2010 Baseball Season/Off-Season Discussion

[tim_m]

They may end up having to seriously revisit Joba starting. I still think he can be an effective starter. The guy has 4 good pitches. Having him as just a one inning guy with that many plus pitches is a waste. They should give him another chance but they can't dick him around this time. No more innings limit, no skipping his starts just let him go and see what he can do. The guy is still only 24-25 yrs old and still learning. Just let him learn.

[faldor]

Yeah, I agree they have messed with Joba too much early in his career.  It really has stunted his growth.  He was pretty much unhittable as a setup man until the gnats got to him in Cleveland.  Then they tried to change him back to a starter and the merry go round began.  He hasn't been the same since.  He doesn't throw as hard as he used to, he's not nearly as intimidating.  I mean, he was looking like future replacement for Rivera.  Now you certainly wouldn't trust him in that role.

[pilferk]

Yeah, I agree they have messed with Joba too much early in his career.  It really has stunted his growth.  He was pretty much unhittable as a setup man until the gnats got to him in Cleveland.  Then they tried to change him back to a starter and the merry go round began.  He hasn't been the same since.  He doesn't throw as hard as he used to, he's not nearly as intimidating.  I mean, he was looking like future replacement for Rivera.  Now you certainly wouldn't trust him in that role.

SOME of it has been what the Yanks have done to him.

A LOT of it is the shoulder injury he sustained that day pitching against the Rangers.  Since then, his consistent velocity has dropped.  He was pitching in the upper 90's.  Now, he's usually living in the mid to low 90's.  Sure, he has occasional days where he still dials it up to 97/98..but it's not consistent.

Since that injury, he's not had the velocity or command he had when he came up.  He's going to have to learn to live with that, or he's going to have to figure out how to get back to where he was.  So far, he hasn't done either.

[faldor]

Sox made yet another move to improve their bullpen.

Wheeler thrilled to be a Red Sox
Posted by Nick Cafardo, Globe Staff December 18, 2010 12:23 PM

Dan Wheeler graduated from Pilgrim High in Warwick, R.I. and still has his entire family there. So you can guess that signing on with the Red Sox yesterday was kind of special.

"Over the years deep down there has always been a part of me that wanted to play for them," Wheeler said. "They were my team growing up and you just never know in this game how things are going to turn out. But this one turned out very well."

Wheeler, passed his physical and agreed to a one-year deal worth $3 million that includes a vesting option for 2012 if he makes 65 appearances. If he gets up to 75 games he'll earn another $250,000.

Wheeler will likely be Boston's top middle reliever who will likely be used ahead of the seventh-inning Bobby Jenks, but could be used later depending upon the situation. Tampa Bay had hoped to keep Wheeler.

'We had some talks (with Tampa Bay) but in the end I felt this was the best situation for me," Wheeler said. "I'm very impressed with all the moves we've been able to make and it's a team that looks to be very solid and exciting and just to be a part of that is exciting for me.

"I loved my years in Tampa Bay. We had a fun, talented team. We had a great year last year and really enjoyed every minute of it. But I'm a Red Sox now."

Wheeler found it amusing that he would be teammates with Carl Crawford again.

"The Red Sox are in for a special treat," Wheeler said. "This is a special player. I know Red Sox fans have seen him a lot over the years but when you watch him day-in-and day out you're going to see things that will amaze you. For me as a pitcher, I'm telling you, it's great to see him out there in left field. He's a highlight film on just about every play."

The Red Sox bullpen is beginning to take shape with the signing of Dan Wheeler to a one-year deal plus an option.

Wheeler, 33, has also pitched for the Astros and New York Mets in his 11-year career but was drafted in the 34th round by Tampa Bay. He joins a new cast that includes Bobby Jenks, who will undergo a physical at Massachusetts General Hospital on Monday after he agreed to a two-year deal worth $12 million. Jonathan Papelbon is still slated to be the closer with Daniel Bard in the eighth inning and Jenks used mostly in the seventh but also in the eighth when Bard needs a day off. The Red Sox had also signed righthander Matt Albers and also have Tim Wakefield in the bullpen.

