Al-Qaeda leader Bin Laden 'dead'

[faldor]

I'm not saying US sucks, I don't hate America and as I said before I'm relieved that Bin laden can't hurt anyone anymore. I'm just saying that celebrating anyones death just seems wrong to me, that's all. It's like celebrating the excercise of violence rather than the end of it.

That's just my opinion, don't take it personally.

I get that argument, and I don't take it personally.  You've made some valid points in a rational manner, and I respect that.

The thing about the celebrating.  And I'm not sure how slanted peoples views on America are.  I HOPE you don't think that we all share the same thoughts and beliefs.  Because that's certainly not the case.  I can tell you that many Americans would agree with you, and others, that it's not right to celebrate ANY man's death.  There are many who would celebrate it till the cows come home.  MANY/most Americans disagree(d) with the war in Iraq.  Americans disagreed with the war in Vietnam, most want us to pull out of Afghanistan, especially now.  We're talking about a fraction of people here.  And this is true for all nations.  As Axl says, "Why let one bad apple spoil the whole damn bunch."

[faldor]

Can I just state my opinion? I don't mourn the death of Bin laden, in fact if anything I'm relieved that a dangerous mass murderer won't be able to plot any more attacks against innocent civilians. But at the same time, I really don't feel the need to go out and celebrate his death. I was shocked when I saw people in muslim countries celebrating the death of thousands of civilians after 9/11, but do we really have to lower ourselves to the same barbaric level? If I was an american, I would go to the cemetery and light candles for the civilian victims of 9/11 and the 10 years of war and madness that followed, rather than grab a case of beer in one hand and a flag in the other and go get wasted. That's my two cents. Hope you understand.

I've thought about that and I can see your point.  I too was aghast at the sites of people in Afghanistan celebrating the destruction of 9/11. 

HOWEVER, I think these two things are drastically different.  THEY were celebrating the fact that 1000's of people were killed in the most horrific act of terrorism (cowardice) in world history.  They were celebrating an entire country being weakened.  They were burning American flags, etc. 

Americans were celebrating the death of ONE man.  This was not about Afghanistan, Pakistan, the Middle East, Islam.  This was about killing ONE man who orchestrated 9/11 and many other atrocities all across the world over the past few decades.

Surely, you can see the difference.

Just read "cowardice" .

Boy! Burst into a house with the most amazing military equipment in the world, and kill an unarmed man (and yes, i know he was an awful person) is so fuckin' brave! My god! It's epic.


The best thing to do is capture Bin Laden and judge him. But no...the savior from the north of America preffered to kill him. That's not justice, that's revenge. That's not civilized, that's savagery.

Oh please, we landed in a fucking compound with helicopters.  They HAD to be prepared to protect themselves.  We went in and took out the main target.  We could've easily bombed the hell out of him from the air and taken the easy route. 

I love how you make it sound like it was such a simple task, what the Navy SEALS pulled off.

And capturing him and putting him on trial would've caused much more harm than good.  He's better off dead, they gave him a proper burial.  The world is a better place.

Ulises, come right out and say it.  I know you're dying to.  The US got what they deserved on 9/11.  That sure sounds like what you're getting at.  That's a slippery slope to climb my man.  All the hatred you have for America is very unbecoming.  I'm sure you're a good guy deep down, but you sure aren't showing it in this thread.  Keep blaming America for all your problems if it makes you feel better.

9/11  was a tragedy and I'll never wish pain to a country or a person or whatever (like YOU do). I don't think you "deserved" that, maybe is a "lesson" to a country who always thought they were the greatest and that they could do whatever they want with the whole fuckin' world (but to implay 9/11 made me happy is stupid). 9/11 was a tragedy. Period. A tragedy where the US was involved because Osama Bin Laden was built by U.S.A. . It was some kind of "backfire" effect.

Well I'm glad to hear that.  You just went up 1/2 a point in my book.

We're not all bad Ulises, in America.  I just wish you would let go of some of that anger you've got in you.  It's not healthy.  But whatever, to each his own.

