Axl Rose Slams Irving Azoff In $5 Million Countersuit

[LunsJail]

In any event, I don't see how you can lay the low-ish record sales entirely on Azoff's door.  Seems to me he helped secure a pretty huge no-return pre-order from Best Buy that guaranteed a lot of sales -- and Best Buy ended up eating a lot of these sales, not GnR.  Also, Axl did next to nothing to promote CD (now, maybe Azoff's acts and lack of promotion caused Axl to say "what the fuck!", but that's still self-sabotage in some ways).  Moreover, the long wait led to this record entering a record-buying climate that pretty much doomed big sales from the outset, irrespective of whatever marketing you did.  NOTHING (other than flukes like Susan Boyle) is selling big nowadays: you can move 60,000 units in Week 1 and have a Number 1 record on the charts.  Remember when CDs sold hundreds of thousands (if not well over 1 million) in opening weeks to claim No. 1 position? You can't put the years of delays on Azoff's watch.

So, whatever asshole things Azoff did (and I am inclined to believe that much of what Axl claims is true), they are just part of the story in CD not selling as well as it maybe could have.

You made several great points here. Since this story came out I've read a lot of "Now we know what happened with CD" types of posts and that's just silly. Blaming Azoff for everything is way too simple.

Also, I can't imagine any manager doing a deal with Best Buy and then delivering them a product with incorrect liner notes. So some of the claims here seem a little preposterous.

[Ali]

In any event, I don't see how you can lay the low-ish record sales entirely on Azoff's door.  Seems to me he helped secure a pretty huge no-return pre-order from Best Buy that guaranteed a lot of sales -- and Best Buy ended up eating a lot of these sales, not GnR.  Also, Axl did next to nothing to promote CD (now, maybe Azoff's acts and lack of promotion caused Axl to say "what the fuck!", but that's still self-sabotage in some ways).  Moreover, the long wait led to this record entering a record-buying climate that pretty much doomed big sales from the outset, irrespective of whatever marketing you did.  NOTHING (other than flukes like Susan Boyle) is selling big nowadays: you can move 60,000 units in Week 1 and have a Number 1 record on the charts.  Remember when CDs sold hundreds of thousands (if not well over 1 million) in opening weeks to claim No. 1 position? You can't put the years of delays on Azoff's watch.

So, whatever asshole things Azoff did (and I am inclined to believe that much of what Axl claims is true), they are just part of the story in CD not selling as well as it maybe could have.

You made several great points here. Since this story came out I've read a lot of "Now we know what happened with CD" types of posts and that's just silly. Blaming Azoff for everything is way too simple.

Also, I can't imagine any manager doing a deal with Best Buy and then delivering them a product with incorrect liner notes. So some of the claims here seem a little preposterous.

I can imagine that.  Whether or not it was intentional or not, I believe it.  If for no other reason than Axl vented about it on the message boards mere weeks after the album's release.  Who else from the GN'R side would've approved the liner notes?  It's either Axl on behalf of himself and the band, or management.  Who else could've communicated with the label and approved the liner notes?

Ali

[LunsJail]

In any event, I don't see how you can lay the low-ish record sales entirely on Azoff's door.  Seems to me he helped secure a pretty huge no-return pre-order from Best Buy that guaranteed a lot of sales -- and Best Buy ended up eating a lot of these sales, not GnR.  Also, Axl did next to nothing to promote CD (now, maybe Azoff's acts and lack of promotion caused Axl to say "what the fuck!", but that's still self-sabotage in some ways).  Moreover, the long wait led to this record entering a record-buying climate that pretty much doomed big sales from the outset, irrespective of whatever marketing you did.  NOTHING (other than flukes like Susan Boyle) is selling big nowadays: you can move 60,000 units in Week 1 and have a Number 1 record on the charts.  Remember when CDs sold hundreds of thousands (if not well over 1 million) in opening weeks to claim No. 1 position? You can't put the years of delays on Azoff's watch.

So, whatever asshole things Azoff did (and I am inclined to believe that much of what Axl claims is true), they are just part of the story in CD not selling as well as it maybe could have.

You made several great points here. Since this story came out I've read a lot of "Now we know what happened with CD" types of posts and that's just silly. Blaming Azoff for everything is way too simple.

Also, I can't imagine any manager doing a deal with Best Buy and then delivering them a product with incorrect liner notes. So some of the claims here seem a little preposterous.

I can imagine that.  Whether or not it was intentional or not, I believe it.  If for no other reason than Axl vented about it on the message boards mere weeks after the album's release.  Who else from the GN'R side would've approved the liner notes?  It's either Axl on behalf of himself and the band, or management.  Who else could've communicated with the label and approved the liner notes?