If the team is unsuccessful is signing a lefty reliever don't be surprised to see youngster Felix Doubront in that role, but the Red Sox would rather start Doubront at Triple-A and continue his development as a starting pitcher. The Sox may also lean on Rich Hill, who has become effective vs, lefties with his great curveball and the Sox may try Andrew Miller in the role if they can harnass his command.

The Red Sox have made an offer to Brian Fuentes and have also explored rehab candidate Ron Mahay.

Wheeler has had very good WHIP's the last three seasons. That's walks and hits per inning. Last season Wheeler's WHIP was 1.075 and in the two previous years 0.995 and 0.87, both of which are outstanding.

"He's a strike-thrower," said one National League scout. "He can throw five different pitches. His split was very effective against lefthanded hitters last year and he can throw to righthanders effectively. He's got a natural cutter. He can get himself in trouble if he's up in the zone, but he's not afraid to pound hitters inside. He's a natural leader, who really knows that division. Battle tested. I'm sure he'll be a popular kid on that team and in that bullpen."

Wheeler made 64 appearances for the Rays last season and has always been a reliable member of Joe Maddon's staff.

[faldor]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5935586

Sources: Zack Greinke dealt to Brewers

Former Cy Young Award winner Zack Greinke has been traded to the Milwaukee Brewers, sources told ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney on Sunday morning.

In the deal, the Royals are reportedly acquiring Brewers outfielder Lorenzo Cain, shortstop Alcides Escobar and pitching prospects Jake Odorizzi and Jeremy Jeffress for the 27-year-old Greinke, 10-14 with a 4.17 ERA in 2010 after winning the 2009 Cy Young.

Royals general manager Dayton Moore had been actively shopping for major league-ready, up-the-middle position players for Greinke.

The Brewers were expected to receive another major leaguer in the deal. Jim Breem of the blog "Bernie's Crew" reported that player to be shortstop Yuniesky Betancourt.

Greinke joins a Brewers rotation that includes Yovani Gallardo, Randy Wolf, Chris Narveson and Shaun Marcum, acquired this month in a trade with the Toronto Blue Jays.

Greinke, 60-67 with a 3.82 ERA in six full seasons with the Royals after being drafted No. 6 overall in 2002, missed nearly all of 2006 because of an anxiety disorder, and that was partly shaping the possible market value for him. The Yankees, for example, were likely to pass on any run at Greinke given the questions about how he would adapt to the high pressure of New York.

The Texas Rangers made what they considered to be an aggressive offer for Greinke during the winter meetings earlier this month, only to learn that they were far short of Kansas City's expectations.

And the Washington Nationals were told that in order to get Greinke they would have to surrender Jordan Zimmermann, Drew Storen and second baseman Danny Espinosa.

Information from ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney and ESPN.com's Jerry Crasnick was used in this report.

[sandman]

i'm assuming the yankees didn't really want Greinke. i thought it would have been worth taking a chance on him.

i keep waiting to hear the yankees are putting a package together for Felix. this makes me believe that even more.

[pilferk]

i'm assuming the yankees didn't really want Greinke. i thought it would have been worth taking a chance on him.

i keep waiting to hear the yankees are putting a package together for Felix. this makes me believe that even more.

Royals came to the Yanks FIRST and said they would let Greinke go for Montero and Nunez.  That, FYI, is a ridiculously reasonable price, considering.  The Yanks told the Royals they weren't interested.  Apparently there is a LOT of concern in the Yanks FO about Greinke pitching in the pressure cooker of NYC...and they passed.  I'm not sure I disagree with them...they have one "fragile" head case in AJ.  Talented or not, I'm not sure adding another would be a great idea.

Seattle says Felix is not for sale.  They've been pretty adamant, and given his contract duration and $$..they'd be sort of crazy to let him go.  Now, I guess you can say everyone has a price...and if the Yanks offered something crazy for him, they'd bite.  But I don't think the Yanks are going to do it, and they're definitely not going to get him for the price they could have gotten Grienke for.

