NFL 2010 Season

[sandman]

Vick is a very good pocket passer. his reads were above average this year. i saw alot of highlights on NFL matchup and local coverage here and he is a pass-first QB. the eagles coaches did a phenominal job with him the last 2 seasons.

the eagles OL is weak, yet vick frequently hung in there, made the throws, and took the hits. most great QBs have to do that 2 or 3 times a game. Vick had to do it about a third of the time he was in the pocket.

Vick is one of the top QBs in the league. clearly brady is the best, with Manning and Brees up there as well. I'd porbably put vick right behind those guys. No way in hell i would trade vick for Rivers, Rogers, Ryan or any other of the 2nd tier QBs.

and no one in the league - not Brady, Manning, or Brees - could have taken this eagles team as far as Vick did. he has unique talents the others do not have, and those talents were required to have success on this eagles team.

one other thing....Vick is a very good leader. he takes the blame after each loss, assesses what he could have done better, and praises his teammates and coaches. the players LOVE hime.

[D]

Excellent post Sandman! Just excellent.

Rivers has done what? Rodgers has done what?


Rivers QB's one of the most underachieving teams in NFL history.

[Bodhi]

Excellent post Sandman! Just excellent.

Rivers has done what? Rodgers has done what?


Rivers QB's one of the most underachieving teams in NFL history.

man everyone is on Vick's dick lately, its hilarious.  What has Rodgers done? Didnt Rodgers just throw 3 tds and knock Vick out of the playoffs?  What has Rivers done?  Hes won more playoff games than Vick, even with that defective head coach they have out there.  Vick is a top 10 quarterback, i will give him that.  But I would take, Brady, Manning, Brees, Roethlisberger(2 rings remember?) Eli Manning,Rodgers, Rivers Matt Ryan,  and then there are a few toss ups who I think are tied  or slightly below Vick.  Vicks stats are impressive sometimes, and that is great if you are playing a game of Madden, but in the real world, QB's like Vick do NOT WIN when it COUNTS period.  They never have..ask Randall Cunningham.  That shit does not work in the playoffs, give me an example of it and then we can have a discussion about hit.  Vick made a horrible decision and cost the Eagles their season. 

[sandman]

bodhi - you have not watched many eagles games this year. because if you did you would not be saying "QBs like vick." because the only QB you can compare him to is steve young. and young played on an all-star team with one of the greatest coaches of all time.

and you are putting Eli is the top 10??? i laughed out loud when i read that. take him away and you have vick as the 8th best in the league. we're not exactly far off in our opinion of him.

i used to hate Vick and i know he was over-hyped with the falcons. he was not a very good pocket passer back then. he is a very good one now. there are 7-10 or so QBs that are better than vick as pure QBs (i.e. pure pocket passing). but the other things he brings, which are extremely dangerous, make him a better overall QB.

he single-handedly stole the giants playoff spot in a matter of minutes. and despite the eagles being grossly outplayed by GB, he brought us within 27 yards of winning the game. if it weren't for a number of dropped passes, missed FGs, celek stepping out of bounds on 2-point conversion,  major penalties, etc., he probably wins the game for us.

[Bodhi]

As an Eagle fan ,of course you would laugh at Eli, and I am no Eli or Giants fan, but facts are facts.  Eli Manning has a Super Bowl MVP award and made arguably the greatest play in the history of the Super Bowl in the biggest upset of all time.  In the NFL, only one thing matters, championships.  Vick can have all the highlights on sportcenter he wants, Manning is a champion.  And you are not really going to compare Vick's throwing ability to that of Steve Youngs after playing 3/4 of a season are you?  Is Vick a better passer than he used to be? Sure.  But he still made an awful pass and threw the teams season away with a very poor decision, the difference between great Qb's and good ones.  The Eagles will never win a championship with Michael Vick, because of his poor decision making AND the fact that he puts himself in harms way too often to be reliable for a 16 game season.  Vicks heroics in the Giants game really did add up to much did it?  They are home now too.

[D]

Eli Manning sucks


Rodgers inherited an NFC CHampionship team. took him 3 years to FINALLY win a playoff game. Rodgers has that choke gene.

