The 2010/2011 NBA Season Thread

[pilferk]

I would take Wade over Kobe in a heartbeat today. I think Wade has always been underrated, and maybe now more than ever. If the Heat win the title this year, Wade will be Finals MVP, not Lebron. Lebron is a freak of a player, but Wade doesn't disappear in big games. He has already won a ring with a much less talented Heat roster.

MUCH less talented Heat team?  I don't know about that.  Less, for sure..but Shaq was still pretty dominant and Mourning was pretty good in those NBA playoffs.  People forget that Antoine Walker was a star with the Celtics...though he had some problems early with the Heat.  By the end of the season though....he was playing damn good ball. Not that bad a roster.

Lebron had the ball in his hands the majority of the 4th quarter in game 2, hence the monumental collapse. He tried to run out the clock, and then hoist up fade away 3 pointers with the shot clock winding down. Wade had the hot hand, 36 points already with 7 minutes remaining. Wade is a smarter player, a much better closer. Lebron has to realize this and either get him the ball, or attack the rim. He has the tools, but not sure he has the smarts/instincts to be the leagues best.

I agree...Lebron has issues closing.  We've seen it this series, again.

[LongGoneDay]

I would take Wade over Kobe in a heartbeat today. I think Wade has always been underrated, and maybe now more than ever. If the Heat win the title this year, Wade will be Finals MVP, not Lebron. Lebron is a freak of a player, but Wade doesn't disappear in big games. He has already won a ring with a much less talented Heat roster.

MUCH less talented Heat team?  I don't know about that.  Less, for sure..but Shaq was still pretty dominant and Mourning was pretty good in those NBA playoffs.  People forget that Antoine Walker was a star with the Celtics...though he had some problems early with the Heat.  By the end of the season though....he was playing damn good ball. Not that bad a roster.

Lebron had the ball in his hands the majority of the 4th quarter in game 2, hence the monumental collapse. He tried to run out the clock, and then hoist up fade away 3 pointers with the shot clock winding down. Wade had the hot hand, 36 points already with 7 minutes remaining. Wade is a smarter player, a much better closer. Lebron has to realize this and either get him the ball, or attack the rim. He has the tools, but not sure he has the smarts/instincts to be the leagues best.

I agree...Lebron has issues closing.  We've seen it this series, again.

I think both '06 and this years Heat teams were flawed, but I would say '06 was less talented because although they had Shaq, he wasn't LA Shaq. I was pretty pissed off when we traded Antoine away, and he did contribute to the Heat, but overall I don't think that Heat team had any business even being in the Finals. Take Wade off of that team and they probably don't sniff the playoffs. That was one of the most dominant postseason performances I've ever seen. I went out and bought the damn DVD of my teams rival!

I think Lebron needs Wade much more than Wade needs him, for reasons I've stated. Lebron has all the tools, but isn't a smart basketball player, and there's no reason to think that is going to change. He's an NBA veteran at this point, and you can't cure stupid. It's tough to call shots stupid when they go in, but he had some real bad possessions against the C's. They turned out to be daggers, but not high percentage shots, especially for him. (nitpicking I know, but just to the point of his basketball IQ) I will give him credit, at least he realized he needed Wade.

[pilferk]

Yes I totally understand that Lebron went "by the book" and was entitled to switch teams etc... But there are some unwritten rules about integrity and competitiveness and he pissed all over those, as many other players do today.

You know what....if the rules are unwritten then:

1) There's a reason they're unwritten.

2) They're not really rules.

[pilferk]

I think both '06 and this years Heat teams were flawed, but I would say '06 was less talented because although they had Shaq, he wasn't LA Shaq. I was pretty pissed off when we traded Antoine away, and he did contribute to the Heat, but overall I don't think that Heat team had any business even being in the Finals. Take Wade off of that team and they probably don't sniff the playoffs. That was one of the most dominant postseason performances I've ever seen. I went out and bought the damn DVD of my teams rival!

I agree....the 2006 team was less talented.  It was the added emphasis I took issue with. That 06 heat team was pretty good.  And while they didn't have LA Shaq, he was still playing elite level ball. (Speaking of Shaq...didn't he leave Orlando high and dry to go play with Malone and Kobe?).  They weren't chopped liver.