I think the Yanks are going to flunk, abysmally, the "hot stove" season.  They're showing every sign of going into 2011 with CC, AJ, Phil, reportedly Andy (though we'll see...nothing is signed yet) and Nova as their rotation.  Scary, if you're a Yanks fan and pretty darn encouraging if you're a fan of anyone else.  If they do that, they've basically necessitated making some sort of move by the trade deadline.  Not a great position to find yourself in.

http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/news/story?id=5938789

I disagree, heartily, with Cashman on this one.  You only "have until July" assuming you're in contention for a playoff spot.  Given the Sox improvement (and, you assume, an increased ability to stay healthy), the fact Toronto has gotten better, and so have some other AL teams, I'm not sure that's a safe bet.  If the Yanks go into July looking at a 7 or 8 game wild card deficit (which, I agree, is a doomsday scenario), then Cashman's likely going to be too late in acquiring that arm.

IF Andy comes back..it's not too bad. All signs last week pointed to him returning.  But if he decides to retire....the Yanks rotation is going to be VERY rough.  Rough enough that the doomsday scenario above doesn't seem quite so far fetched.

[Falcon]

The Yanks have had an interesting off season for sure..

Unfortunately they seem to be much closer to "really old and needing a roster turnover than "one or 2 guys" from contending.

From a point of view with no emotional ties, I hope they get it figured out one way or the other - baseball's just better with the Yanks being in the mix..

[pilferk]

The Yanks have had an interesting off season for sure..

Unfortunately they seem to be much closer to "really old and needing a roster turnover than "one or 2 guys" from contending.

From a point of view with no emotional ties, I hope they get it figured out one way or the other - baseball's just better with the Yanks being in the mix..

If they'd gotten Lee, they'd be in good shape this season, IMHO (even if Andy decided to retire).

Cano is young, Gardner is young, Tex is pretty young, Granderson is relatively young, Swish is in his prime...really, the only age in the position players is Jorge (and they've got depth in the farm system at catcher), A-rod (who has an albatross of a contract, but would make a good DH into the latter half) and Jeter (who could be an effective right fielder in the last couple of years of his new deal). 

They've got plenty of young arms in the bullpen, who have proven to be pretty effective.

Their rotation is going to get old, quick, over the next couple of seasons...and there isn't a whole lot of decent stuff in the FA market until 2012...and that's a LONG time off.  They've got young arms, coming up, in the farm system who may (or may not) be effective starters.  If they give ONE of them a chance, every year, to hold down the 5th spot in the rotation....The Yanks are OK.  The minute the Yanks have to give 2 of them slots...they're in trouble.  It'll be Hughes and Kennedy all over again....

[AxlsMainMan]

Will Manny Ramirez play ball in 2011?
By 'Duk

Of all the aging batsmen that still need to find homes for 2011, Manny Ramirez ranks as the one whose search will be the most captivating.

Don't get me wrong: It'll be interesting to see which AL teams land the old guys like Jim Thome, Johnny Damon, Jason Giambi or Vladimir Guerrero.

Just not as much as the shingle hung this offseason by a guy who 1) definitely won't be welcomed back by his last team (the Chicago White Sox), 2) will probably have to take baseball's biggest paycut and 3) carries the most risk and reward of the bunch. He could be a clubhouse-crushing albatross, just as easily as he could have a big comeback season full of doubles and a healthy OBP.

When and where he signs is still anybody's guess, but it's not hard to eliminate a lot of possibilities.

The only National League team crazy enough to park him in the outfield would probably be the St. Louis Cardinals. But they already nabbed Lance Berkman, so let's take the 16 teams of the Senior Circuit out of the mix.

The White Sox don't want or need him, nor do the Boston Red Sox, Detroit Tigers or Kansas City Royals. ESPN's Buster Olney reports that the New York Yankees' interest was wildly exaggerated and Travis Hafner's hefty salary is blocking the pipe dream of a reunion with the Cleveland Indians.

The Oakland Athletics just brought Hideki Matsui(notes) aboard while teams like the Toronto Blue Jays (Edwin Encarnacion) and Seattle Mariners (Jack Cust) have opted for hitters with less baggage (and power). 

Tim Dierkes of MLB Trade Rumors suggests that the Tampa Bay Rays, Baltimore Orioles, Los Angeles Angels, Texas Rangers and Minnesota Twins are the possible destinations for Ramirez.

