it often but really Brady doesn't either. It just gets maginified every time he does because of the media driven name, "Tom Brady Rule," for lunging at qbs knees. And the physical opponents the patriots play(ravens and jets) tend to complain vocally to media after a game(they mostly lose) anytime a call goes against them or they don't get one(with this last game being an exception to this) where as brady rarely complains post game and readily admits in post game when he gets a bad call.

Brady jumped up after getting slammed in the back by ray lewis after the touchdown dive, spiked the ball and celebrated quite emphaticly. He has been wacked several times on that last second in his career and completed the passes and has been just drilled and not got up complaining. There are a few famous hits on you tube where he just pops right back up. It happens. Just because he doesn't have the mobility of Eli doesn't mean he doesn't take good hits and pop right back up or hold on to the ball till the last second. Brady doesn't have the mobility of eli but makes up for it by being better than him with every other aspect of his game.


Your right Brady's team hasn't been in that position of 4th quarter comebacks very often this season and thats mainly because of how good Tom Brady is and how well he plays. I still contend that those analysts who are saying Eli is anywhere near Brady at this point of his career are dead wrong. They say this season because numbers never lie and over the course of a career Tom Brady is simply better. This season they are 2 and 3 in 4th quarter passing rating and 1 and 2 in 4th quater tds and Tom Brady has less need to be great in the fourth quater because he's great throughout most games yet he still was. Eli threw a couple more 4th quarter picks btw.


Based on the stats you used in qb rating and tds to determine eli mannings performance in 4th quarter he is not in the top 4 or 5 of qbs this past season in tds or qb rating. But neither are some of the ones i mentioned.

Tds he was 6th:

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_TOUCHDOWNS&tabSeq=0&season=2011&experience=null&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&qualified=true

QB rating he was 7th but ill give him 6th and not count Matt Schaub.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?seasonType=REG&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_TOUCHDOWNS&tabSeq=0&season=2011&experience=null&Submit=Go&archive=false&conference=null&statisticCategory=PASSING&qualified=true


Lastly I'll end my side of the discussion of the incomplete pass by bringing a little bit of rules into it.  Item 3: End Zone Catches. If a player controls the ball while in the end zone, both feet, or any part of his body other than his hands, must be completely on the ground before losing control, or the pass is incomplete.

And that of Former Vice President of Officiating in the National Football League Mike Pereria's text message to pro football weekly: Clearly not a catch. Ball coming out before second foot clearly down. . . .  No need to review it because it was clearly incomplete.

[sandman]

eli is not in Tom Brady's universe.

Brady is arguably the greatest QB of all-time. if he wins next week it's neck and neck between him and Montana. same number of SB wins, but brady did lose one (albeit on a miracle helmet catch).

also, i always respected Montana and there's no denying his greatness. watching him was something special in the 80's. HOWEVER, he played on some teams that felt like all-star teams. he had the greatest WR of all-time, and his #2 WR for a number of years (Taylor) would have been #1 on almost every other team in the NFL. he also had a pro-bowl RB (craig) and their defense was stacked every year.

Brady led a patriots team over the rams when they were double digit underdogs vs the Rams. i can barely remember who Brady's WRs and RBs were during their 3 SB wins. was branch his best WR? he also had brown and i can't even remember who else. best RB...dillon? smith? faulk? he did alot with an average cast of players at the skill positions.   

[Bodhi]

eli is not in Tom Brady's universe.

Brady is arguably the greatest QB of all-time. if he wins next week it's neck and neck between him and Montana. same number of SB wins, but brady did lose one (albeit on a miracle helmet catch).

also, i always respected Montana and there's no denying his greatness. watching him was something special in the 80's. HOWEVER, he played on some teams that felt like all-star teams. he had the greatest WR of all-time, and his #2 WR for a number of years (Taylor) would have been #1 on almost every other team in the NFL. he also had a pro-bowl RB (craig) and their defense was stacked every year.

Brady led a patriots team over the rams when they were double digit underdogs vs the Rams. i can barely remember who Brady's WRs and RBs were during their 3 SB wins. was branch his best WR? he also had brown and i can't even remember who else. best RB...dillon? smith? faulk? he did alot with an average cast of players at the skill positions.   