Ali

But from where would management, the label, or anyone else even have obtained incorrect liner notes?

[Ali]

In any event, I don't see how you can lay the low-ish record sales entirely on Azoff's door.  Seems to me he helped secure a pretty huge no-return pre-order from Best Buy that guaranteed a lot of sales -- and Best Buy ended up eating a lot of these sales, not GnR.  Also, Axl did next to nothing to promote CD (now, maybe Azoff's acts and lack of promotion caused Axl to say "what the fuck!", but that's still self-sabotage in some ways).  Moreover, the long wait led to this record entering a record-buying climate that pretty much doomed big sales from the outset, irrespective of whatever marketing you did.  NOTHING (other than flukes like Susan Boyle) is selling big nowadays: you can move 60,000 units in Week 1 and have a Number 1 record on the charts.  Remember when CDs sold hundreds of thousands (if not well over 1 million) in opening weeks to claim No. 1 position? You can't put the years of delays on Azoff's watch.

So, whatever asshole things Azoff did (and I am inclined to believe that much of what Axl claims is true), they are just part of the story in CD not selling as well as it maybe could have.

You made several great points here. Since this story came out I've read a lot of "Now we know what happened with CD" types of posts and that's just silly. Blaming Azoff for everything is way too simple.

Also, I can't imagine any manager doing a deal with Best Buy and then delivering them a product with incorrect liner notes. So some of the claims here seem a little preposterous.

I can imagine that.  Whether or not it was intentional or not, I believe it.  If for no other reason than Axl vented about it on the message boards mere weeks after the album's release.  Who else from the GN'R side would've approved the liner notes?  It's either Axl on behalf of himself and the band, or management.  Who else could've communicated with the label and approved the liner notes?

Ali

But from where would management, the label, or anyone else even have obtained incorrect liner notes?

As Axl explained, they were a draft set of liner notes.  The original draft went out and was not submitted for final approval to Axl to point out the corrections that needed to be made to the draft version.  Where they got the draft version is irrelevant because Axl had final approval on the artwork and liner notes.  What is relevant is that the draft version was not corrected and was approved for use as the final version.  There is no one else on the GN'R side that could've made that approval other than management that I can see.

The way I see it, a draft version was put together and distributed for review.  Axl and co. looked at the draft and realized there were mistakes and wanted to correct them, as was his right in having final approval.  Than, for some reason, someone other than Axl said the draft version was in fact the final version.  That's what I think happened.

Ali

[D]

i know everyone is pissed at Azoff right now, and rightfully so.  But you have to remember that music is a business and businessmen want money.

Axl will always find it hard to find a manager that doesn't secretly want a reunion.  Its just too lucrative for a businessman not to want.  Don't be surprised at all if Doc has the same agenda.  Wasn't it Doc that convinced Motley to bring back Vince?

My point is that any manager would drop the rest of the band if a reunion was on the cards.  Not all managers would try to force it like Azoff has but they would all jump at the chance if possible.

no Doc got fired from Motley in 89, they didnt bring Vince back to 93-94 but the record label forced their hand to do so or told them they wouldn't support anymore of their albums. could see interscope doing something shitty  like that.

[killingvector]

Azoff is known as a pretty rough and tumble guy, and, frankly, a prick, it seems.  (Read Don Felder's book about the Eagles and you will get a real flavor of Azoff's very hard-nosed tactics.)

That said, I have to say that Axl's relationships with past managers (Doug, Merck) have also ended badly, as have many of his relationships with ex-bandmates and others.  So, there could well be an interactive effect when two "difficult" personalities to get together.  I have to say that my first thought when Azoff was hired was that he would campaign heavily for a reunion - that's exactly what he did so successfully with The Eagles.  That would seem like an obvious thing to do, even though your client (Axl) does not want it.  Part of the (unfortunate) role of a business manager is to push their clients into making more money and developing more opportunities -- the reunion is the very obvious money card here, from a manager perspective.  Not saying it's a honorable thing or a "right" thing to do, but managers are not life coaches -- they are out to make a buck.

In any event, I don't see how you can lay the low-ish record sales entirely on Azoff's door.  Seems to me he helped secure a pretty huge no-return pre-order from Best Buy that guaranteed a lot of sales -- and Best Buy ended up eating a lot of these sales, not GnR.  Also, Axl did next to nothing to promote CD (now, maybe Azoff's acts and lack of promotion caused Axl to say "what the fuck!", but that's still self-sabotage in some ways).  Moreover, the long wait led to this record entering a record-buying climate that pretty much doomed big sales from the outset, irrespective of whatever marketing you did.  NOTHING (other than flukes like Susan Boyle) is selling big nowadays: you can move 60,000 units in Week 1 and have a Number 1 record on the charts.  Remember when CDs sold hundreds of thousands (if not well over 1 million) in opening weeks to claim No. 1 position? You can't put the years of delays on Azoff's watch.