But if you figure that the Twins could re-sign Thome and the Rangers could bring back Guerrero, that eliminates another two teams.

And the Angels already have enough immobile types and need a place to stick Bobby Abreu or Juan Rivera now that Peter Bourjos is getting playing time in the outfield. So there goes another.

That leaves the Rays and Orioles to flip a coin to see who gets the privilege of taking the $5 million or so gamble on a space case who will turn 39 in May. It's not the worst risk in the world given the potential reward, but you already get the feeling that we're going to watch a huge game of hot potato with Scott Boras and teams hungry for offense in the weeks ahead.

Indeed, it's not too hard to imagine a scenario in which Manny's weighing a late February choice between swallowing his pride and playing for a small, incentive-heavy contract and starting the 2011 season on the sidelines.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/BLS-poll-Will-Manny-Ramirez-play-ball-in-2011-?urn=mlb-301159

[Falcon]

Congrats to Blyleven and Alomar on The Hall inductions, well deserved for both.

Nice to see the Rangers getting in on the free agency idiocy, 96 million for Beltre over 6? Insanity...

Looks like the Yanks maybe in on Soriano, that would make for one nast end of the bullpen.

No too long til pitchers and catchers report fellas..

[faldor]

Looks like the Yanks maybe in on Soriano, that would make for one nast end of the bullpen.

I would think so too, but according to Buster Olney.

Buster_ESPN Buster Olney   
Heard this: As of 6 p.m. on Thursday, the Yankees are not interested in Rafael Soriano. They've seen a lot of $ squandered on set-up men.

Buster_ESPN Buster Olney   
Soriano would have to make himself absurdly cheap -- on a very short-term (1-year or 2-year deal) -- before NYY would even consider him.

Of course that could just be mindless chatter to throw people off.  The move would certainly make sense to me.  Since when do the Yankees care about squandering money on the most attractive reliever in the FA market?  I heard Soriano was a fallback plan if they couldn't get Pettitte to come back.  So maybe they think Andy will come back.  Again though, why not get them both?

From the Post on Andy.

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/yankees/andy_not_retired_p0TD9UO4iH6uUuO27kAfAN

DEER PARK, Texas -- Tanned and rested, Andy Pettitte stood on his front porch last night and answered the question on every Yankees fan's mind: Do you know if you're going to pitch this year?

"I don't," Pettitte told The Post fresh off his two-week vacation in Hawaii. "I'm just chilling out, hanging. I'm relaxing. If I had something, y'all would know. If I knew exactly what I was doing, y'all would know."

The 38-year-old pitcher said he is unsure when he will reach a decision. The veteran left-hander is the biggest story in the New York baseball world, but the always-humble Pettitte does not see it that way. He has maintained a low profile this winter, and was annoyed when a reporter showed up on his doorstep.
 

"I don't want to be a story," he said. "I really don't want [the Yankees] to worry about me. I just want them to go, just go on."

Pettitte told Yankees general manager Brian Cashman as much last month when he called him before the Winter Meetings to let him know that the Yankees should go about their business as if he won't be part of the 2011 team.

With spring training a little more than five weeks away, that leaves the Yankees with a rotation of CC Sabathia, Phil Hughes, A.J. Burnett and some question marks.

Pettitte looked to be in good shape, though he laughed when told he looked ready to pitch.

"I haven't done much," he said. "That's for sure. I was over in Hawaii, so I'm tan. My daughter keeps telling me I'm getting more gray hairs every day, so I don't know about that."

Pettitte would not say if he is currently leaning toward retirement, but that has been the feeling around the Yankees most of the winter. Mark Teixeira said he felt Pettitte was leaning that way last week. When it hit the newspapers, he called Pettitte to apologize, but Pettitte was in Hawaii and had not even seen the stories. Pettitte said he and Teixeira last spoke in the middle of December.

Pettitte chalked it up to things getting blown out of proportion in New York, a reason he is reluctant to discuss his decision with any depth.

"Everybody's so emotional up there," he said. "I feel like if you say anything, everyone reacts. I know that's what you're trying to do, but it's just like you see where I'm at down here."