Eli is not on Tom Brady's level, but I wouldn't say his isn't in his universe.  Mark Sanchez is a guy who is not in Tom Brady's universe. 

You are right, Tom Brady is neck and neck with Montana, and Brady did it with A LOT less than Montana did.  Look up the roster from that 2001 Championship team.

[SpecialAgentCooper]

Eli may not bitch as much, but Brady wins Superbowls. I would take Brady over Eli any day of the week. And I really cant see Tom Brady losing in the big game again. I mean Atlanta and Green Bay are both soft teams and SF shot themselves in the foot..not trying to take anything away from the Giants, but I dont think they are a team of destiny as they have proclaimed.


Coop

[faldor]

Eli may not bitch as much, but Brady wins Superbowls. I would take Brady over Eli any day of the week. And I really cant see Tom Brady losing in the big game again. I mean Atlanta and Green Bay are both soft teams and SF shot themselves in the foot..not trying to take anything away from the Giants, but I dont think they are a team of destiny as they have proclaimed.


Coop

I agree with you to a point.  Everyone and their sister seems to want to discount the Patriots win over the Ravens because of the missed FG or the TD that wasn't by Lee Evans, yet nobody (or at least a lot less) are talking about how the Giants were pretty much handed a victory on a silver platter.  Taking nothing away from them, a win is a win, no matter how it happens, it all counts the same.  That just shows you how evenly the final 4 teams are. 

I have to say though, I've tried to discount the Giants ever since they started their run and they just continue to win.  So there's a point where you have to admit they're a really good team.  I think you have the two teams that are playing the best right now.  Who knows what would've happened if New Orleans didn't have to play outside, but they did and they lost. 

I expect a very close game.  I'd be surprised if it was a blowout on either side.  It should be similar to their meeting earlier this season in Foxboro.  I know most people are expecting a lot of points, but I think this game should be in the 20's.  I'm just hoping Gronkowski is able to play effectively.  I think he'll suit up for sure, but he may not be close to 100%.  I think he's the biggest mismatch either team has, so if he's not as effective that's a big blow to the Pats. 

[SpecialAgentCooper]

Gronk has a high ankle sprain...isn't gonna be able to do much I would think. Lets hope Brady has a magic night


Coop

[Axl4Prez2004]

Due to my horrendous history picking games...I am now going to go with the OPPOSITE of the team I expect to win.
I look at both teams' offenses and I see quality.  Slight edge to the Pats, even with Gronk hurt.  That said, nobody's been able to stop Cruz lately.
Defensively, I clearly like the G-Men.
For me, on paper, overall I see a slight advantage for the Giants.
Sooooo.....

It's official!

Axl4Prez is rollin' with the Pats -2 1/2!!!!
I'm not betting...I just want to see a great game.  I don't wanna see a goat, I want to see some heroics.
I don't want Cundiffs, Lee Evans, or Kyle Williams bullshit.
I wanna have some good food, good drinks, and a great game!!!   

[SpecialAgentCooper]

Poor Kyle Williams


Coop

[SpecialAgentCooper]

Anybody watching the 49ers vs the AFC today?


Coop

[pilferk]

I really want to pick the Giants by 3.  I think their pass rush can put Brady on his heels (which is when, historically, he's not been as "Brady-like".  I think Eli can handle the Pats defense (because, like to admit it or not, neither the Broncos nor the Ravens had GREAT offenses).  I think the Giants receivers can handle the Pats secondary.  I think the injury to Gronk, assuming he's as limited as everyone thinks he's going to be, will hurt the Pats A LOT.  I think match ups, largely, favor the Giants.

I really want to pick the Giants.

But I'm not going to.

Pats by 3.

Because the Giants won the regular season game, because this Giants team has been inconsistent (and yes, health was a factor) all season long, and because I just can't bring myself to believe that THIS team...a team I cheer for every week...can put together another near perfect game.  And because the Pats have Tom Brady who, after last week, is ticked off and has something to prove.  I don't think he's got Eli's grit....and I still can't stand the guy...but I think he's the best player in the game on Sunday and all his O-line has to do is keep him upright.

I pray I'm wrong.  I'll be screaming my lungs out for the G-men.  NOBODY on this board will be happier than me if I am wrong.  But there you go.

[pilferk]

eli is not in Tom Brady's universe.