[Ulises]

Can I just state my opinion? I don't mourn the death of Bin laden, in fact if anything I'm relieved that a dangerous mass murderer won't be able to plot any more attacks against innocent civilians. But at the same time, I really don't feel the need to go out and celebrate his death. I was shocked when I saw people in muslim countries celebrating the death of thousands of civilians after 9/11, but do we really have to lower ourselves to the same barbaric level? If I was an american, I would go to the cemetery and light candles for the civilian victims of 9/11 and the 10 years of war and madness that followed, rather than grab a case of beer in one hand and a flag in the other and go get wasted. That's my two cents. Hope you understand.

I've thought about that and I can see your point.  I too was aghast at the sites of people in Afghanistan celebrating the destruction of 9/11. 

HOWEVER, I think these two things are drastically different.  THEY were celebrating the fact that 1000's of people were killed in the most horrific act of terrorism (cowardice) in world history.  They were celebrating an entire country being weakened.  They were burning American flags, etc. 

Americans were celebrating the death of ONE man.  This was not about Afghanistan, Pakistan, the Middle East, Islam.  This was about killing ONE man who orchestrated 9/11 and many other atrocities all across the world over the past few decades.

Surely, you can see the difference.

Just read "cowardice" .

Boy! Burst into a house with the most amazing military equipment in the world, and kill an unarmed man (and yes, i know he was an awful person) is so fuckin' brave! My god! It's epic.


The best thing to do is capture Bin Laden and judge him. But no...the savior from the north of America preffered to kill him. That's not justice, that's revenge. That's not civilized, that's savagery.

Oh please, we landed in a fucking compound with helicopters.  They HAD to be prepared to protect themselves.  We went in and took out the main target.  We could've easily bombed the hell out of him from the air and taken the easy route. 

I love how you make it sound like it was such a simple task, what the Navy SEALS pulled off.

And capturing him and putting him on trial would've caused much more harm than good.  He's better off dead, they gave him a proper burial.  The world is a better place.

Ulises, come right out and say it.  I know you're dying to.  The US got what they deserved on 9/11.  That sure sounds like what you're getting at.  That's a slippery slope to climb my man.  All the hatred you have for America is very unbecoming.  I'm sure you're a good guy deep down, but you sure aren't showing it in this thread.  Keep blaming America for all your problems if it makes you feel better.

9/11  was a tragedy and I'll never wish pain to a country or a person or whatever (like YOU do). I don't think you "deserved" that, maybe is a "lesson" to a country who always thought they were the greatest and that they could do whatever they want with the whole fuckin' world (but to implay 9/11 made me happy is stupid). 9/11 was a tragedy. Period. A tragedy where the US was involved because Osama Bin Laden was built by U.S.A. . It was some kind of "backfire" effect.

Well I'm glad to hear that.  You just went up 1/2 a point in my book.

We're not all bad Ulises, in America.  I just wish you would let go of some of that anger you've got in you.  It's not healthy.  But whatever, to each his own.

Nobody said that. I'm just talking about USA in political terms. Not about american people and nothing like that...

[faldor]

Can I just state my opinion? I don't mourn the death of Bin laden, in fact if anything I'm relieved that a dangerous mass murderer won't be able to plot any more attacks against innocent civilians. But at the same time, I really don't feel the need to go out and celebrate his death. I was shocked when I saw people in muslim countries celebrating the death of thousands of civilians after 9/11, but do we really have to lower ourselves to the same barbaric level? If I was an american, I would go to the cemetery and light candles for the civilian victims of 9/11 and the 10 years of war and madness that followed, rather than grab a case of beer in one hand and a flag in the other and go get wasted. That's my two cents. Hope you understand.

I've thought about that and I can see your point.  I too was aghast at the sites of people in Afghanistan celebrating the destruction of 9/11. 

HOWEVER, I think these two things are drastically different.  THEY were celebrating the fact that 1000's of people were killed in the most horrific act of terrorism (cowardice) in world history.  They were celebrating an entire country being weakened.  They were burning American flags, etc. 

Americans were celebrating the death of ONE man.  This was not about Afghanistan, Pakistan, the Middle East, Islam.  This was about killing ONE man who orchestrated 9/11 and many other atrocities all across the world over the past few decades.

Surely, you can see the difference.

Just read "cowardice" .

Boy! Burst into a house with the most amazing military equipment in the world, and kill an unarmed man (and yes, i know he was an awful person) is so fuckin' brave! My god! It's epic.


