When did Guns N' Roses become so fashionable? - Guardian Music Article

[D]

well saying how the old band were hated,unpopular and a guilty pleasure u wouldn't admit to liking and then having "Fans" on here agree just because he later praises the new band... seems pretty accurate to me.

[jarmo]

well saying how the old band were hated,unpopular and a guilty pleasure u wouldn't admit to liking and then having "Fans" on here agree just because he later praises the new band... seems pretty accurate to me.

I've tried explaining this to you so many times and you seem to either not get it or just ignore it.


Yes, there was a moment when certain people would rather wear a Nirvana t-shirt than be seen in public with a GN'R shirt.

Does that mean GN'R sucks? No.

Yes, there was a time when people wouldn't mention GN'R as their favorite band because other genres were more "hip".

Does that mean GN'R sucks? No.



Get it now?

I was there.

So were many others.





/jarmo

[faldor]

^
Faldor stop selectively reading

read what it says AFTERRRRRRRRRRRRR that.

Jesus Christ.

Amazes me how even GNR fans hate on a certain era of the band which without we  wouldn't be on here even talking today.

It isn't about new vs old, its Guns N Roses and Axl regardless of the year.

Give me a break D, you're doing the same exact thing.  You're putting emphasis on ONE statement and taking that as a bash to the original and UYI lineups.  I don't agree that GNR were never popular and that people were always afraid to admit they were a fan, but if that's the guys opinion, then so be it.  Nobody's taking anything away from any era of GNR, despite what you want to believe.

[Is he struggling?]

On the subject of good press coverage for G n R, there's a positive article about Axl in this weeks NME (yes, you read correctly, the NME).

It's not online (and I don't have any scans - I'm not actually going to pay to read the NME), but the article basically dispels all the myths about Axl being some insane diva who doesn't care about his fans. It shows that he has actually put forward a decent account of how the old band split up and why CD took so long, and also has plenty of quotes from people who know him, and know that he's actually super-cool in reall life. (A lot of quotes from his webchats with us and his interview with Spinner are in there too). They finish up by giving props to the new line up as a relaevant, legit band, rather than being just a heirtage act.

I still can't believe the NME gave over three pages to being nice about Axl. They might be back to slagging him off next week (they are notoriously fickle like that), so lets enjoy while we can.

[D]

^
Faldor stop selectively reading

read what it says AFTERRRRRRRRRRRRR that.

Jesus Christ.

Amazes me how even GNR fans hate on a certain era of the band which without we  wouldn't be on here even talking today.

It isn't about new vs old, its Guns N Roses and Axl regardless of the year.

Give me a break D, you're doing the same exact thing.  You're putting emphasis on ONE statement and taking that as a bash to the original and UYI lineups.  I don't agree that GNR were never popular and that people were always afraid to admit they were a fan, but if that's the guys opinion, then so be it.  Nobody's taking anything away from any era of GNR, despite what you want to believe.

I wasn't judging the entire article on that one statement. I gave kudos for the rest of the article.. although I wanna see this guy's follow up piece after tonight.... I wasn't slagging the entire article. I was pointing out that one part and condemning it. Rest of the article was great.

[Vicious Wishes]

I'm kinda surprised so many on here think this is a 100% positive article. I really see both sides. The first half seems to kinda diss GnR, while the second half seems to praise it.
The overall message is positive, but the first time I read it, halfway through, it didn't seem very positive.
I liked the ending, but it was a little rough getting there.

[draguns]

Good article! I think that it shows how GNR is popular again. I do have to agree with D on his point though. For those that lived through that era of music like myself, it was Pearl Jam that got big first BEFORE Nirvana.  It's true that after the Spaghetti Incident GNR's popularity and coolness declined.  However, when Kurt Cobain decided to kill himself in April 1994, that's when MTV rewrote history and decided to make Nirvana "their" band. Don't get me wrong. Nirvana was big but NOT as big until Cobain committed suicide It changed everything in music..  Additionally, people still wanted to hear GNR when "Sympathy of the Devil" was released. We all know that was the death knell of old GNR.

[D]

plus im not sure the music was ever uncool... i think they got maybe unpopular and disliked due to alot of how the media portrayed Axl and their hatred for him. So he got painted in such a negative light etc

[Continental Drift]

plus im not sure the music was ever uncool... i think they got maybe unpopular and disliked due to alot of how the media portrayed Axl and their hatred for him. So he got painted in such a negative light etc

D-

I think the writer was just being a little "free and loose" with precise dates rather than intentionally trying to insult the early 90's band. Had he simply said "GN'R's fortunes or 'coolness' began to fade in late 1993..." or whatever instead of the more general "early 90's"- I doubt there's any argument here at all.