Look at the Philly game. his fumble put Philly back in it. his fumble lost them the Arizona game last year.

Vick has no offensive line. his first full season starting Out of Prison and a 2 year layoff.

Give Vick another offseason and an upgraded O line. Vick still went 8-3 as a starting QB. had ONE bad game out of 11.


also look, Im not gonna hate on Brady or Big Ben etc... however, they do play for immaculate organizations. Great defenses, systems etc.

Does Brady or anybody else win a SB with Vick's Atlanta teams or this year's Philly team? no way

[sandman]

As an Eagle fan ,of course you would laugh at Eli, and I am no Eli or Giants fan, but facts are facts.  Eli Manning has a Super Bowl MVP award and made arguably the greatest play in the history of the Super Bowl in the biggest upset of all time.  In the NFL, only one thing matters, championships.  Vick can have all the highlights on sportcenter he wants, Manning is a champion.  And you are not really going to compare Vick's throwing ability to that of Steve Youngs after playing 3/4 of a season are you?  Is Vick a better passer than he used to be? Sure.  But he still made an awful pass and threw the teams season away with a very poor decision, the difference between great Qb's and good ones.  The Eagles will never win a championship with Michael Vick, because of his poor decision making AND the fact that he puts himself in harms way too often to be reliable for a 16 game season.  Vicks heroics in the Giants game really did add up to much did it?  They are home now too.

just ask giants what they think of Eli. he drives them nuts.

you're making the simplest argument possible. the old "you are only great if you win a championship" argument. if you want to dumb things down to that level, that's fine. i think it's more fun to try to guess who has the potential to win a SB. Peyton Manning "choked" in the playoffs for years. people loved to criticize him and say he would "never win a championship." people would bet against him every year. but he eventually got it done.

you're basically saying that any QB that throws an INT in the playoffs to end the game will never win a title. that just doesn't seem like a good argument to me, considering the history of the greats like Favre, Manning, Elway, and others.

[Axl4Prez2004]

Ok, how well did tom Brady play 2nd half against Jets first time, or Miami where special teams won, or against Cleveland? he even had a bad game against SD as well.

all QB's are due a stinker here and there.So Vick plays ONE bad game, and its blown out of proportion like he now was overrated or figured out, or not gonna be as good. Vick also got injured in the first quarter of that game, and anyone who knows Vick, could tell he wasn't moving like Vick thanks to his quad injury.

I'd like to have seen Brady or anybody else do any better with that blitz in his face within 2 seconds.

Big overlooked stat. Brady had 6 games with under 200 yards passing.

D, Come on man, I've admitted to my weak arguments in the past (there have been plenty!)  You are sooo off on this Brady thing.
Brady had 6 games with under 200 yards passing...so what? 
Look at the games you mentioned. 
Miami.  a 41-14 win.  He was 19/24 (over 79% completions) with 1 td and 0 picks, and 153 yards passing.
Miami Part 2.  a 38-7 win.  10/16 with 2 td, 0 picks, and 199 yards.
Cleveland: yes, a loss. 34-14.  but, 19/36, 224 yards, 2 td's, 0 picks.
Jets, the other loss.  correct, 2 td, 2 picks, and 248 yards passing.
SD, a 23-20 Pats win.  Brady throws 1td, 0 picks, and 159 yards.  (btw, SD's the #1 defense against the pass)

D, 16 games.  36 touchdown passes...4 interceptions. 
Team record:  14-2
518 points scored. 
Over 32 points per game.

I am going to enjoy watching Rex Ryan get blown the fuck out this weekend.
That said, the AFC Championship game should be a classic.  NE vs. most likely Pitt.  Awesome shit!


Bodhi makes a good argument...okay, except for the Eli part!  Eli is slightly superior to Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson in my opinion.  All 3 are Super Bowl Champs...and Dan Marino is ringless.  Every now and then a dominant defense allows an average qb to bask in Super Bowl glory.

Vick>Eli.
Brady, Peyton, Brees, Ben, Rodgers, Rivers all > Vick.
Vick> Ryan.  I'm not sold on Ryan.
Hey, 7th out of 32 aint bad! 
 