With that, he pointed to his casual attire of black and white, checkered pajama pants and a long-sleeve, black T-shirt.

After talking for five minutes on his front porch, Pettitte started to head inside. As he got to his front door, I said, "See you in a few weeks in Tampa?"

"I don't know about that," Pettitte said with a big smile.

The wait continues.

brian.costello@nypost.com

[faldor]

http://blogs.dailyherald.com/node/5052

Cubs to send 4 prospects for Garza
Posted by Bruce on Fri, 01/07/2011 - 09:55

Would you give up Chris Archer, Hak-Ju Lee, Brandon Guyer and Robinson Chirinos to get Matt Garza. The Cubs are getting set to do just that, I've learned this morning. An announcement is not imminent for several reasons (physical exams, for one), but that is the package (based on several conversations with reliable sources I've had last night and early this morning) the Cubs will to give up to get what they believe is a No. 1 or No. 2 pitcher. I've also learned there may be additional parts to the deal for each team.

Although reports earlier this week of an imminent trade might have been premature, there's no doubt Cubs GM Jim Hendry is working feverishly to get Garza. This morning, we'll take a look at some of the factors in such a trade, if it takes place in the next few days or not until later or not at all.

Whether you like or don't like Hendry, one of his traits is dogged persistence. As I've written before, Hendry tends to focus like the proverbial laser beam on what he wants, and he either gets it or damn near dies trying. It seems to me, based on several conversations, Hendry is doing all he can to pry Garza from the Rays, who have Garza, B.J. Upton and Andy Sonnanstine as arbitration eligible players this winter.

The only so-called untouchables on the Cubs are shortstop Starlin Castro, pitcher Andrew Cashner and center-field prospect Brett Jackson. To me, Archer should be in that group, but you have to give up something to get something, and that’s the price of poker, as Hendry likes to say.

The good news for those who follow Cubs prospects is that pitcher Trey McNutt does not appear to be part of any deal. Nor does third baseman Josh Vitters, although opinion is split on whether Vitters remains a top-flight prospect. Lee is a middle infielder. Archer was the Cubs' minor-league pitcher of the year in 2010, and outfielder Guyer was their minor-league player of the year. Chirinos is 25 and is a catcher converted from an infielder.

I can hear the howls of protest now: The Cubs have spent all this time building a good farm system, and now Hendry is going to trade it all away. Those protests aren't entirely baseless. On the other hand, the Cubs will tell you that part of a having a good farm system is using that talent for your own club as well as to obtain major-league talent.

Except for one trade, Hendry has done a good job with these types of trades. See Rich Harden, Derrek Lee and Aramis Ramirez. The one big clunker was the trade of three pitchers, including Ricky Nolasco to Florida for Juan Pierre between the 2005 and 2006 seasons. The Cubs overrated Pierre's strengths and underrated his weaknesses. They also look bad because they traded three young pitchers for a guy they had for only one year.

Their take on a Garza deal will be that they have Garza under control for several years and that he's a possible top-of-the-rotation pitcher. The first part is true; the second part is open to question. The Cubs also will tell you Garza has pitched in pressure and playoff situations, whereas a pitcher such as Zach Greinke (who went to the Brewers) has not.

Hendry has repeatedly said, and I think he believes it, that the Cubs are 3-4 moves away from contending in the NL Central again. Garza would be the third major move this winter, when the Cubs have signed first baseman Carlos Pena and reliever Kerry Wood, getting Wood for only $1.5 million and perhaps freeing up the money it would take to withstand even an arbitration hit by Garza.

A large segment of the Cubs' fan base has turned against Hendry after two straight disappointing seasons and with the 2004-06 disasters not forgotten, either.

Cubs owner Tom Ricketts seems still to have great faith in Hendry, who is signed through 2012. In the back of his mind, though, Hendry has to feel that the Cubs have to win this year; Ricketts might not have wanted to eat two years of Hendry's contract, but one might be palatable. Even though Ricketts has expressed his belief in the farm system, I doubt he'd veto this type of Garza scenario if he thought it could get the Cubs back into position for the playoffs.

Things have been very quiet around Wrigley Field the last few days, with Hendry hunkered down. Turns out it was a little too quiet.