The best thing to do is capture Bin Laden and judge him. But no...the savior from the north of America preffered to kill him. That's not justice, that's revenge. That's not civilized, that's savagery.

Oh please, we landed in a fucking compound with helicopters.  They HAD to be prepared to protect themselves.  We went in and took out the main target.  We could've easily bombed the hell out of him from the air and taken the easy route. 

I love how you make it sound like it was such a simple task, what the Navy SEALS pulled off.

And capturing him and putting him on trial would've caused much more harm than good.  He's better off dead, they gave him a proper burial.  The world is a better place.

Ulises, come right out and say it.  I know you're dying to.  The US got what they deserved on 9/11.  That sure sounds like what you're getting at.  That's a slippery slope to climb my man.  All the hatred you have for America is very unbecoming.  I'm sure you're a good guy deep down, but you sure aren't showing it in this thread.  Keep blaming America for all your problems if it makes you feel better.

9/11  was a tragedy and I'll never wish pain to a country or a person or whatever (like YOU do). I don't think you "deserved" that, maybe is a "lesson" to a country who always thought they were the greatest and that they could do whatever they want with the whole fuckin' world (but to implay 9/11 made me happy is stupid). 9/11 was a tragedy. Period. A tragedy where the US was involved because Osama Bin Laden was built by U.S.A. . It was some kind of "backfire" effect.

Well I'm glad to hear that.  You just went up 1/2 a point in my book.

We're not all bad Ulises, in America.  I just wish you would let go of some of that anger you've got in you.  It's not healthy.  But whatever, to each his own.

Nobody said that. I'm just only talking about USA in political terms. Not about american people and nothing like that...

I get it.  We are hated in the world.  I'm learning that more and more every day.  I don't get it, and I don't like it, but obviously I'm biased.  You're obviously not alone in hating the US government.  There's not much I can do about that.  I'll try to not take any of your comments too personally, as I hope you do the same.

[tim_m]

US isn't perfect, sure we've had our black eyes like a lot of other countries, slavery being number 1 the Native Americans number 2, but I don't think the US have ever intentionally murdered innocent people. has it happened? unfortunately yes but I think those that say the US should mind their own business need to remember what happened back in the 1930's when we minded our own business and a certain evil bastard named Hitler almost ruled the entire eastern world.

Well i hate to burst your bubble here but we have intentionally killed innocent people. I know this because a friend who is a former marine was a laser guide for missles during missons in Kosovo in the 90s. One of the missions he had to do was missle guiding for an orphange because Milosivich had installed a weapon system on the roof.

What kind of scumbag wold put a weapon system on the roof? Again the price of war

The guy what commiting genocide and ethnic cleansing. So its not that surprising he did something so shitty.

[Koskenkorvasieni]

I'm not saying US sucks, I don't hate America and as I said before I'm relieved that Bin laden can't hurt anyone anymore. I'm just saying that celebrating anyones death just seems wrong to me, that's all. It's like celebrating the excercise of violence rather than the end of it.

That's just my opinion, don't take it personally.

I get that argument, and I don't take it personally.  You've made some valid points in a rational manner, and I respect that.

The thing about the celebrating.  And I'm not sure how slanted peoples views on America are.  I HOPE you don't think that we all share the same thoughts and beliefs.  Because that's certainly not the case.  I can tell you that many Americans would agree with you, and others, that it's not right to celebrate ANY man's death.  There are many who would celebrate it till the cows come home.  MANY/most Americans disagree(d) with the war in Iraq.  Americans disagreed with the war in Vietnam, most want us to pull out of Afghanistan, especially now.  We're talking about a fraction of people here.  And this is true for all nations.  As Axl says, "Why let one bad apple spoil the whole damn bunch."

Of course I don't think all americans share the same beliefs. I'm pretty sure that not all muslims are terrorists either.

I hope mankind learns to live together in peace someday. Maybe I'm a bit naive, but it's a nice thought, isn't it? Because if we keep going on the course we are on at the moment, we'll kill each other before we destroy the planet. 

[sandman]

as the leader of the free world, the US has to interact with the scum of the earth. i'm not going to defend all of our government's actions cause i know we have done some shady stuff. but i also don't know everything that went into some of those decisions. and i don't know the men that made those decisions.

