2010 Baseball Season/Off-Season Discussion

[faldor]

Jeter winning is a joke. C'mon

He made 6 errors cause he can't get to enough balls to screw it up.

he fielded 200 less balls than the Whitesox Shortstop.

Yeah, I've read a lot of tweets from respected baseball writers in recent days who agree with that sentiment.  Not quite as bad as Rafael Palmeiro winning the gold glove that one year where he played a majority of his games at DH.

[tim_m]

Yeah, Jeter probably did not deserve it. However, Cano and Teixeira did. Cano may be the best second baseman in the AL.

[Falcon]

The Jeter thing is a bit goofy, probably should have gone to Elvis Andrus..

That said, there's not another guy playing short in the AL I'd rather have the ball hit to with game on the line than Jeter.

[Falcon]

Rookies of the Year announced, Posey and Feliz.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5808278

[tim_m]

Both correct choices imo.

[faldor]

Interesting that both guys played in the World Series.  I wonder when the last time that happened was.

[pilferk]

King Felix wins the Cy Young....which is ridiculous.

Price, who was close in many statistical categories (but had 7 more WINS) should have won this one.

I'm sorry, if you're 13-12, that means the "other guy" pitched better than you almost 1/2 of your decisions.  I don't care how well you pitch, if "the other guy" pitches better than you do...you don't deserve the Cy Young.

[GeorgeSteele]

King Felix wins the Cy Young....which is ridiculous.

Price, who was close in many statistical categories (but had 7 more WINS) should have won this one.

I'm sorry, if you're 13-12, that means the "other guy" pitched better than you almost 1/2 of your decisions.  I don't care how well you pitch, if "the other guy" pitches better than you do...you don't deserve the Cy Young.

That makes no sense.  The 'other guy' is pitching against an incompetent lineup.  Felix is hardly 'outpitched' if the other guy's job is much easier than his.   

[tim_m]

Has everyone seen the article on ESPN about the likely expansion of the playoffs to 10 teams adding a 4th round? Thoughts?

[pilferk]

That makes no sense.  The 'other guy' is pitching against an incompetent lineup.  Felix is hardly 'outpitched' if the other guy's job is much easier than his.   

1) Baseball is a team sport.   Individual award or not, there has to be context.

2) The pitchers job, on any given night, is to give up fewer runs than the other guy does. Felix didn't do that.  On 12 of his 25 decisions, the "other guy" pitched better than he did. 

The MVP of the league shouldn't  play for the last place team (unless his name is Arod, and I thought THAT was a fiasco) and the Cy Young winner shouldn't lose almost half his games.  ERA shouldn't be EVERYTHING, any more than wins should be.  Basically, there has to be balance.

The batter doesn't control how strong/good/effective the pitchers he faces are any given night, the fielders don't control how well the batter at the plate can hit the ball on any given night or the path/trajectory that ball might take....right? Every position operates within a span of things he can't control.   Felix might not be able to control how many runs his team scores, but he CAN control how many runs he gives up.  Sure, it sounds harsh to say "Give up fewer runs", but dem's the breaks,kid.   I'm not saying the guy is a bum, or should be released forthwith from the Mariners.  But I can't see the logic in saying ANYONE is the "best pitcher" in the league when they've lost about as often as they've won.  Logically, that makes zero sense.  It makes as much sense as Jeter winning the gold glove this year based solely on fielding percentage.

Wins = context.  I don't care HOW well you pitch, if the nameless/faceless opposing pitcher manages to pitch better than you do in 12 of your 25 decisions, you're not the best pitcher in the league.  I agree that Wins aren't everything, but they should be "something".  They need to be the context you use to look at all the rest of the stats.

Price shoulda won this in a landslide.  The stat geeks and sabermetric gurus have apparently taken over the voting block for Cy Young, and abandoned their voting for things like Gold Gloves.

[GeorgeSteele]

That makes no sense.  The 'other guy' is pitching against an incompetent lineup.  Felix is hardly 'outpitched' if the other guy's job is much easier than his.   

1) Baseball is a team sport.   Individual award or not, there has to be context.

2) The pitchers job, on any given night, is to give up fewer runs than the other guy does. Felix didn't do that.  On 12 of his 25 decisions, the "other guy" pitched better than he did. 

The MVP of the league shouldn't  play for the last place team (unless his name is Arod, and I thought THAT was a fiasco) and the Cy Young winner shouldn't lose almost half his games.  ERA shouldn't be EVERYTHING, any more than wins should be.  Basically, there has to be balance.