Brady is arguably the greatest QB of all-time. if he wins next week it's neck and neck between him and Montana. same number of SB wins, but brady did lose one (albeit on a miracle helmet catch).

also, i always respected Montana and there's no denying his greatness. watching him was something special in the 80's. HOWEVER, he played on some teams that felt like all-star teams. he had the greatest WR of all-time, and his #2 WR for a number of years (Taylor) would have been #1 on almost every other team in the NFL. he also had a pro-bowl RB (craig) and their defense was stacked every year.

Brady led a patriots team over the rams when they were double digit underdogs vs the Rams. i can barely remember who Brady's WRs and RBs were during their 3 SB wins. was branch his best WR? he also had brown and i can't even remember who else. best RB...dillon? smith? faulk? he did alot with an average cast of players at the skill positions.   

Career?  Agree 100%....though Eli might be entering the outer edges.

This year?  Same universe, neighboring planets.

Brady HAS been better this year, overall, too.  Eli has been better when it counts (4Q, for example).  IMHO, Eli has some intangibles I value, personally, over Brady...but Brady is definitely the more skilled player.  But THIS year, it's a lot closer than it has been in previous years. 

Lupica wrote an article on why he'd take Eli over Brady.  I don't agree with everything he wrote in it, but it gives you an idea of WHY some people would take him over Brady, TODAY (or, rather, this coming Sunday).  It was up on the NY daily news web site...but I think they took the full text down.

[gilee7]

Not only do I think the Giants are going to win Sunday, but I think they're going to win by 10+ points.

Gronkowski is supposedly going to need surgery after the Superbowl, so that implies that his injury is fairly serious. Even if he somehow plays, it's hard to imagine him being effective, so there goes Brady's' best weapon. I know the Pats' defense has played better in the playoffs, but that was against Tebow and Flacco (who actually had a very good game). I can't see them stopping Eli, who is playing just as well, if not better, than Brady right now. I think the Giants match up very well against the Pats. I'd give them the edge over the Pats in nearly every category.

[LongGoneDay]

I think it's gonna be another stressful game to watch.
I'm actually surprised the Pats are favored. I think the Giants have the better overall team.
Pats D opened some eyes last week, but they still scare the shit out of me. Really hoping Gronkoski can be effective. That's a lot of weight for a bum ankle.

The only things I see in the Patriots favor is Belichik, and that Brady is due for a big playoff game. Hopefully the O line can give him a chance this time around.
Won't be easy though.

[pilferk]

I'm gonna get CREAMED for this, but...as a Giants fan (and for no other reason than the "burn" points)...I gotta say 2 things:

Pats have beat ONE team, this year, who finished the season with a winning record (the Ravens).

Brady+Spygate=3
Brady-Spygate (so far)=0.

[LongGoneDay]

I'm gonna get CREAMED for this, but...as a Giants fan (and for no other reason than the "burn" points)...I gotta say 2 things:

Pats have beat ONE team, this year, who finished the season with a winning record (the Ravens).

Brady+Spygate=3
Brady-Spygate (so far)=0.

The competition turned out to be soft, but the Patriots don't make the schedule.
Spygate is beyond tired.

When the entire world was watching, the Patriots were really under the microscope, they went out and manhandled the entire league, rattling off 18 wins in a row. Sure, they lost the game that meant the most, which what would have been the exclamation point on the big fuck you, but it nonetheless should have put to rest any naive notion that the Pats had built a dynasty with a video camera. If it didn't, the fact that other teams admitted to using the same practice should have helped.

I think you know better, Pilferk, but touche. You have officially stirred the pot.
The gloves are off! haha

[faldor]

I'm gonna get CREAMED for this, but...as a Giants fan (and for no other reason than the "burn" points)...I gotta say 2 things:

Pats have beat ONE team, this year, who finished the season with a winning record (the Ravens).

Brady+Spygate=3
Brady-Spygate (so far)=0.

The competition turned out to be soft, but the Patriots don't make the schedule.
Spygate is beyond tired.

When the entire world was watching, the Patriots were really under the microscope, they went out and manhandled the entire league, rattling off 18 wins in a row. Sure, they lost the game that meant the most, which what would have been the exclamation point on the big fuck you, but it nonetheless should have put to rest any naive notion that the Pats had built a dynasty with a video camera. If it didn't, the fact that other teams admitted to using the same practice should have helped.