[tim_m]

Looks like the Yanks maybe in on Soriano, that would make for one nast end of the bullpen.

I would think so too, but according to Buster Olney.

Buster_ESPN Buster Olney   
Heard this: As of 6 p.m. on Thursday, the Yankees are not interested in Rafael Soriano. They've seen a lot of $ squandered on set-up men.

Buster_ESPN Buster Olney   
Soriano would have to make himself absurdly cheap -- on a very short-term (1-year or 2-year deal) -- before NYY would even consider him.

Of course that could just be mindless chatter to throw people off.  The move would certainly make sense to me.  Since when do the Yankees care about squandering money on the most attractive reliever in the FA market?  I heard Soriano was a fallback plan if they couldn't get Pettitte to come back.  So maybe they think Andy will come back.  Again though, why not get them both?

From the Post on Andy.

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/yankees/andy_not_retired_p0TD9UO4iH6uUuO27kAfAN

DEER PARK, Texas -- Tanned and rested, Andy Pettitte stood on his front porch last night and answered the question on every Yankees fan's mind: Do you know if you're going to pitch this year?

"I don't," Pettitte told The Post fresh off his two-week vacation in Hawaii. "I'm just chilling out, hanging. I'm relaxing. If I had something, y'all would know. If I knew exactly what I was doing, y'all would know."

The 38-year-old pitcher said he is unsure when he will reach a decision. The veteran left-hander is the biggest story in the New York baseball world, but the always-humble Pettitte does not see it that way. He has maintained a low profile this winter, and was annoyed when a reporter showed up on his doorstep.
 

"I don't want to be a story," he said. "I really don't want [the Yankees] to worry about me. I just want them to go, just go on."

Pettitte told Yankees general manager Brian Cashman as much last month when he called him before the Winter Meetings to let him know that the Yankees should go about their business as if he won't be part of the 2011 team.

With spring training a little more than five weeks away, that leaves the Yankees with a rotation of CC Sabathia, Phil Hughes, A.J. Burnett and some question marks.

Pettitte looked to be in good shape, though he laughed when told he looked ready to pitch.

"I haven't done much," he said. "That's for sure. I was over in Hawaii, so I'm tan. My daughter keeps telling me I'm getting more gray hairs every day, so I don't know about that."

Pettitte would not say if he is currently leaning toward retirement, but that has been the feeling around the Yankees most of the winter. Mark Teixeira said he felt Pettitte was leaning that way last week. When it hit the newspapers, he called Pettitte to apologize, but Pettitte was in Hawaii and had not even seen the stories. Pettitte said he and Teixeira last spoke in the middle of December.

Pettitte chalked it up to things getting blown out of proportion in New York, a reason he is reluctant to discuss his decision with any depth.

"Everybody's so emotional up there," he said. "I feel like if you say anything, everyone reacts. I know that's what you're trying to do, but it's just like you see where I'm at down here."

With that, he pointed to his casual attire of black and white, checkered pajama pants and a long-sleeve, black T-shirt.

After talking for five minutes on his front porch, Pettitte started to head inside. As he got to his front door, I said, "See you in a few weeks in Tampa?"

"I don't know about that," Pettitte said with a big smile.

The wait continues.

brian.costello@nypost.com

As much as it pains me to say this, i think he's gonna call it a career eventhough i feel he can still pitch effectively. Had it not been for trying to come back too fast from his groin injury he may have had his best season as a pro last year. I just think at this point he feels he may have nothing left to prove and i would agree. I also think he is getting to the point where his kids are at an age he really wants to be there and who can blame him for that. Hes got 5 rings. He's been to a few all star games. He's proven he is one of the greatest post season pitchers of all time. I think ultimately he is a HOF'er too. Consider this, there is no pitcher 100 games or better over .500 not in the hall of fame.

[pilferk]

As much as it pains me to say this, i think he's gonna call it a career eventhough i feel he can still pitch effectively. Had it not been for trying to come back too fast from his groin injury he may have had his best season as a pro last year. I just think at this point he feels he may have nothing left to prove and i would agree. I also think he is getting to the point where his kids are at an age he really wants to be there and who can blame him for that. Hes got 5 rings. He's been to a few all star games. He's proven he is one of the greatest post season pitchers of all time. I think ultimately he is a HOF'er too. Consider this, there is no pitcher 100 games or better over .500 not in the hall of fame.