[D]

well hey 7th is great. u guys acting like he sucks though.
Point with Brady is, he can throw for under 200 and the rest of his team can pick it up and win games. If Vick isnt absolutely spectacular, Eagles win 6 games if that.

He did better his first season in PHilly than Rodgers did in GBtaking over an NFC Championship team.

so u gotta factor that also, this is Vick's first year starting in this system.

Vick against Minnesota, since u wanna point out Brady's stats in losses:

Vick 25-43 263 1td 1 pick  8 carries 63 yards 1TD

Vick's worst game statistically was the Dallas victory where he went 16-26 270  2tds 2 picks  only 16 yards rushing.

 u guys arent taking into account Philly's terrible D etc.

Vick has played NO bad games this entire year.

Find one.  Here is the link: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=2549
I think people can't separate Atlanta Vick from what he did this season. This isn't career achievement award. We are talking this season right now.

I'd take Vick over everyone but Brady,Manning and maybe Drew Brees. Rodgers is great also but its close. U can actually keep Philip Rivers.

Also Big Ben is clutch but come on, imagine vick with that Steeler D and Offensive Line.

[Axl4Prez2004]

well hey 7th is great. u guys acting like he sucks though.

I never said he sucks.  In fact, I gave a pretty darn specific rating, 7th. 

He did better his first season in PHilly than Rodgers did in GBtaking over an NFC Championship team.

You're comparing Rodgers' first full season as a starter with Vick's 2nd season with his 2nd team making it his 8th season in the NFL...overall his 5th "full" season?  Sounds fair.   

u guys arent taking into account Philly's terrible D etc.

Terrible defense usually bolsters a quarterbacks numbers D.  If you are up 28-7, there's not a big need to throw, throw, throw.  Ya wanna chew up the clock.
If you are down 28-7, the qb is throwing.

Vick has played NO bad games this entire year.

He had a very good season.  I'm not arguing he hasn't.  This reminds me a little of Brett in '09.  Incredible season, and a pick to lose it at the end.  Ugh.


I'd take Vick over everyone but Brady,Manning and maybe Drew Brees. Rodgers is great also but its close. U can actually keep Philip Rivers.

I've never liked Rivers' herky-jerky throwing style, but holy crap!  Look what he did with absolute refuse as wideouts and an injured/invisible Antonio Gates?  This season made me a Rivers believer.  With real weapons next season, the guy should help SD take back the West.

Also Big Ben is clutch but come on, imagine vick with that Steeler D and Offensive Line.

I don't know how much Steelers ball u get to watch, but their o-line's been banged up.  Big Ben is effing solid back there.  He absorbs a lot of hits.  He's so effing big though, and deceptively agile.  I once saw him positioned in the very back of a bar bathroom, this chick bolted away...had a good 15' head start on him, and wouldn't ya know it!  He made it to the door before the bodyguard even had to stop her!  The guy can move!   
But seriously, remember that play against the Ravens where he held off Suggs with a stiff-arm that allowed him to throw a ball away left-handed?  Sure he's a goon, but on the field he's a winner.

[gilee7]

He's so effing big though, and deceptively agile.  I once saw him positioned in the very back of a bar bathroom, this chick bolted away...had a good 15' head start on him, and wouldn't ya know it!  He made it to the door before the bodyguard even had to stop her!  The guy can move!   

That made me laugh pretty hard.

I think Axl4Prez's QB rankings are pretty spot on. Vick at seventh is fair. And I'd actually put Eli at eighth, whom everyone likes to shit on.

What's everyone's predictions for this weekend?

[Axl4Prez2004]

Thanks Gilee.  I wish I lives in the '50's when I could have used "inappropriate humor" everywhere and not have to worry about being sued! 

Predictions!

Faldor, cover your ears, this may be a very bad omen for your boys...

...my stone cold lock of the week is Patriots BIG!  Take the -8.5 and the over!!!

Steelers in a tight one.
Packers
Sea-effing-Hawks!!!

The AFC games are the games of the week.  Jets-Pats will be interesting, but that Ravens-Steelers game is going to be off the hook!!!

