Koran Burning

[The Dog]

Religion is one giant hypocritical con designed to control people's minds.

I have to disagree there. I'm not particularly religious myself, but to say that all religion is a con or whatever just seems a bit.... short-sighted. I'm sure religion is responsible for a lot of good in the world, but that's not what usually makes the headlines. But some wacky American pastor threatening to burn some Korans becomes a worldwide story.

That guy is just bat shit crazy.  Sadly, more mainstream beliefs still are harmful to society, particularly this country.  Gay marriage, gays in the military are mostly opposed for religious reasons.  Creationism/intelligent design, saying no to stem cell research, is so blatantly anti-science... we are becoming a nation that is willingly, happily, being dumbed down.  Religions in other countries are the cause for tons of problems, look how women are treated in middle eastern countries.  The Israeli/Palestine conflict is b/c of religion.

[Genesis]

The pastor certainly has had an effect. 2 dead in protests in Afghanistan and 17 dead in Kashmir... Even though it didn't actually happen. Ridiculous.

[Skeba]

A pretty glance at all holy books..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr1I3mBojc0

But still.. The burning thing. Ramblings of an idiot made to mean something by people who's political agenda it happens to fit into.

[D]

The Dog

of course in hindsight Iraq was a terrible idea and a bad war.

However

I am trying to remember what post 9/11 was like and the hysteria. Bush allegedly was told by pretty high ranking officials that Iraq did have WMD's. So when Saddam balked at the UN inspectors and wouldn't let them do their job, it became a question of:
A: Ignore it, keep trying to get him to allow inspectors in
B: take action

Pre 9/11, its probably option A. Post 9/11, we couldn't take that chance, cause if he did have WMD's, it would've/could've been catastrophic. So I lean on the side that, I'd rather take action and not find something, then be passive and they do have them.

I still think a Democratic Iraq is great for the world as a whole and may turn out big over the next century. I use Japan as an example. Look at Japan pre and post WWII. They've become a world economic giant. Whoever thought? Iraq with their oil could do the same over the next half century but it takes time.

[Genesis]

The cost was too high. Hundreds of thousands of civilians dead, almost all infrastructure destroyed, an impotent government installed, oil and other resources looted, infighting between various sects, re-emergence or Al Qaeda, suicide bombings in Baghdad every other week. That's just what's in the press. The ground situation will be worse. All that for checking if he had WMDs?

Iraq could never have had nuclear weapons. They never had the technology. As for whether Iraq can survive being knocked back into the stone ages, it's anybody's guess.

[mrlee]

After 9/11, and then 7/7 almost everyone in the western world wanted war.

[domi]

Don't talk crap. First of all England and the USA is not the whole western world and secondly the London bombings took place two years after the US attacked the Iraq when everybody knew that they had no WMD.
So why would almost everyone in the whole western world would have wanted war?
What you wanted was revenge and control in the middle east!

[D]

The cost was too high. Hundreds of thousands of civilians dead, almost all infrastructure destroyed, an impotent government installed, oil and other resources looted, infighting between various sects, re-emergence or Al Qaeda, suicide bombings in Baghdad every other week. That's just what's in the press. The ground situation will be worse. All that for checking if he had WMDs?

Iraq could never have had nuclear weapons. They never had the technology. As for whether Iraq can survive being knocked back into the stone ages, it's anybody's guess.

not the technology, of course not, but through nuclear proliferation they could've purchased some.

back on the Qur'an issue, I think as a nation we have become a bit cocky and lost sight of why our ancestors broke away and came here in the first place.

Religious freedom... so for us to have our rights, u have to respect other people's rights. if i want to worship satan and stand on the corner preaching Satan's virtue, people should fuck off cause its my right to practice whatever i want.

Same with immigration and everything else. People forget WE ARE IMMIGRANTS. If the Natives murdered us off the boats we wouldn't be here prospering.

[dont_damn_me]

The cost was too high. Hundreds of thousands of civilians dead, almost all infrastructure destroyed, an impotent government installed, oil and other resources looted, infighting between various sects, re-emergence or Al Qaeda, suicide bombings in Baghdad every other week. That's just what's in the press. The ground situation will be worse. All that for checking if he had WMDs?

Iraq could never have had nuclear weapons. They never had the technology. As for whether Iraq can survive being knocked back into the stone ages, it's anybody's guess.

not the technology, of course not, but through nuclear proliferation they could've purchased some.

back on the Qur'an issue, I think as a nation we have become a bit cocky and lost sight of why our ancestors broke away and came here in the first place.

Religious freedom... so for us to have our rights, u have to respect other people's rights. if i want to worship satan and stand on the corner preaching Satan's virtue, people should fuck off cause its my right to practice whatever i want.

Same with immigration and everything else. People forget WE ARE IMMIGRANTS. If the Natives murdered us off the boats we wouldn't be here prospering.