I think Lebron needs Wade much more than Wade needs him, for reasons I've stated. Lebron has all the tools, but isn't a smart basketball player, and there's no reason to think that is going to change. He's an NBA veteran at this point, and you can't cure stupid. It's tough to call shots stupid when they go in, but he had some real bad possessions against the C's. They turned out to be daggers, but not high percentage shots, especially for him. (nitpicking I know, but just to the point of his basketball IQ) I will give him credit, at least he realized he needed Wade.

I agree, to a point.  Lebron needs a closer, and a guy who can make good decisions with the ball.  He needs a guy who can take some of the focus off him.  There's only a couple places Lebron could've gone to get that: Chicago and Miami.  And Lebron needed that MORE than Wade needed Lebron (specifically).

But Wade, if he wanted another title, needed someone LIKE Lebron, too.  Wade isn't getting any younger.  He needed at least another elite level guy on his team if he wanted to win titles.  Bosch MIGHT have been enough....but that's questionable.  Lebron sealed it.

[LongGoneDay]

Agreed.

I don't think Lebron going to Miami was wrong by the way, I'm just in the camp that's not going to be as impressed as if he had done it with the Cavs.
It would have been pretty damn impressive if he had taken that team the distance. Now, playing alongside one of the best players in the league, there is really no excuse not to win. Unfortunately, so far it doesn't look like it's going to be an issue..

[Bodhi]

Yes I totally understand that Lebron went "by the book" and was entitled to switch teams etc... But there are some unwritten rules about integrity and competitiveness and he pissed all over those, as many other players do today.

You know what....if the rules are unwritten then:

1) There's a reason they're unwritten.

2) They're not really rules.

What about a having a sense of self pride?  It seems like you are fine with "oh he went along with the rules so thats good enough for me."  That doesn't work for me.  It was a bitch move, we all know that, and so does he.  Just because it was legal doesn't mean it was right.  I am saying that I would not be satisfied with winning a championship like this.  If he is that's great, but to me it would not be enough.  I'm old school, I believe in hard work, not taking short cuts.  I would have rather played 20 years and not gotten it done in Cleveland but gave it all my heart and effort than go to Miami and watch Dwayne Wade win a title for me(which is what he has been doing in the finals.)

[faldor]

I agree it would've been sweeter for Lebron to stay in Cleveland and win a championship being THE guy in his hometown, rather than playing second fiddle to a guy who's already won one.  But in the end, it's all about championships.  So however you can win them, then so be it.  The one thing you could say is that usually you take the easy road further down the road in your career.  Lebron chose to make that move much earlier and has put himself in line to win a handful of championships or more.  People probably would've respected the move a lot more if he did it 5 years from now.

Again, I hate Lebron for how he handled himself through the whole process, but I can't blame him for going to the Heat.  I think the Cavs were clearly the worst option he had.  The Heat and Bulls were by far the best.

[D]

I dont respect people who take shortcuts. that is what Lebron did.

U can say how magic had Kareem etc but he had to play a guy in bird with an equal team.

Lebron fixed the game pretty much and started a terrible trend that will ruin the league.

[pilferk]

U can say how magic had Kareem etc but he had to play a guy in bird with an equal team.

Again, the magic/bird comparisons are hyberbole.

There have been MANY dominant teams in the NBA, who didn't have to play "an equal team" during their run.  The Shaq/Kobe Lakers, for example.

And there is at least ONE "superpower" team forming in NY (they have 2 pieces...I suspect we'll see a 3rd whenever the NBA actually gets started again, though with the departure of Walsh I'm a bit less sure of it).

There's likely another forming in Chicago (because they really only need one more piece, too).

You can't honestly look back at this season for the Heat and say it's been "easy".

[pilferk]

What about a having a sense of self pride? 

What about putting your ego aside in the interests of winning a championship?  What about forgoing max money in the interests of playing on a better team with a chance to win?  How about being unselfish?

These are all things I see people complain about when it comes to superstars in sports...."They're just in it for the paycheck and will go to whoever pays them most" etc.