[Bodhi]

As an Eagle fan ,of course you would laugh at Eli, and I am no Eli or Giants fan, but facts are facts.  Eli Manning has a Super Bowl MVP award and made arguably the greatest play in the history of the Super Bowl in the biggest upset of all time.  In the NFL, only one thing matters, championships.  Vick can have all the highlights on sportcenter he wants, Manning is a champion.  And you are not really going to compare Vick's throwing ability to that of Steve Youngs after playing 3/4 of a season are you?  Is Vick a better passer than he used to be? Sure.  But he still made an awful pass and threw the teams season away with a very poor decision, the difference between great Qb's and good ones.  The Eagles will never win a championship with Michael Vick, because of his poor decision making AND the fact that he puts himself in harms way too often to be reliable for a 16 game season.  Vicks heroics in the Giants game really did add up to much did it?  They are home now too.

just ask giants what they think of Eli. he drives them nuts.

you're making the simplest argument possible. the old "you are only great if you win a championship" argument. if you want to dumb things down to that level, that's fine. i think it's more fun to try to guess who has the potential to win a SB. Peyton Manning "choked" in the playoffs for years. people loved to criticize him and say he would "never win a championship." people would bet against him every year. but he eventually got it done.

you're basically saying that any QB that throws an INT in the playoffs to end the game will never win a title. that just doesn't seem like a good argument to me, considering the history of the greats like Favre, Manning, Elway, and others.

I never said ANY QB to throw a pick in a big spot will never win a title, I said Vick, because he is not a good enough passer to win a title.  And Championships are ALL that matters when you are talking about GREAT Quarterbacks, because the quarterback is the leader of the team.  There have been plenty of great NFL players to never win a title, but how many great quarterbacks?  Marino, Kelly and Tarkenton, thats about it.  But at least those players GOT to a Super Bowl.  Getting to the Super Bowl does help solidify greatness.  But if you are a quarterback and never lead your team to the big game, how can you be great?

[Bodhi]

Bodhi makes a good argument...okay, except for the Eli part!  Eli is slightly superior to Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson in my opinion.  All 3 are Super Bowl Champs...and Dan Marino is ringless.  Every now and then a dominant defense allows an average qb to bask in Super Bowl glory.


 

Come on, Dilfer and Johnson did not win those Super Bowls for their team, Eli Manning did.  He was the MVP of that game.  As great as the Giants D played, Tom Brady still threw the potential Super Bowl winning TD pass late in the forth, it was Eli who drove them down the field in probably the greatest drive in Super Bowl history(considering the circumstances, playing a undefeated team etc..)

I am no Manning fan, he has his faults, but he does not suck.

[Axl4Prez2004]

Bodhi makes a good argument...okay, except for the Eli part!  Eli is slightly superior to Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson in my opinion.  All 3 are Super Bowl Champs...and Dan Marino is ringless.  Every now and then a dominant defense allows an average qb to bask in Super Bowl glory.


 

Come on, Dilfer and Johnson did not win those Super Bowls for their team, Eli Manning did.  He was the MVP of that game.  As great as the Giants D played, Tom Brady still threw the potential Super Bowl winning TD pass late in the forth, it was Eli who drove them down the field in probably the greatest drive in Super Bowl history(considering the circumstances, playing a undefeated team etc..)

I am no Manning fan, he has his faults, but he does not suck.

Hey Bodhi, I agree, Eli doesn't suck...he's an above average quarterback.
...and no way on earth Eli won that game.  The Giants Defensive Line was the true MVP of that game.  In my opinion of course.

btw, after a quick scan of the 32 teams, I've got Eli as #9.  Vick and Ryan at 7 and 8 respectively.  That's definitely not "suck" worthy. 
 

[D]

Thing u guys are overlooking is Vick's running ability and yardage.

the fact he had a 100 passer rating, AND can still run.... he is the dual threat nobody else is.

I think vick isn't getting enough credit for what he did with a pretty average Eagles team that got decimated with injuries on defense.