Frankly- I think it's probably just more a function of a guy going back through his cd collection and recognizing that Nevermind and Ten both came out in 1991 and sloppily "assuming" or "misremembering" that therefore meant that GN'R was no longer cool immediately thereafter. We ALL know that was clearly not the case though... GN'R were absolutely massive world-wide well into 1993. They had begun to draw a lot of flak for some of their antics on tour and the Guns v. Nirvana and Guns v. Metallica feuds were in full force- but there was NO embarrassment whatsoever in declaring yourself a Guns N' Roses fan until maybe 1994 (beginning of the mid 90's). At least where I lived (two fairly "trendy" places in Connecticut and Toronto, Canada).

Personally, I think the problem here is that GN'R was much more of a "transitional" band between the late 80's to the early 90's than an "80's band" and I think that frequently confounds music critics and writers when writing about the band from a historical perspective. It just doesn't fit tightly into the neat little music history narrative they want. The fact of the matter was that Guns had all the bombast, danger and decadence of 70's and 80's rock AND the sincerity and dedication to craft that was to become the reputational hallmarks of 90's grunge music. Arguably Guns "opened the door" or "foreshadowed" the rise of grunge in many respects. I think that really twists people up sometime (regardless of whether they're pro-Guns or pro-grunge or whatever)...

At any rate- no real crime or foul (it's not something we haven't seen already a million times) here- and this is definitely a kick ass and accurate article in nearly every other respect.

[Buddha_Master]

Let's be honest. There was a time GNR was absolutely not cool. I think it occurred to me that the train was derailing when I was watching this behind the scenes thing, and backstage Duff was talking about how import his hair dryer was. Between that, and those fucking dumb bitches dancing and playing their flutes and shit on stage. My god (well, you know, if I actually believed there was one) I hated that. Even Axl and his bike shorts... well, actually it is funny as shit he wore shit like that. Axl today is a billion times cooler looking then bike shorts Axl.

I remember thinking what the fuck is going on here. Here were my heroes who single handily killed Glam Rock, and they are suddenly concerned with blow dryers and wearing bike shorts, and have dumb bitches playing wind instruments in the band. Not surprising at at these fucking grunge bands took over. "Classic" GNR lost there way and let it happen.


Today though, things are definitely better and Uncle Axl is getting the last laugh. Redemption is a motherfucker.

[SkeletorSerpent]

Well said MaoAxl, "I think the problem here is that GN'R was much more of a "transitional" band between the late 80's to the early 90's than an "80's band" and I think that frequently confounds music critics and writers when writing about the band from a historical perspective. It just doesn't fit tightly into the neat little music history narrative they want. The fact of the matter was that Guns had all the bombast, danger and decadence of 70's and 80's rock AND the sincerity and dedication to craft that was to become the reputational hallmarks of 90's grunge music. Arguably Guns "opened the door" or "foreshadowed" the rise of grunge in many respects. I think that really twists people up sometime (regardless of whether they're pro-Guns or pro-grunge or whatever)..."

You are spot-on with your historical assessment of Gnr, the late 80s, and early 90s hard rock scene, again, well said.

For me, all of the singing and dancing bitches with flutes and wind instruments was reminiscent of a Rolling Stones concert, so I loved the grandiose, classic rock direction of the Illusion era (horns, back-up fly girls, grand pianos, epic videos, etc.) They were a bunch of red neck punks who were really fucking talented. For me, I thought Gnr could do it all. They were clearly the perfect mix of metal, classic rock, blues, southern rock, heavy metal, punk, honky tonk, and even a bit of jive and groove from hip hop). Gnr had a flow and groove unlike any of the other 80s bands; they weren't just another heavy party band. They were a conglomeration of all my favorite bands, yet they still managed to be fresh, original, and unlike any other band before or during their time. I liked their raw, bluesy stripped down Appetite days that were clearly the death blow to hairspray and leopard spandex rock. They also opened the doors for the darker, underground music of the 90s, definitely a transition band but also their own "era" or genre. When rock historians talk about this time period, it should go 80s Hairbands > Guns N Roses > Pearl Jam (grunge/alternative), not 80s Hairbands > Nirvana
I think the reason for their phenomenal success and global appeal was that they were so eclectic and drew from so many different sources and bands for inspiration. Their music was unbelievably catchy, poppy, and melodic while still remaining sleezy, heavy, and brutal. I remember being mesmerized by the SCOM video and the imagery of the band. I knew immediately that they were something special and different. They had a retro vibe while still appearing original and groundbreaking. It was like taking a blender and mixing The Rolling Stones with the Sex Pistols, AC/DC with the Ramones, Led Zeppelin with Willie Nelson, Aerosmith with David Allan Coe, Pink Floyd with Creedence Clearwater Revival, Lynyrd Skynyrd with Black Sabbath. They had the pure rage of punk but the complexity of 70s prog and glam rock. They had the bluesy riffs and groovy jives and the heavy licks. They just kicked the shit out of everything. They could produce ballads and hard rock anthems, so their appeal was so broad.