Lebron pretty much did exactly what many fans complain superstars DON'T do.  The only thing he DIDN'T do was confine himself to Cleveland for 20 years.  I can't fault him for that.

It seems like you are fine with "oh he went along with the rules so thats good enough for me." 

I think, in any profession, you function within the system and abide by the rules as presented to you.  Within those confines, you try to do the best you can and be the best at what you do.

That doesn't work for me.  It was a bitch move, we all know that, and so does he.  Just because it was legal doesn't mean it was right.

Actually....that's not true.  Because it's was legal DOES make it right.

It might not be popular.  It might not make everyone happy.  That's very different.  But the fact is:  The NBA can't stop player "collusion".  Doing so would actually be illegal, based on US labor laws.

  I am saying that I would not be satisfied with winning a championship like this.  If he is that's great, but to me it would not be enough.  I'm old school, I believe in hard work, not taking short cuts.  I would have rather played 20 years and not gotten it done in Cleveland but gave it all my heart and effort than go to Miami and watch Dwayne Wade win a title for me(which is what he has been doing in the finals.)

I think it's very easy to say that...when you're a fan, and not the guy playing.  Ask John Stockton and Dan Marino how THEY feel about it. I also don't think you can look at this team and say they're not working hard...because these guys are still busting their humps out there.  I think calling it a "short cut" is sort of a cop out.  It's not.  Not really.  You don't like it....which, as a fan, is fine.  But other than the emotional response...there's not really any REASON behind not liking it.  No rule was broken.  Lebron didn't do anything all that out of the ordinary (other than the WAY he/they did it). 

The BIGGEST difference in all this is that Cleveland held on to the very end, instead of working out a trade.  They actually let him hit FA.  You can't, honestly, tell me you thought that one of the biggest names and best players in the game was going to stay in the Cleveland market.  No way.  Lebron might not be the smartest ball player you've ever seen, but he's an AWFULLY smart business man (or else has awfully smart business people advising him).  Sure, "The Decision" harmed his brand...but not much else in his career has.

[Bodhi]

What about a having a sense of self pride? 

What about putting your ego aside in the interests of winning a championship?  What about forgoing max money in the interests of playing on a better team with a chance to win?  How about being unselfish?

That is where we differ, I feel that he didn't put his ego aside by going to Miami.  He did the opposite.  His ego couldn't take failure after failure every year on his shoulders in Miami, so he took the easy way out and is letting Dwayne Wade win the title for him.  You talk about being unselfish, I can't think of a more selfish move than what he pulled on Cleveland last summer.  You said yourself, he is going to team with a better chance to win, that is taking the easy way out.  He has better odds at winning with a team with superstars on it, why are we supposed to be impressed if he does what he supposed to do, which is win a title with a team that is clearly supposed to win the title?  Big deal.

You take comfort in law=right.  That is a whole other discussion all together.  There are many laws that I don't feel are "right."  Just because it is legal does not mean it is right.  I don't allow others to make up my moral code.

Also, you are really applauding this guy for "forgoing max money?"  The dude had a 90 million dollar contract from Nike when he was 18 before he even dribbled a basketball in the NBA.  As I mentioned earlier, John Stockton turned down numerous big money offers from major market teams like the Lakers because he was grateful to the Jazz for drafting him and wanted to see a job to the end.  He didn't have any of those endorsements.  He took less money to stay in a small market and as compensation he got guaranteed ice time at the Delta Center for his sons hockey team.  Class  Thats just it, these players today are so entitled it makes me sick.  They are not grateful to an organization for drafting them and giving them millions of dollars, they expect it.

You said ask John Stockton what he would say about it.  When he retired Stockton said "All you can do is prepare your best and lay it all out there, Im sure there are a lot of people who won championships who didn't have to work very hard at it, we worked very hard and haven't done it, yet I feel a lot of reward out of the effort."

From that statement, do you think John Stockton would be more proud if he won 3 titles with Jordan, Pippen and the Bulls, or coming up short busting his ass like he did with the Jazz.  Champions are not measured in awards or rings, they are measured in heart and loyalty, something Lebron has neither of.  Once again that is my view, I am a hard worker and have self respect, I can't imagine anyone with the same attributes thinking what Lebron James did was ok or good for competition.