True.

But unfortunately none of those pitchers IN the HOF are admitted PED users...or weren't when they were voted in.

Now, before you get upset.....I love Andy.  And I completely "forgive" his indiscretion.

It's the HOF voters, specifically those in the media who have said they WILL not vote for anyone who had been linked to PED's, into the Hall.  That may be enough to keep him out, and, lets face it, his HOF vote is coming sooner than guys like A-rods.  Much of the same voter block will be around to be voting for (or not) Andy.

[faldor]

As much as it pains me to say this, i think he's gonna call it a career eventhough i feel he can still pitch effectively. Had it not been for trying to come back too fast from his groin injury he may have had his best season as a pro last year. I just think at this point he feels he may have nothing left to prove and i would agree. I also think he is getting to the point where his kids are at an age he really wants to be there and who can blame him for that. Hes got 5 rings. He's been to a few all star games. He's proven he is one of the greatest post season pitchers of all time. I think ultimately he is a HOF'er too. Consider this, there is no pitcher 100 games or better over .500 not in the hall of fame.

True.

But unfortunately none of those pitchers IN the HOF are admitted PED users...or weren't when they were voted in.

Now, before you get upset.....I love Andy.  And I completely "forgive" his indiscretion.

It's the HOF voters, specifically those in the media who have said they WILL not vote for anyone who had been linked to PED's, into the Hall.  That may be enough to keep him out, and, lets face it, his HOF vote is coming sooner than guys like A-rods.  Much of the same voter block will be around to be voting for (or not) Andy.

I'm not sure Pettitte is a sure fire HOF anyway, but I wouldn't count his PED use against him.  1) He admitted to it right away instead of staunchly denying it, and 2) even though it IS illegal, you could view his use of HGH as putting the team first.  He wanted to be out there to help his teammates.  He wasn't roiding up to make billions of dollars for himself.

But again, I don't know if Andy is HOF worthy.  I mean he certainly has a sterling post-season record, the rings, the winning percentage.  But he was never really considered an elite pitcher during his career.  He was always a GOOD pitcher, but he wasn't consistently viewed as a perennial Cy Young candidate.

[tim_m]

As much as it pains me to say this, i think he's gonna call it a career eventhough i feel he can still pitch effectively. Had it not been for trying to come back too fast from his groin injury he may have had his best season as a pro last year. I just think at this point he feels he may have nothing left to prove and i would agree. I also think he is getting to the point where his kids are at an age he really wants to be there and who can blame him for that. Hes got 5 rings. He's been to a few all star games. He's proven he is one of the greatest post season pitchers of all time. I think ultimately he is a HOF'er too. Consider this, there is no pitcher 100 games or better over .500 not in the hall of fame.

True.

But unfortunately none of those pitchers IN the HOF are admitted PED users...or weren't when they were voted in.

Now, before you get upset.....I love Andy.  And I completely "forgive" his indiscretion.

It's the HOF voters, specifically those in the media who have said they WILL not vote for anyone who had been linked to PED's, into the Hall.  That may be enough to keep him out, and, lets face it, his HOF vote is coming sooner than guys like A-rods.  Much of the same voter block will be around to be voting for (or not) Andy.

I agree with you and forgive him as well. I mean yes he did it a few times, was it wrong? Absolutely, but like you said he didn't do it to be bigger stronger and win more games. He did it to try and get healthy a little faster. Still wrong but he didn't do it for the reasons others did then denied ever doing it. That's true and if they keep him out he always has a chance with the veteran's committee.

[tim_m]

As much as it pains me to say this, i think he's gonna call it a career eventhough i feel he can still pitch effectively. Had it not been for trying to come back too fast from his groin injury he may have had his best season as a pro last year. I just think at this point he feels he may have nothing left to prove and i would agree. I also think he is getting to the point where his kids are at an age he really wants to be there and who can blame him for that. Hes got 5 rings. He's been to a few all star games. He's proven he is one of the greatest post season pitchers of all time. I think ultimately he is a HOF'er too. Consider this, there is no pitcher 100 games or better over .500 not in the hall of fame.