I trust Obama. i don't think he is evil or has any evil intentions. and i THOUGHT the rest of the world generally agreed with that. (i guess that didn't last too long.  )

well Obama deals with and even protects evil dictators. and 20 years from now, some miserable people sitting in some shitty third world countries will be blaming obama for innocent civilians dying in a war and for helping dictators stay in power.

you people hating on the U.S. are coming off as just that....haters. you use Bush or our history or our politics to justify your deep-seeded hatred of our country.

[Genesis]

Finally, never thought he would be found or would die a natural death before that ...  Take that fucker! Rot in hell.

Rant over, I too don't agree celebrating violence and glorifying someone's death, but if there ever was an exception, this would be it.

It is also a massive symbolic blow to these crazy radicals, removing their top man, even though everyone knows that for them it will be business as usual in a while.

Pity that Pakistan has turned out the be the last refuge for all these crazy psychos. Well now at least everyone knows where to look.

[jarmo]

as the leader of the free world, the US has to interact with the scum of the earth. i'm not going to defend all of our government's actions cause i know we have done some shady stuff. but i also don't know everything that went into some of those decisions. and i don't know the men that made those decisions.

Exactly.

But, as usual, it's always somebody else's fault.

It's easy to blame the USA for everything bad. But then you're not looking at the whole picture. If the USA planted a dictator in a country, why did it get to that point? Maybe things had been fucked up for so long that it was easy for them to do it? They saw an opportunity, took it and unfortunately it created all kinds of tragic problems.


A lot of it had to do with what was going on at the time. It was the time of the Cold War.

Do you let the Soviets plant a communist there or do you do something yourself? It was a race... Unfortunately.

I trust Obama. i don't think he is evil or has any evil intentions. and i THOUGHT the rest of the world generally agreed with that. (i guess that didn't last too long.  )

To me it looks more like the US turned their backs on him....




The whole celebrating death.

Sure, some are celebrating his death I'm sure.

But I think some people are celebrating a kind of a victory. They would've been celebrating if he had been captured too I'm sure.

Some people celebrate when a criminal is sentenced to jail because it brings them closure. I'm guessing this could be similar...





/jarmo

[faldor]

I think the US HAD turned on Obama, up until a few days ago.  Now, we're seeing that "Change" he was talking about.  Obviously he's still got a ways to go, but he handled the whole situation with class and was able to do what the previous 2 administrations couldn't do in taking down Bin Laden.  That was a huge operation to plan, keep secret, and carry out.  Seems impossible, but they pulled it off.  It proves to me that there's a lot going on behind closed doors that we know nothing about, and I now trust that Obama will do the right thing.

[estebanf]

If the USA planted a dictator in a country

The USA has absolutely no rights to do that. Never had them, never will.

That's one of the few things USA must learn. They think we need them. But we dont. How things are ruled in other countries is their business, not USA's.

as the leader of the free world, the US

 

[jarmo]

I get that they have no rights. I don't think anybody here would dispute that.

You don't seem to realize that the world was a bit different back then. Two super powers were fighting each other in all kinds of ways. Not just in ice hockey.


It's easy to just point fingers when you don't need to acknowledge anything.





/jarmo

[chineseblues]

The way I see it is that pretty much all governments do evil or bad things at some point, it's not just one country or one region of the world. No one is perfect and there is no good vs evil.

[Jim]

It's easy to blame [...] for everything bad. But then you're not looking at the whole picture. If [...], why did it get to that point? Maybe things had been fucked up for so long that it was easy for them to do it? They saw an opportunity, took it and unfortunately it created all kinds of tragic problems.

I would be careful with that kind of logic. A couple of like for like changes and you could just as easily be talking about al-Qaeda and 11/9.

[jarmo]

Are you saying the Cold War is no reason for the fact that the USA and Soviet Union interfered with other countries' internal businesses?

That's was the point.



Yes, even extreme terrorists have a reason for doing what they do, doesn't make it right.





/jarmo

[One.In.A.Million]

So we are not going to get a photo, in my view that sucks as people are always going to claim that it never happened/ or that the US are hiding something from us. I know that the image was gory, but it won't have been shown on the news where children could see it openly, maybe Al Jazeera but that's it. It would have been handled in a way that we have come to expect, and I don't think it would have been the worse thing we have seen. I think releasing a picture, so people could look it up on the internet would have been a much better solution, rather than not giving people a choice at all. 