Don't forget, Steelers went 3-1 without Ben's ass. Eagles 2-4 without Vick

My unbiased top 10 would be:This isn't of all time just RIGHT NOW. don't give a shit what they did over careers.
1.Tom Brady
2.Peyton Manning
3.Drew Brees
4.Mike Vick
5.Ben Roethlisberger
6.Aaron Rodgers
7.Philip Rivers
8. Matt Ryan
9.Joe Flacco
10.Eli Manning

[sandman]

so are rivers, ryan, and rogers not great because they have not made the SB? was brees not great before last year?

and two names for you....Warren Moon and Dan Fouts. HOF QBs and neither made it to the SB.

again, we are all in agreement that Vick is one of the best QBs in the league (somewhere between 4th and 8th...not much disagreement there). the only thing i disagreed with anyone was that Vick is far more of a QB now than he was with Atlanta. he's very accurate, he reads defenses, has one of the strgonest arms in the league, threw very few INTs, and he is a "pass-first" QB. his QB rating for the full season supports all of this. Add in the fact that he is one of the all-time greatest escape artists and runners at the position, and you have a great QB.

i also think he is a very good leader and tough enough mentally to lead a team through a long playoff run. if the eagles improve their team via draft and FA, they will be one of the favorites in the NFC again.   

[D]

Exactly, just remember that 60 yard effortless bomb to Jackson on the first play in the Washington game.

Another thing that hurts Vick is not having a big WR. If he had a big physical WR to go over the middle, he'd be able to slant teams to death off that corner/nickel blitz.

[Axl4Prez2004]

Exactly, just remember that 60 yard effortless bomb to Jackson on the first play in the Washington game.

Another thing that hurts Vick is not having a big WR. If he had a big physical WR to go over the middle, he'd be able to slant teams to death off that corner/nickel blitz.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't slants a little tougher to throw when you are an undersized quarterback?  Kinda tough to zip it over a 6' 5" d-lineman when you're about 5' 11" tall
short.

btw, honestly, if he could stay healthy, I'd throw Stafford in there over Eli (if he was healthy).  The guy is talented as hell.  If he can get healthy and stay healthy, there's a LOT of potential there.

Sandman, what about that report from Sal Paolantonio a few weeks ago that had analysts ripping Vick's failure to read blitzes?  Honestly, I wish the guy well.  He's set.  He's going to be the Eagles starter for several more seasons (if he stays healthy).
The Eagles are blowing smoke saying they want to keep him and Kolb...I believe they want to, but there is no way in hell they can afford both in this NFL market.  Kolb will be a hot commodity, and the Eagles are just trying to drive the price up. 
The foreskins are doing the same thing with McNabb knowing full well they have no intention of keeping him in Washington.  They'll eventually have to buckle and deal McNabb for less than what they gave up to get him.   Hopefully, Donovan and Fat Albert both go to Minnesota (or L.A., wherever my Vikes end up)

[faldor]

I was away for work the last couple of days and had to hear how much Tom Brady and the Patriots suck and how the Jets will win.  I stayed quiet for the most part, it wasn't a battle worth fighting because the points being brought forth were so ridiculous.  If the Jets can somehow harass Brady and force some turnovers, control the ball and time of possession, protect the ball, and play a "perfect game" I think they can win.  I just don't see that happening.  This is a Patriots team who has ONE turnover since the first week of November.  And as good a win as the Jets had against the Colts, the Patriots are a far better team than the Colts.  I would think the Jets will have to score more than 17 points to win this week, as the Pats have scored 31+ points in their last 8 games.  The one thing the Jets may have going for them, and this may sound a little strange, is experience.  This Jets team has won 3 big playoff games over the last 2 years.  The Patriots have ONE blowout home loss to the Ravens.  I do think this is a far different team than last years, but this will be the first rodeo for a lot of guys on New England, so there's no telling how they'll react.

About Vick.  The guy had a great year.  He made great strides, he reminded me of the Michael Vick in his Virginia Tech days.  He was dominant.  BUT, it was ONE year.  AND, he and the Eagles sputtered down the stretch.  That can't be denied.  Sure he did his best to keep an average Philly team afloat, and maybe that caught up with him in the end.  But you can't just say that he was this MVP candidate who had 10 TD's and 0 INT's and was 5-1 as a starter as he was setting the NFL ablaze without mentioning that he finished the season 3-3 with 11 TD's and 7 INT's.  Not to say he was BAD in those final 6 games, but he certainly wasn't as good as he was earlier in the season.