Exactly, very well put D.......you know what your talking about.

I encourage all to check out "Zeitgeist" on youtube to begin the revolution.....or "Addendum"(zeitgeist2)   peace

[The Dog]

Don't talk crap. First of all England and the USA is not the whole western world and secondly the London bombings took place two years after the US attacked the Iraq when everybody knew that they had no WMD.
So why would almost everyone in the whole western world would have wanted war?
What you wanted was revenge and control in the middle east!

agreed. To say other wise is disingenuous to say the least.

On 9/12, people wanted Osama.  Iraq wasn't on ANYONE's mind.  Except for Bush's.  He was itching for a reason.  Rummy even said "Afghanistan has no good targets."  Jesus, talking about why we got into Iraq and how it evolved from a hunt for WMD to a liberation is boring.  Anyone trying to argue it was a just, necessary and positive effort is just full of shit.  End of discussion.

To D's point, sorry, I disagree.  Being brutally attacked doesn't give you the reason to start a full on war with another country b/c you "suspect" they might have weapons that could harm you.  Funny how we went after Iraq when Iran and N. Korea are the ones who actually have nuclear programs! And their anti-American rhetoric is pretty high. Should we go to war with them too?  Starting a war that only pissed off our enemies and turned moderates into radicals only made us less safe.  Starting a war while lowering taxes only made us spend more and take in less. 

Osama is laughing his ass off in a cave somewhere.  He is winning this "war" - the "ground zero mosque" and book burning are evidence of that.  Along with a divided US and a huge deficit.  Americans weren't asked to sacrifice anything, no war taxes, no draft... and here we sit now, whining and crying that things are bad.  We allowed it to happen, we let it happen.  Vote Bush out in 2004 and who knows where we'd be now.  Oh wait, silly me, God forbid the gays get married though... phew, thank the lord that didn't happen back then, or else the US would be in REAL trouble...

Which leads me back to why religion is retarded...  For christ's sake, I think it's something like a 1/4 of republicans think the President of the US isn't actually a US citizen and/or is a Muslim? We're doomed.

[Genesis]

Religious freedom... so for us to have our rights, u have to respect other people's rights. if i want to worship satan and stand on the corner preaching Satan's virtue, people should fuck off cause its my right to practice whatever i want.

Same with immigration and everything else. People forget WE ARE IMMIGRANTS. If the Natives murdered us off the boats we wouldn't be here prospering.

Religious freedom is a bit murky. The pastor wasn't arrested because they say he has the freedom to do what he wants but does that include intentionally burning a book considered holy by a group of people?

[Halo69]

I dont think thats a crime, its just a book, and you can do whatever you want anyways, hell i can grab all the holy books from all religions, join them with all the countries in the world flags and make a big barbeque with it   

What change will that have in the world?.... People are to be blamed by their own actions and not by the actions they claim to have because others do this and that...

I can agree that what the pastor did may incite protests and things like that, since he made it public and since he was looking for that anyways... You cant say he wasnt looking to do some harm to those who believe in the Koran by doing something like that, and i can understand that some people really take it that seriously, maybe im too open minded about it, but hell if you're gonna kill people because someone has burned a book, you gotta be a fucking retard, and maybe a little bit fucked up in the head...

Sure its lack of respect... well let the pastor pay for his sins in hell, if they believe in Ala, they believe that this guy is gonna pay later for his sins, so whats the point in starting riots and religion protests...that only is gonna make it worst, even if you're that fanatic about a certain religion...

Maybe they should just enjoy a coca cola, and tell that he's a big slut, and they would like to put their balls in his mouth 

He didnt kill anyone anyways, he murdered a book... sure it was disrespectful... but hell... i can list all kinds of disrespectful stuff that happens everyday to everyone, and i dont need to do any protests, or start any riots, i just tell them to fuck themselves and get out of my sack

[Genesis]

I guess I agree with what you're saying. I also appreciate the fact that while everyone from the President down condemned his actions, he wasn't arrested. Anywhere else, he would have been pre emptively put in prison for trying to cause 'communal disharmony'.

[norway]

It's equally everyone else's book!

Religious freedom is a bit murky. The pastor wasn't arrested because they say he has the freedom to do what he wants but does that include intentionally burning a book considered holy by a group of people?

Actually pig is a holy animal, somewhat. A lot of Vanir (godgroup) symbols are desecrated.

Does that mean...?

[Genesis]

Fine. I see your point.

[D]

The guy has the right to burn the book if he wants, I'm all for freedom to do what you want. I am only saying its stupid to do so and accomplishes nothing but causing an even bigger holy war for no other reason than this jackoff gaining publicity and notoriety.

New York is the biggest melting pot of nationalties in the world and like Obama said, it alienates millions of Muslims that are great people, people u work with, your kids go to school with. I don't agree with Obama on a lot, but he was spot on with that.