It wasn't so much Pearl Jam, Nirvana, or grunge music in general that led to Gnr's demise. It was really a shift to alternative, indie rock in popular culture. I remember hearing people saying "Gnr are too mainstream," or "too corporate." It was never "Pearl Jam is cool, Gnr suck." Rock fans distanced themselves from popular music and established labels. Big American rock bands and rock starts weren't cool anymore. Underground bands from the 80s exploded in the early 90s (REM, RHCP, Green Day, NIN, Henry Rollins, Dead Kennedys, Skinny Puppy, Sonic Youth,) Many of the early 90s bands were just 80s punk and alternative bands rising to the surface from the anti-corporate underground.

[D]

plus im not sure the music was ever uncool... i think they got maybe unpopular and disliked due to alot of how the media portrayed Axl and their hatred for him. So he got painted in such a negative light etc

D-

I think the writer was just being a little "free and loose" with precise dates rather than intentionally trying to insult the early 90's band. Had he simply said "GN'R's fortunes or 'coolness' began to fade in late 1993..." or whatever instead of the more general "early 90's"- I doubt there's any argument here at all.

Frankly- I think it's probably just more a function of a guy going back through his cd collection and recognizing that Nevermind and Ten both came out in 1991 and sloppily "assuming" or "misremembering" that therefore meant that GN'R was no longer cool immediately thereafter. We ALL know that was clearly not the case though... GN'R were absolutely massive world-wide well into 1993. They had begun to draw a lot of flak for some of their antics on tour and the Guns v. Nirvana and Guns v. Metallica feuds were in full force- but there was NO embarrassment whatsoever in declaring yourself a Guns N' Roses fan until maybe 1994 (beginning of the mid 90's). At least where I lived (two fairly "trendy" places in Connecticut and Toronto, Canada).

Personally, I think the problem here is that GN'R was much more of a "transitional" band between the late 80's to the early 90's than an "80's band" and I think that frequently confounds music critics and writers when writing about the band from a historical perspective. It just doesn't fit tightly into the neat little music history narrative they want. The fact of the matter was that Guns had all the bombast, danger and decadence of 70's and 80's rock AND the sincerity and dedication to craft that was to become the reputational hallmarks of 90's grunge music. Arguably Guns "opened the door" or "foreshadowed" the rise of grunge in many respects. I think that really twists people up sometime (regardless of whether they're pro-Guns or pro-grunge or whatever)...

At any rate- no real crime or foul (it's not something we haven't seen already a million times) here- and this is definitely a kick ass and accurate article in nearly every other respect.

Great post and yeah nice points.

[Continental Drift]

Great post SkeletorSerpent. I don't think I've seen the unique GN'R "sound" or "aura" described in such a detailed and accurate fashion. Really well done. The amazing thing was (and still a part of the GN'R "experience" even today) that they had all those incredible music bona fides you described and combined it with a "Mike Tyson Fight" type of primal energy or flat out "fear" in a live setting and just how they went about their business generally. They were the "white" NWA. On any given night you didn't know if the whole arena would burn down, they would deliver the greatest live performance since Zeppelin prowled the stage, if the band would break-up, or if you would pick up the paper the next morning and read that one of them had od'd or had been killed while resisting arrest or something... Most of all it was REAL. 1,000 successful bands couldn't recreate it if they tried- and for that reason alone- despite a relatively brief "uncool" period (94-99)- GN'R will always have a place in rock history as a "legendary" band best representing true rock n' roll rebelliousness and chaos...