The batter doesn't control how strong/good/effective the pitchers he faces are any given night, the fielders don't control how well the batter at the plate can hit the ball on any given night or the path/trajectory that ball might take....right? Every position operates within a span of things he can't control.   Felix might not be able to control how many runs his team scores, but he CAN control how many runs he gives up.  Sure, it sounds harsh to say "Give up fewer runs", but dem's the breaks,kid.   I'm not saying the guy is a bum, or should be released forthwith from the Mariners.  But I can't see the logic in saying ANYONE is the "best pitcher" in the league when they've lost about as often as they've won.  Logically, that makes zero sense.  It makes as much sense as Jeter winning the gold glove this year based solely on fielding percentage.

Wins = context.  I don't care HOW well you pitch, if the nameless/faceless opposing pitcher manages to pitch better than you do in 12 of your 25 decisions, you're not the best pitcher in the league.  I agree that Wins aren't everything, but they should be "something".  They need to be the context you use to look at all the rest of the stats.

Price shoulda won this in a landslide.  The stat geeks and sabermetric gurus have apparently taken over the voting block for Cy Young, and abandoned their voting for things like Gold Gloves.

But my point is that other pitcher did NOT pitch better than him 12 times.  The other pitcher had the advantage of pitching against the worst offense in the modern era.  Seattle scored fewer runs than any AL team since the DH was adopted.  I can 'outpitch' Felix Hernandez if I pitch for the Texas Rangers and he pitches for the Bad News Bears. 

I'm not one to manipulate statistics -- Felix's are out there for everyone to see (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hernafe02.shtml).  He was the best in just about every pitching statistic, conventional, advanced, ultra-nerd, what have you. 

Barring some Haitian voodoo I'm unaware of, no pitcher can control how many runs his lineup scores for him (ignoring NL pitchers that hit).  He can only control giving up as few runs as possible.  Nobody did that better than Felix in 2010. 

Let's just take this to the logical extreme.  A pitcher who goes 0-33 having lost every single game 1-0 despite going nine innings and striking out 10 in all of those games, would not only deserve the Cy Young, but would have had the greatest single-season pitching performance in baseball history. 

Thing is, it's impossible to lose 33 games having pitched so well.  But it's still possible to win only 13 games when you pitch for the 2010 Seattle Mariners. 

[Falcon]

Has everyone seen the article on ESPN about the likely expansion of the playoffs to 10 teams adding a 4th round? Thoughts?

I fucking hate it for too many reasons to list.

As for the AL CY, I just can't get on board with the decision.  Price was jobbed by the sabersquad and the talking heads who perpetuate the notion.

I guess Joe Magrane should go back in time and claim his 1988 "missed" Cy Young for posting that 5-9 record with a stellar 2.18 ERA..

[D]

I've been saying on forums elsewhere also that Price should've won.

Felix had no pressure, no big games and nobody got UP to play his team.

He is a fantastic pitcher, but I've seen a lot of fantastic pitchers turn to crap when they got put in places like NY,Boston etc.

Of course, then again, A-Rod won an MVP playing for a last place team which is even more of a headscratcher. What, without you, your team loses 105 instead of 96? lol

[faldor]

That makes no sense.  The 'other guy' is pitching against an incompetent lineup.  Felix is hardly 'outpitched' if the other guy's job is much easier than his.   

1) Baseball is a team sport.   Individual award or not, there has to be context.

2) The pitchers job, on any given night, is to give up fewer runs than the other guy does. Felix didn't do that.  On 12 of his 25 decisions, the "other guy" pitched better than he did. 

The MVP of the league shouldn't  play for the last place team (unless his name is Arod, and I thought THAT was a fiasco) and the Cy Young winner shouldn't lose almost half his games.  ERA shouldn't be EVERYTHING, any more than wins should be.  Basically, there has to be balance.

The batter doesn't control how strong/good/effective the pitchers he faces are any given night, the fielders don't control how well the batter at the plate can hit the ball on any given night or the path/trajectory that ball might take....right? Every position operates within a span of things he can't control.   Felix might not be able to control how many runs his team scores, but he CAN control how many runs he gives up.  Sure, it sounds harsh to say "Give up fewer runs", but dem's the breaks,kid.   I'm not saying the guy is a bum, or should be released forthwith from the Mariners.  But I can't see the logic in saying ANYONE is the "best pitcher" in the league when they've lost about as often as they've won.  Logically, that makes zero sense.  It makes as much sense as Jeter winning the gold glove this year based solely on fielding percentage.

Wins = context.  I don't care HOW well you pitch, if the nameless/faceless opposing pitcher manages to pitch better than you do in 12 of your 25 decisions, you're not the best pitcher in the league.  I agree that Wins aren't everything, but they should be "something".  They need to be the context you use to look at all the rest of the stats.

Price shoulda won this in a landslide.  The stat geeks and sabermetric gurus have apparently taken over the voting block for Cy Young, and abandoned their voting for things like Gold Gloves.