So, whatever asshole things Azoff did (and I am inclined to believe that much of what Axl claims is true), they are just part of the story in CD not selling as well as it maybe could have.

The two weakest aspects of the suit are the allegations that Azoff wanted to force a reunion and that he subverted sales of Chinese. What stands out to me as a much stronger case is the mismanagement of the tour and, ultimately, the last minute resignation which left the band in a position to suffer damages. If Axl has documentation that Azoff advised him to stop the Euro dates b/c of the VH deal when in fact he had done little to secure that deal, then I can see an strong argument that management misled the band.

[GypsySoul]

what doesn't make sense is trying to discuss stuff with you, of course you hate robin since he has left, if dj would leave the band for touring with sixx am and GN'R needed to tour and robin joined you'd hate dj and love robin for the fact that he comes back for axl

I never said I hated robin.  I said I hated what he did/the way he left.  If Dj were to leave GNR to be in sixx am, I would hope that he would be upfront with his GNR bandmates and tell them beforehand that is what he chooses for himself and gives GNR enough advanced notice so as not to fuck up any set tour plans or whatever.

my arguement makes sense in the way that getting rid of robin - a long time member - was a first step for breaking apart the band at that time.. by breaking apart the band completely azoff could try and force axl to invite the persons azoff wanted (old line up) or else azoff would "freeze" axl's career, i don't know but that makes sense to me

Again your argument does not make any sense because azoff wasn't around the first time robin quit in '99 to join up with NIN.  And I believe that first time robin did give his GNR bandmates the courtesy of letting them know this in advance of his actually leaving.


P.S.  azoff is a dickhead

[CheapJon]

my arguement makes sense in the way that getting rid of robin - a long time member - was a first step for breaking apart the band at that time.. by breaking apart the band completely azoff could try and force axl to invite the persons azoff wanted (old line up) or else azoff would "freeze" axl's career, i don't know but that makes sense to me

Again your argument does not make any sense because azoff wasn't around the first time robin quit in '99 to join up with NIN. 

 
robin leaving back in 99 have nothing to do with this, now i'm absolutely sure that you're trolling


also when robin joined NIN there wasn't any tour plans for GN'R so he did not fuck up any set tour plans, you're way off

[rds.06]

I think that AssOff dude has messed with the wrong people this time... Now i know better! About the whole marketing stuff, and why the lack of promotion and stuff! What a way to run over people!

Imagine u have built a boat. After 10 years you are nearly ready... then AssOff suddenly show up, and u put your trust in the guy, who turns out to not be the captain u wanted him to be.

Hope he will pay for this..

I'm not so sure that Azoff will lose. He definitely will lose, but going up against possibly the most influential and powerful figure in a multi-million dollar industry is either really brave, or really stupid.
One of them has bitten off more than he can chew, but it remains to be seen which one. It will sure be interesting either way... and if Axl wins, it'll be a major victory, not just for GN'R, but for anyone who calls themselves a music fan.

I would think that they will settle at some point in time, as most lawsuits do.
When you compare complaints, they both look pretty thin and the damages will largely offset.
Azoff may have a hard time proving that he did sufficient work to earn his commissions for the tour, and Axl will have a very hard time (from a legal perspective) showing lost profits in lower record sales based on Azoff not marketing / promoting enough.  Lost profits are hard to prove because you have to eliminate so many other confounding variables, like the record selling climate etc.  You basically have to establish a factual state of affairs that never existed.

So, in spite of whatever bitterness these guys have against each other, I bet at some point the attorneys for each side will basically tell their clients, "look, this is a wash and will cost you a lot of money to litigate."  Azoff will walk away from his commissions and Axl walks away from the lost profits.

Or maybe not .....

This is the most sensible and level headed post in this thread. I agree with this 100%. It?s called a countersuit for a reason. It?s a reaction to an action with the aim of settling.  

[GypsySoul]

my arguement makes sense in the way that getting rid of robin - a long time member - was a first step for breaking apart the band at that time.. by breaking apart the band completely azoff could try and force axl to invite the persons azoff wanted (old line up) or else azoff would "freeze" axl's career, i don't know but that makes sense to me

Again your argument does not make any sense because azoff wasn't around the first time robin quit in '99 to join up with NIN. 

 
robin leaving back in 99 have nothing to do with this, now i'm absolutely sure that you're trolling

You said robin left because of azoff.  I said because of the timing it was highly unlikely that azoff had anything to do with robin leaving either time.  How is that trolling?