[LunsJail]

Something stinky went down in Cleveland last year with Lebron, his teamates, and that organization. It hasn't really been talked about. Maybe it had something to do with his mother? Anyways, something pissed him off and he wanted out of there. I think that's why he quit in the Boston series. He was saying "See what happens to this team when I lay down". I'm not defending any of this but I think there's reasons besides just saying "He's selfish".

I felt bad for Cleveland until that owner said a bunch of stupid things. There's a reason some organizations succeed and some always seemed mired in mediocrity and it usually starts at the top.

Also, I would think Lebron has to realize that he, Wade, and Bosh winning some titles together isn't going to impress the hell out of anyone. I think he just doesn't want to lose. Bruises the ego. And let's not pretend these guys don't have egos. Comparing everyone to John Stockton is setting the personality bar a little high.

[D]

Damn Bodhi I've been battling u over Slash and other things but I agree 100 percent with u on this.

This is the same as if BIrd joined Magic or Jordan joined Ewing. the number 1-2 players in the NBA playing together.

[Bodhi]

Damn Bodhi I've been battling u over Slash and other things but I agree 100 percent with u on this.

This is the same as if BIrd joined Magic or Jordan joined Ewing. the number 1-2 players in the NBA playing together.

haha we agree more than we disagree on things.  And don't forget, I don't hate Slash, I am a huge fan, thats why I've been so pissed at what he's doing.

But fuck this Lebron guy....

[SpecialAgentCooper]

yes fuck Lebron...and another nice win for the Mavs tonight



Coop

[Eazy E]

This is the same as if BIrd joined Magic or Jordan joined Ewing. the number 1-2 players in the NBA playing together.

I don't see it as the same.  Like I said before, Wade & Lebron weren't rivals... they were never going to be rivals... they never even played a playoff series against each other.  This is not the same as Lebron teaming up with someone like Kobe or the Celtics who have bounced him from the playoffs for years.  These guys are playing as a team and making a sacrifice in their role as alpha dogs on their respective teams (which, BTW, the stat quo would be Miami barely making the playoffs and getting booted in the first round every year and Lebron winning 60+ games in the regular season with scrubs and losing in the conference finals).

These guys can't win... if they lost in the first round you guys would be saying "Fuck those guys, see?  You can't just toss talent together and take a shortcut to a title.  Basketball is a team sport.".... but since they are in the Finals everyone is saying "Fuck those guys, they took the easy way out".

In a league filled with guys bitching about not getting enough minutes and being overpaid to be "the man" on their teams, Lebron basically sacrificed the next 5 or 6 MVP awards and tons of positive media attention for a chance to win.  I don't look down on him for it......... I do look down on his performance in the 4th quarter of Game 4 though.....

[gilee7]

In the 4 games combined, Dirk has scored 44 points in the 4th quarter. Lebron has scored 9.

[pilferk]

This is the same as if BIrd joined Magic or Jordan joined Ewing. the number 1-2 players in the NBA playing together.

I don't see it as the same.  Like I said before, Wade & Lebron weren't rivals... they were never going to be rivals... they never even played a playoff series against each other.  This is not the same as Lebron teaming up with someone like Kobe or the Celtics who have bounced him from the playoffs for years.  These guys are playing as a team and making a sacrifice in their role as alpha dogs on their respective teams (which, BTW, the stat quo would be Miami barely making the playoffs and getting booted in the first round every year and Lebron winning 60+ games in the regular season with scrubs and losing in the conference finals).

These guys can't win... if they lost in the first round you guys would be saying "Fuck those guys, see?  You can't just toss talent together and take a shortcut to a title.  Basketball is a team sport.".... but since they are in the Finals everyone is saying "Fuck those guys, they took the easy way out".

In a league filled with guys bitching about not getting enough minutes and being overpaid to be "the man" on their teams, Lebron basically sacrificed the next 5 or 6 MVP awards and tons of positive media attention for a chance to win.  I don't look down on him for it......... I do look down on his performance in the 4th quarter of Game 4 though.....