It wasn't so much Pearl Jam, Nirvana, or grunge music in general that led to Gnr's demise. It was really a shift to alternative, indie rock in popular culture. I remember hearing people saying "Gnr are too mainstream," or "too corporate." It was never "Pearl Jam is cool, Gnr suck." Rock fans distanced themselves from popular music and established labels. Big American rock bands and rock starts weren't cool anymore. Underground bands from the 80s exploded in the early 90s (REM, RHCP, Green Day, NIN, Henry Rollins, Dead Kennedys, Skinny Puppy, Sonic Youth,) Many of the early 90s bands were just 80s punk and alternative bands rising to the surface from the anti-corporate underground.

Want to touch on this b/c I think you're particularly right on here. The nature of the flak Guns took during the 93/94-99 years (i.e. right up until the "What the World Needs Now is Axl Rose" Spin article in '99) was really more that they had "sold out", "gone corporate" or "were too mainstream". In particular I remember a good friend of mine who was a big Pearl Jam fan (and decent GN'R fan too) rubbing the "The Spaghetti Incident?" booklet in my face in 1994 or so and criticizing GN'R for thanking all their "corporate sponsors and promoters world-wide" or whatever. GN'R was "a joke" and "finished" for thanking "a bunch of suits".

At any rate IMHO it was really a case where the industry realized how great GN'R was from a music perspective and was banking on them as the "American Rolling Stones" or whatever and afforded them every opportunity- such as it was available in the early 90's- (double album, extravagent videos, tours, pay-per view concerts, lawyers, etc.)- to get their name and music out there- and GN'R were happy to lap it all up in true decadent 70's style. GN'R was basically just being like their heroes times 10. They were being ridiculously decadent- but it was what they wanted to do so they did it- consequences be damned.

Anyway, by late '93 or so- all the special treatment resulted in a TON of jealousy amongst their peers (some of which still persists today) and left GN'R particularly vulnerable to criticism and hatred when the stripped down grunge revolution (as stated- ironically coming in through the door GN'R had opened for legitimate music) arrived and took hold during the same time period. The "soft underbelly" of GN'R come late '93 was definitely that they were "too corporate" and "sellouts" though (as well as the fact that the band was literally splintering apart at the time)- NOT that the music sucked. No matter what ultimately happened to the band- anyone with any sort of rock music knowledge knew that tracks like "WWTJ", "SCOM", "PC", "Patience", "KOHD", "YCBM", "Don't Cry", "NR" were here to stay. A million Kurt Cobains could not legislate GREAT music like that out of music history- no matter what. Time has definitely borne that out...

 

[scans n' copies]

Great post, Skeletor! 

I've talked music with friends and been asked the question of "What is it about Gn'R that you love so much?"  Your post illustrates that perfectly. 

Thanks, brotha

[demanding_GNR_rock]

Great posts guys,

Not being around in the 'glory years' puts me at a disadvantage but the history speaks for itself...... Being brutishly honest GNR had what 3 albums of which 1 single the next a double.  In only 3 albums the band is ranked alongside all the greats mentioned above who had many more albums and many more years together and a band. This alone shows how massive GNR were at the time so obviously it couldn't be maintained hence the GNR unpopular period but sometimes it takes a few 'decades' for people to realize that. 

[Is he struggling?]

Here in the UK, Gn'R have been panned in the media almost constantly since 1987 (albeit with the odd bit of grudging praise). And do you know what... they're still doing sold out shows.

So let's not get too hung up on the idea of whether they (and we) are fashionable or not. Let's see how today's crop of 'fashionable' bands are doing in 20 years time...

The last laugh will be ours.

[D]

In my defense  i saw a Beavis and Butthead episode and they were rocking out and loving PC. guess it was early/mid 90's right?

[faldor]

In my defense  i saw a Beavis and Butthead episode and they were rocking out and loving PC. guess it was early/mid 90's right?

GNR were Beavis and Butthead's type of music.  They liked rock, not grunge.

[SkeletorSerpent]

Beavis and Butthead were always pro-Gnr. I think once they made a comment about Axl wearing a kilt, but never mocked or dissed Gnr or Axl.

[Limulus]

In my defense  i saw a Beavis and Butthead episode and they were rocking out and loving PC. guess it was early/mid 90's right?

yes, early/mid 90s when GN'R have been about the biggest band in the world.

Beavis and Butthead were always pro-Gnr. I think once they made a comment about Axl wearing a kilt, but never mocked or dissed Gnr or Axl.

yes, they also talked bad about Axl at points but mostly they rocked them. this doesnt mean shit though as they often rocked and bashed for the same bands, similar to Blabbermouth posters. i've always liked the GN'R references!