I think you know better, Pilferk, but touche. You have officially stirred the pot.
The gloves are off! haha

Spygate is what it is, and it's there for the haters to bring up whenever they want.  There's not much we, as Patriot fans, can say to defend it.  It's a fact, they haven't won a Super Bowl since Spygate.  I was reminded of this quite vividly upon entering Gillette Stadium for last weeks AFC Championship game.  A group of Ravens fans were walking through the concourse behind me chanting "Spygate".  I promptly flicked them off, and one of the female fans told me to stick it up her ass.  It was a classy exchange.  Fact is, it's there, and there's nothing that can be done to take it away.  Winning on Sunday would certainly help.  Then people couldn't bring up the fact that they haven't won post Spygate.  But as we've seen, people will find other things to complain about.  Whether it be, missed FG's, botched TD calls, hometown scoreboard malfunctions.  People hate a winner, and they'll do anything they can to discount the good things they do.

And the schedule thing means absolutely nothing, as does the fact that the Pats went 13-3 this year and the Giants went 9-7.  The Patriots were 14-2 last year and had one of the toughest schedules in the league and beat EVERY good team they played.  What good did that do them?  They lost in the first round of the playoffs.  So while it may be true that they've only beaten ONE team with a winning record this year, it doesn't really matter.  But if you want to hang your hat on that, then be my guest.  I could bring up the Giants losing to Seattle or getting swept by Washington this season, but those games don't mean a thing in grand scheme of things either.

[faldor]

I really want to pick the Giants by 3.  I think their pass rush can put Brady on his heels (which is when, historically, he's not been as "Brady-like".  I think Eli can handle the Pats defense (because, like to admit it or not, neither the Broncos nor the Ravens had GREAT offenses).  I think the Giants receivers can handle the Pats secondary.  I think the injury to Gronk, assuming he's as limited as everyone thinks he's going to be, will hurt the Pats A LOT.  I think match ups, largely, favor the Giants.

I really want to pick the Giants.

But I'm not going to.

Pats by 3.

Because the Giants won the regular season game, because this Giants team has been inconsistent (and yes, health was a factor) all season long, and because I just can't bring myself to believe that THIS team...a team I cheer for every week...can put together another near perfect game.  And because the Pats have Tom Brady who, after last week, is ticked off and has something to prove.  I don't think he's got Eli's grit....and I still can't stand the guy...but I think he's the best player in the game on Sunday and all his O-line has to do is keep him upright.

I pray I'm wrong.  I'll be screaming my lungs out for the G-men.  NOBODY on this board will be happier than me if I am wrong.  But there you go.

Sticking with picking against your team since it's worked to this point, eh? 

I'd be surprised if the game was decided by more than a touchdown.  I guess if there was a blowout, I'd have to think the Giants would come out on top, but I just don't see that happening.  I think it's going to be a back and forth game, just like their earlier meeting this season.  I keep going back and forth myself.  I wasn't all that confident when the matchup first came to fruition, but gained confidence throughout last week.  Now tonight I've regressed a bit.  The Gronkowski injury scares me, and puzzles me at the same time.  I watched Sound FX from last weeks game and Gronk looked and sounded fine post injury, but that could just be the initial adrenaline keeping him going.  It's obvious the guy is hurt and I'd be surprised if he was close to 100%.  Hopefully they get the good medicine and shoot him up nice before kickoff and it's enough to last 4 hours or so.

My initial pick was Pats 27-24, so I'll stick with that, but I agree that the Giants are probably the better overall team.  They're certainly more balanced, obviously better on defense.  The Patriots normally have a huge advantage over teams in the QB/coach department, but that isn't the case here.  Eli has been as good, if not better than Brady of late, and Coughlin is a damn good coach.  I'll say one thing, I think both these teams have already exceeded their own expectations.  The Giants barely made the playoffs, and despite the Patriots lofty record not many people gave them a shot due to their historically bad defense.  Yet, here they are, ready to do battle to decide a champion.  It should be a good one.  I might end up getting blacked out drunk during the game.  The one question is, will it be a happy drunk, or a depressed one?  Something tells me, there will be many twists and turns.