True.

But unfortunately none of those pitchers IN the HOF are admitted PED users...or weren't when they were voted in.

Now, before you get upset.....I love Andy.  And I completely "forgive" his indiscretion.

It's the HOF voters, specifically those in the media who have said they WILL not vote for anyone who had been linked to PED's, into the Hall.  That may be enough to keep him out, and, lets face it, his HOF vote is coming sooner than guys like A-rods.  Much of the same voter block will be around to be voting for (or not) Andy.

I'm not sure Pettitte is a sure fire HOF anyway, but I wouldn't count his PED use against him.  1) He admitted to it right away instead of staunchly denying it, and 2) even though it IS illegal, you could view his use of HGH as putting the team first.  He wanted to be out there to help his teammates.  He wasn't roiding up to make billions of dollars for himself.

But again, I don't know if Andy is HOF worthy.  I mean he certainly has a sterling post-season record, the rings, the winning percentage.  But he was never really considered an elite pitcher during his career.  He was always a GOOD pitcher, but he wasn't consistently viewed as a perennial Cy Young candidate.

That's true, i mean he does have the two 20 win seasons and his post season stats have to carry a pretty significant weight i'd think. I mean you just can't look past what he has done in October. WIthout him there are several championships the yankees wouldn't have won. 1996 comes to mind. That 1-0 pitchers duel he won against atlanta in game 3 to get us back in that series. That imo was one of the greatest world series games ever.

[faldor]

As much as it pains me to say this, i think he's gonna call it a career eventhough i feel he can still pitch effectively. Had it not been for trying to come back too fast from his groin injury he may have had his best season as a pro last year. I just think at this point he feels he may have nothing left to prove and i would agree. I also think he is getting to the point where his kids are at an age he really wants to be there and who can blame him for that. Hes got 5 rings. He's been to a few all star games. He's proven he is one of the greatest post season pitchers of all time. I think ultimately he is a HOF'er too. Consider this, there is no pitcher 100 games or better over .500 not in the hall of fame.

True.

But unfortunately none of those pitchers IN the HOF are admitted PED users...or weren't when they were voted in.

Now, before you get upset.....I love Andy.  And I completely "forgive" his indiscretion.

It's the HOF voters, specifically those in the media who have said they WILL not vote for anyone who had been linked to PED's, into the Hall.  That may be enough to keep him out, and, lets face it, his HOF vote is coming sooner than guys like A-rods.  Much of the same voter block will be around to be voting for (or not) Andy.

I'm not sure Pettitte is a sure fire HOF anyway, but I wouldn't count his PED use against him.  1) He admitted to it right away instead of staunchly denying it, and 2) even though it IS illegal, you could view his use of HGH as putting the team first.  He wanted to be out there to help his teammates.  He wasn't roiding up to make billions of dollars for himself.

But again, I don't know if Andy is HOF worthy.  I mean he certainly has a sterling post-season record, the rings, the winning percentage.  But he was never really considered an elite pitcher during his career.  He was always a GOOD pitcher, but he wasn't consistently viewed as a perennial Cy Young candidate.

That's true, i mean he does have the two 20 win seasons and his post season stats have to carry a pretty significant weight i'd think. I mean you just can't look past what he has done in October. WIthout him there are several championships the yankees wouldn't have won. 1996 comes to mind. That 1-0 pitchers duel he won against atlanta in game 3 to get us back in that series. That imo was one of the greatest world series games ever.

No doubt the guy was clutch in October.  But I just don't think he ranks up there with the other elite pitchers of his era, ie. Maddux, Martinez, Johnson, etc.  I certainly don't think he's a first ballot hall of famer.  Maybe further down the line, or maybe I'm undervaluing him.  Anything is possible, since I do HATE the Yankees.

[tim_m]

I agree he probably isn't first ballot. Maybe if he stays around long enough to get the yankee record for most wins while staying 100 games above .500 but most likely it will take him time to get it and possibly the veterans committee based on his PED admission.