I was going to reply to Bodhi...but you said exactly what I would have in your reply to D.

So rather than just repeating 90% of what you just said......I'll go with: I agree.

Lebron takes shit because he's Lebron.  He didn't leave Cleveland "the right way", and I get that people don't like it.  I DON'T like it.

But there is a difference between "I don't like it" and "He did something wrong".

I don't like cooked spinach.  I'm not going to sit here and try to justify it....because it's just the way I feel.  I get that some people don't like Lebron, and I'll be the first to say that the WAY he left, and the WAY he joined Miami rubbed me the wrong way.  Hell, I don't LIKE him all that much (which I bet will surprise a number of people in this thread).

But the point in all this is:  He's getting shit because he's Lebron.  You can make a pretty good case that, in an era when people bitch about people selling out and refusing to share the spotlight (*cough* Kobe *cough*), that Lebron did exactly what many sports fans wish superstars would do: Put winning above money, and put team above self.  Yes, there are people making counterarguments...BUT THATS THE POINT.  They don't like Lebron, so they kill him over every little thing.

Look, I'm no Lebron fan.  I'm a freaking Celtics fan, for God's sake....and I knew the guy was never coming to Boston.  I'm not rooting for Miami in this series...in fact I haven't found myself able to root for either team.  I'm just sort of watching because, either way, you know there's gonna be a "train wreck" effect from the outcome.  Having said all that...I can't kill a guy for doing what he's allowed to do, within the system that's set up.  I just can't.  I can't point to him and say "He's all that's wrong with the NBA"..there's just nothing there to support that argument.  Or, rather, there's too much evidence to the contrary.  He's not perfect. He's not a paragon. He's not even Jordan in his heyday (and he might never be.....Jordan would NEVER have had the game Lebron had last night).  He's a guy playing basketball at a VERY high level.  That's it.

This isn't the first superpower team....not in the NBA, not in sports.  Heck, it's not even the first time players have gotten together and decided to team up (check out the '83 Reds, for example...who ended up winning a World Series).  It happens.  People might not like it...and I get that...but it does.  And there really isn't any way to change it.

Couple other things:
Stockton would trade his left nut for an NBA title.  Marino would trade both of 'em.  Not having titles has effected both of their legacies.

Lebron's performance last night was, truly, pathetic.  I hear, though, there is good reason for it:  Space Jam3D.  The Mon-STARS stole his Mojo.

[pilferk]

Once again that is my view, I am a hard worker and have self respect, I can't imagine anyone with the same attributes thinking what Lebron James did was ok or good for competition.

One quick comment..since Easy E said most of what I would:

If you think everyone, even those with similar work ethic and self respect, are going to think EXACTLY like you...you are going to be woefully disappointed in people your entire life.  And if they really did, you'd be VERY bored.

Ditto if you think everyone is going to abide by your personal code of morality. 

I'm practical enough to know better than that.  That's why I hold people up to the standard of rules and law, rather than an uncommunicated (and in most cases unknown to the person it would be applied to), somewhat undefined personal standard of "right and wrong".  Someone, somewhere, thinks every event going on at every moment of every day is "wrong".

[Bodhi]

Once again that is my view, I am a hard worker and have self respect, I can't imagine anyone with the same attributes thinking what Lebron James did was ok or good for competition.

One quick comment..since Easy E said most of what I would:

If you think everyone, even those with similar work ethic and self respect, are going to think EXACTLY like you...you are going to be woefully disappointed in people your entire life.  And if they really did, you'd be VERY bored.

Ditto if you think everyone is going to abide by your personal code of morality. 

I'm practical enough to know better than that.  That's why I hold people up to the standard of rules and law, rather than an uncommunicated (and in most cases unknown to the person it would be applied to), somewhat undefined personal standard of "right and wrong".  Someone, somewhere, thinks every event going on at every moment of every day is "wrong".

I agree with what you are saying.  That is why I have a problem with what Lebron James.  I don't expect the whole world to.  Although I am a far from alone in this, millions feel the same way.  His actions last summer have opened up the door for this type of criticism. 

And yes, I AM woefully disappointed with people on a daily basis.