Cause if you say Muslims can't build a mosque, that is a Civil Rights issue and if u make an exception to that, it opens up a whole new can of worms. Should the Catholic churches be torn down cause a small percentage of priests molested boys? Of course not. All Stereotypes are bad and destructive under any circumstance.

The Republicans are masterminds of manipulating the huge percentage of uneducated vote. *not saying republicans are uneducated, saying they have a great way of tapping into the undecided population through fear and what ifs. Better re elect Bush or terrorists will take over the world kinda hyperbole. The whole terror level meter on the news. its all fear to control you.

[D]

I dont think thats a crime, its just a book, and you can do whatever you want anyways, hell i can grab all the holy books from all religions, join them with all the countries in the world flags and make a big barbeque with it   

What change will that have in the world?.... People are to be blamed by their own actions and not by the actions they claim to have because others do this and that...

I can agree that what the pastor did may incite protests and things like that, since he made it public and since he was looking for that anyways... You cant say he wasnt looking to do some harm to those who believe in the Koran by doing something like that, and i can understand that some people really take it that seriously, maybe im too open minded about it, but hell if you're gonna kill people because someone has burned a book, you gotta be a fucking retard, and maybe a little bit fucked up in the head...

Sure its lack of respect... well let the pastor pay for his sins in hell, if they believe in Ala, they believe that this guy is gonna pay later for his sins, so whats the point in starting riots and religion protests...that only is gonna make it worst, even if you're that fanatic about a certain religion...

Maybe they should just enjoy a coca cola, and tell that he's a big slut, and they would like to put their balls in his mouth 

He didnt kill anyone anyways, he murdered a book... sure it was disrespectful... but hell... i can list all kinds of disrespectful stuff that happens everyday to everyone, and i dont need to do any protests, or start any riots, i just tell them to fuck themselves and get out of my sack

my whole problem with it is, u have the jihad brainwashing youth that America is evil and they must be destroyed etc etc and showing an American burning and desecrating their Holy book will only drum up and infuriate and make for an even bigger/better recruiting tool of terrorist. it will make them feel even more justified in their actions. I think religion is kinda silly but we who think its only a book are in the HUGE minority. people strap bombs to themselves in the name of their Gods. why piss them off?

[D]

Don't talk crap. First of all England and the USA is not the whole western world and secondly the London bombings took place two years after the US attacked the Iraq when everybody knew that they had no WMD.
So why would almost everyone in the whole western world would have wanted war?
What you wanted was revenge and control in the middle east!

agreed. To say other wise is disingenuous to say the least.

On 9/12, people wanted Osama.  Iraq wasn't on ANYONE's mind.  Except for Bush's.  He was itching for a reason.  Rummy even said "Afghanistan has no good targets."  Jesus, talking about why we got into Iraq and how it evolved from a hunt for WMD to a liberation is boring.  Anyone trying to argue it was a just, necessary and positive effort is just full of shit.  End of discussion.

To D's point, sorry, I disagree.  Being brutally attacked doesn't give you the reason to start a full on war with another country b/c you "suspect" they might have weapons that could harm you.  Funny how we went after Iraq when Iran and N. Korea are the ones who actually have nuclear programs! And their anti-American rhetoric is pretty high. Should we go to war with them too?  Starting a war that only pissed off our enemies and turned moderates into radicals only made us less safe.  Starting a war while lowering taxes only made us spend more and take in less. 

Osama is laughing his ass off in a cave somewhere.  He is winning this "war" - the "ground zero mosque" and book burning are evidence of that.  Along with a divided US and a huge deficit.  Americans weren't asked to sacrifice anything, no war taxes, no draft... and here we sit now, whining and crying that things are bad.  We allowed it to happen, we let it happen.  Vote Bush out in 2004 and who knows where we'd be now.  Oh wait, silly me, God forbid the gays get married though... phew, thank the lord that didn't happen back then, or else the US would be in REAL trouble...

Which leads me back to why religion is retarded...  For christ's sake, I think it's something like a 1/4 of republicans think the President of the US isn't actually a US citizen and/or is a Muslim? We're doomed.

Mods: Sorry for the triple post. i have no idea how to quote multiples still! LOL!

anyhow, I don't disagree with u. Im not one of these people who are 100 percent behind Bush and what happened. I see the reasonsing behind it and can kind of see where they were coming from. I do think its shitty of Congress tothrow Bush under the bus and not own up to their own mistakes. I think the entire country jumped the gun,maybe were misled a bit but I disagree with those who say Bush was gaining revenge for his dad or in it for oil. N Korea and IRan weren't a direct threat at the time. Iraq did breach sanctions. so it wasn't a giant stretch. they could've got invaded for that lone. Sure Bush took his eye off the true target, can't deny or defend that.

[Genesis]

Another madness that refuses to die down:

Muhammad row cartoonist 'in hiding'

[D]

Stupid is all i can say

She gets the Darwinism award.