I really feel that somethings not right about all of this. 

[Genesis]

Probably the right decision. Even if they release them, there will be people saying it's photoshopped (already a few on the net), so that's not important. What's important is that genuine pictures don't become the next recruiting tools for al-qaeda and their elk.

[Axl4Prez2004]

Probably the right decision. Even if they release them, there will be people saying it's photoshopped (already a few on the net), so that's not important. What's important is that genuine pictures don't become the next recruiting tools for al-qaeda and their elk.

Oh great!  Now our 4-legged, antlered friends are getting radicalized???   

Seriously, good arguments can be made on both sides of the "release photos/don't release photos" argument.  I lean towards the "don't release" because I think the negatives outweigh the positives.
Perhaps the top secret information could be shown to selected world leaders who could subsequently report their findings to their constituents?
Would satisfying morbid curiosity really be worth supplying a potentially invaluable recruiting tool for Al Qaeda?  I don't think so.
In my opinion, President Obama has handled this very well. 
There is no need to gloat, and he hasn't.
There is no "mission accomplished" banner.  (in a war against terror, there is no end unfortunately)
Reinforcing the message to the Muslim world that the U.S. is not at war with Islam is sooo very important.  Many of my ra-ra jingoistic fellow Americans just don't seem to understand there is nothing to be gained in antagonizing the Muslim world.  Can we convince every Muslim this is the case?  Hell no.  Can we increase the % that trust us?  Hell yeah.
We need support from the Muslim world to help fight terrorism.  There's no arguing that fact.

btw, what a gutsy move.  This operation could have ended much differently, and had it ended differently...well...just look at what happened to Jimmy Carter after his botched attempt to free the hostages in Iran back in the day. 

one more thing...if any of you missed out on this, I'm sorry.  The Annual Correspondents Dinner just the night before the execution of the Bin Laden operation...talk about a poker face!  This had some great laughs...especially the intro. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9mzJhvC-8E&feature=feedlik
Seth Myers from SNL had some good ones too...available on google and youtube as well.  enjoy.
 

[One.In.A.Million]

Probably the right decision. Even if they release them, there will be people saying it's photoshopped (already a few on the net), so that's not important. What's important is that genuine pictures don't become the next recruiting tools for al-qaeda and their elk.

That's true, but some people just won't believe something until they've seen it. 

You've got people who think that Bin Laden's been dead for 9 years. And then you've got people thinking that he's some how "working" with the US govenment, and he's being kept safe, and this is just a spoof to fool the world into forgeting about him...  

So after all of that, why not just release the damn picture online, and anyone who wishes to see it, can. It doesn't need to be splashed all over the tv, or even newspapers. And that won't happen anyway, because of the taste issue, but I don't see any harm in letting individuals see it who really want to, online. 

[Axl4Prez2004]

Probably the right decision. Even if they release them, there will be people saying it's photoshopped (already a few on the net), so that's not important. What's important is that genuine pictures don't become the next recruiting tools for al-qaeda and their elk.

That's true, but some people just won't believe something until they've seen it. 

You've got people who think that Bin Laden's been dead for 9 years. And then you've got people thinking that he's some how "working" with the US govenment, and he's being kept safe, and this is just a spoof to fool the world into forgeting about him...  

So after all of that, why not just release the damn picture online, and anyone who wishes to see it, can. It doesn't need to be splashed all over the tv, or even newspapers. And that won't happen anyway, because of the taste issue, but I don't see any harm in letting individuals see it who really want to, online. 

You're serious?  The split-second it's released "on-line," it will be EVERYWHERE.  Most notably being used as a recruiting tool for the next fuck-tard that wants fame and notoriety even if it comes posthumously as a "martyr."
Your 1st paragraph summed up the argument for not releasing the evidence.  People will believe what they want to believe.  If foreign leaders want proof, I'm cool with them going into a sealed room...no recording devices, and seeing the evidence that doesn't compromise our covert techniques.  Released to the public?  That doesn't do a damn lick of good in my eyes, other than satisfy morbid curiosity...which is not a good reason for anything in life in my opinion.