[CheapJon]

my arguement makes sense in the way that getting rid of robin - a long time member - was a first step for breaking apart the band at that time.. by breaking apart the band completely azoff could try and force axl to invite the persons azoff wanted (old line up) or else azoff would "freeze" axl's career, i don't know but that makes sense to me

Again your argument does not make any sense because azoff wasn't around the first time robin quit in '99 to join up with NIN. 

 
robin leaving back in 99 have nothing to do with this, now i'm absolutely sure that you're trolling

You said robin left because of azoff.  I said because of the timing it was highly unlikely that azoff had anything to do with robin leaving either time.  How is that trolling?

lol, no i didn't, not anywhere did i say that, stop lying

[GypsySoul]

my arguement makes sense in the way that getting rid of robin - a long time member - was a first step for breaking apart the band at that time.. by breaking apart the band completely azoff could try and force axl to invite the persons azoff wanted (old line up) or else azoff would "freeze" axl's career, i don't know but that makes sense to me

Again your argument does not make any sense because azoff wasn't around the first time robin quit in '99 to join up with NIN. 

 
robin leaving back in 99 have nothing to do with this, now i'm absolutely sure that you're trolling

You said robin left because of azoff.  I said because of the timing it was highly unlikely that azoff had anything to do with robin leaving either time.  How is that trolling?

lol, no i didn't, not anywhere did i say that, stop lying

Yes you did.

I seriously think that Robin... QUIT of GNR, because of this demon

I was thinking about that as well, azoff was pushing axl to get a new guitarist.. first step of breaking up the band

[CheapJon]

my arguement makes sense in the way that getting rid of robin - a long time member - was a first step for breaking apart the band at that time.. by breaking apart the band completely azoff could try and force axl to invite the persons azoff wanted (old line up) or else azoff would "freeze" axl's career, i don't know but that makes sense to me

Again your argument does not make any sense because azoff wasn't around the first time robin quit in '99 to join up with NIN. 

 
robin leaving back in 99 have nothing to do with this, now i'm absolutely sure that you're trolling

You said robin left because of azoff.  I said because of the timing it was highly unlikely that azoff had anything to do with robin leaving either time.  How is that trolling?

lol, no i didn't, not anywhere did i say that, stop lying

Yes you did.

I seriously think that Robin... QUIT of GNR, because of this demon

I was thinking about that as well, azoff was pushing axl to get a new guitarist.. first step of breaking up the band

I figured you'd take what HBK said and say that it was me saying it

Robin joined NIN in april 2008, that doesn't mean he left GN'R at that point. Robin was still considered part of GN'R til the day DJ Ashba took his place or at least til they started looking for others if Robin couldn't make the tour. I think I've been clear when I've said that it's not about when Robin left to do NIN, it's about when he got replaced.

One more time, just for you. I'ts not about Robin leaving, it's about him getting replaced, this making it the first step to break up the band!

My arguement the whole time have been about Azoff's intention of breaking the band apart while it seems that all you're doing is bad talking Robin and Sweet talking/defending DJ when nobody is saying anything negative about him.

It's funny that you say that I don't make sense when it's obvious that you don't even understand what it is that I'm saying

This thread is about Axl suing Azoff for trying to break up the band and reunite with old members among other things, you going after me saying I don't make sense and causing it to go off topic is trolling to me.

[FunkyMonkey]

Back to the lawsuit...

Axl Rose lawsuit highlights Ticketmaster / Live Nation merger concerns

Wed, May 19th 2010

A legal fight between Guns N' Roses singer Axl Rose and Live Nation Entertainment Executive Chairman Irving Azoff escalated this week when Rose sued the powerful artist manager for alleged bullying tactics as part of a plan to try to manipulate Rose into touring again with the original members of his band.

Azoff sued Rose earlier in the year for alleged breach of contract over unpaid commissions for a recent Guns N' Roses tour, and Rose countersued this week bring up the specter of the Department of Justice consent decree that the federal agency negotiated with Ticketmaster and Live Nation when the two merged.

"Ticketmaster recently merged with Live Nation, the largest concert promoter in the United States. Azoff is Chairman of the newly merged entity, Live Nation Entertainment. The U.S. Department of Justice challenged the merger on the grounds that it would create a monopoly ? and violate the federal anti-trust laws ? in the sale of ticketing services to major concert venues in the U.S.," Rose's lawsuit states. "The DOJ allowed the merger to go forward only after the parties entered into a stringent consent decree which precluded the newly merged entity including Azoff from, among others, abusing its position in the market to impede competition."

Azoff created the artist management company Front Line Management, which he sold to Ticketmaster prior to the merger, and he managed Guns N' Roses for a while under that umbrella.

The lawsuit continues, "Azoff now controls the trifecta of (1) artist management, (2) concert and touring promotion and (3) ticket sales. Azoff decides and manipulates what artists he wants to promote through favorable touring deals. He uses his power to punish artists and harm their careers if they do not follow his orders. That is what happened here."

Rose claims Azoff sabotaged tours and record sales; allegedly lied about a tour with Guns N' Roses and Van Halen; and then resigned as manager but expected compensation.

Under the terms of the consent decree, Live Nation Entertainment promised not to "retaliate" against entities that chose to no longer do business with it, but the language in the document primarily centers around venues, promoters and ticketing, which the DOJ believed it had more ability to direct during the merger negotiations.

"Nothing in this Section prevents Defendants [live Nation Entertainment] from bundling their services and products in any combination or from exercising their own business judgment in whether and how to pursue, develop, expand, or compete for any ticketing, venue, promotions, artist management, or any other business, so long as Defendants do so in a manner that is not inconsistent with the provisions of this Section," the consent decree states.

It continues, "Evidence that Defendants do or do not (a) bid for, contract with, win, or retain a venue, artist, or promoter as a client, and/or (b) promote a show or shows in particular buildings or group of buildings (even where similar shows historically have been promoted in those buildings) is not alone sufficient to establish, or create a presumption of, a violation of this Section."

Rose is seeking damages of about $5 million; Azoff's initial lawsuit sought damages of about $2 million.

Rose's attorney, Skip Miller, declined to comment on lawsuit.

Ticket News

[icpillusions]

I see a lot of people saying that Axl is also at fault for not doing interviews and promoting the album.  But isn't it the manager's job to setup interviews and performances? I have little knowledge about the industry so I could be wrong. 

Maybe Axl should've hired AC/DC's manager. Now, that guy knows what promotion is and how to do his job. They are still getting major promotion.

[Voodoochild]

Wonder why such an important news isnt already on Rollingstone.com...

[sky dog]

cause someone knows somebody.........

[nekomex]

why people say that a reunion would bring more money than the new band? i think thats not the case, obviously if you promote the reunion of GNR you will get lots of money for those concerts, but then its done, you wont have another album, no more tours etc. because probably they will end up breaking up again after 2 months, so its kind of stupid to risk the name of GNR again to get a tour instead of traying to create more expectation for a new album and new music by GNR. talking from a buisness position i think its a stupid move to try to get the old members back, the only name that will sell tickets apart from Axl Rose is Slash, but then you risk losing the most important aspect of GNR that its the one that keeps things alive and thats Axl.  but well probably Irving Azoff didnt care for the long run he just wanted the big bucks from a short reunion.

[D]

why people say that a reunion would bring more money than the new band? i think thats not the case, obviously if you promote the reunion of GNR you will get lots of money for those concerts, but then its done, you wont have another album, no more tours etc. because probably they will end up breaking up again after 2 months, so its kind of stupid to risk the name of GNR again to get a tour instead of traying to create more expectation for a new album and new music by GNR. talking from a buisness position i think its a stupid move to try to get the old members back, the only name that will sell tickets apart from Axl Rose is Slash, but then you risk losing the most important aspect of GNR that its the one that keeps things alive and thats Axl.  but well probably Irving Azoff didnt care for the long run he just wanted the big bucks from a short reunion.

think u are under estimating this big time. A Reunion Tour would break records.

[faldor]

why people say that a reunion would bring more money than the new band? i think thats not the case, obviously if you promote the reunion of GNR you will get lots of money for those concerts, but then its done, you wont have another album, no more tours etc. because probably they will end up breaking up again after 2 months, so its kind of stupid to risk the name of GNR again to get a tour instead of traying to create more expectation for a new album and new music by GNR. talking from a buisness position i think its a stupid move to try to get the old members back, the only name that will sell tickets apart from Axl Rose is Slash, but then you risk losing the most important aspect of GNR that its the one that keeps things alive and thats Axl.  but well probably Irving Azoff didnt care for the long run he just wanted the big bucks from a short reunion.

think u are under estimating this big time. A Reunion Tour would break records.

Only if it was done under the right circumstances.  Not if it was forced.  Plus I don't think a reunion would be nearly as big as some people think.  A lot of time has passed since AFD and UYI.