But my point is that other pitcher did NOT pitch better than him 12 times.  The other pitcher had the advantage of pitching against the worst offense in the modern era.  Seattle scored fewer runs than any AL team since the DH was adopted.  I can 'outpitch' Felix Hernandez if I pitch for the Texas Rangers and he pitches for the Bad News Bears. 

I'm not one to manipulate statistics -- Felix's are out there for everyone to see (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hernafe02.shtml).  He was the best in just about every pitching statistic, conventional, advanced, ultra-nerd, what have you. 

Barring some Haitian voodoo I'm unaware of, no pitcher can control how many runs his lineup scores for him (ignoring NL pitchers that hit).  He can only control giving up as few runs as possible.  Nobody did that better than Felix in 2010. 

Let's just take this to the logical extreme.  A pitcher who goes 0-33 having lost every single game 1-0 despite going nine innings and striking out 10 in all of those games, would not only deserve the Cy Young, but would have had the greatest single-season pitching performance in baseball history. 

Thing is, it's impossible to lose 33 games having pitched so well.  But it's still possible to win only 13 games when you pitch for the 2010 Seattle Mariners. 

Agreed.  The award is for the best pitcher in the league.  It's different than the Most VALUABLE player.  But some seem to want to make it that.  Well, % wise Felix was STILL a more valuable pitcher for his team over Price.  He won 13 of the teams 61 games, 21.3%.  Price won 19 of 96, 19.7%.  Of course, CC won 22% of the Yanks games, so he would be THE most valuable % wise.  Bottom line is, they all had nearly as big an impact on the teams they played for.  And since Felix had better numbers up and down the board, outside of wins, he deserved to win.  Not sure if I would've voted for him, but I can certainly see why some would.

[AxlsMainMan]

Manny in Toronto again this weekend; looking suspicious

[GeorgeSteele]

Not too thrilled about Terry Collins getting the managing helm for the Mets.  Seems like he's a bit of a dick, which would be fine if he had a winning track record and all.  I was hoping they'd take the low drama route with Bob Melvin.  Oh well...

[Falcon]

No problem with Votto getting the NL MVP, was a bit baffled by the near unanimous vote considering Albert led him in most all the top ten offensive categories.  Would have thought it would have been more like a 20-12 vote but no matter really, it was Joey's year.

Crazy MVP numbers for Albert over his ten year career, 3 firsts and four second place finishes..

Hamilton gets it today over Cano, either would be a fine choice but it's Hamilton's to lose.

Strange choice for the Mets with Collins, probably more of a transitional choice to help change the team personality short term, the team needs an organizational facelift.  If I'm Alderson, everyone's available - David Wright included.

Time for the Yanks to get this Jeter deal done, not sure why they're playing it so public.

[tim_m]

The Jeter negotiations look like they're gonna get messy. I understand they don't wanna give him too much for too long considering he came off his worst offensive year. But c'mon you can't let this guy ever play for another team. If he gets hit 3000 wearing someone elses uniform Cashman should be tarred and feathered in public then run out of town. If George were still alive he'd be signed already.

[faldor]

Victor Martinez signed with the Tigers for just 8 million more than the Sox offered.  Obviously, the felt he wasn't worth it.  Problem is, you now need a catcher AND a middle of the order hitter.  And that's without factoring in Adrian Beltre, who will probably end up elsewhere as well. 

[faldor]

We're all setup for the showdown in Gillette. Both Jets and Pats are 9-2. Whoever wins this game likely not only wins the division but will likely be the top AFC seed. It should be a good game.

I think you've got the wrong thread there.  But I will be AT Gillette in 10 days to watch the Pats topple the Jets and take control of the AFC East,,,,,,, hopefully.

Since you're a Yankee fan Timothy, I'll get us back on track.  I think the Yankees are handling the Derek Jeter negotiations wonderfully.  You have to take your personal feelings away from the game and realize that it's a business.  And they're doing great business right now.  In fact, I think they're offering him way more than he's worth at this stage of his career.  I don't buy into the theory that you pay players like Jeter for what they've done in the past.  That's a bunch of bull.  You pay for what he'll do in the future, and in my mind he's not worth any more than 15 million a year.  And if he thinks he can get more than that, be my guest and go get it.  The Red Sox played nice with David Ortiz and overpaid him for next year by picking up his option.  They could've played hard ball, but they didn't.  They don't mind overpaying if it's in the short term.  They're more leery of overpaying for lengthy contracts.  3 years 45 million for Jeter isn't much of a risk for the Yankees.  Could they afford to pay him more?  Sure, but that's besides the point.  It's just good business, that's all.  It's the way the Patriots have handled things the last decade and things have worked pretty well for them.  I know it's hard to compare two sports, but in the end they're both BUSINESSES.  Unfortunately, it's not the same game that we grew up loving.

I think in the end he'll end up back in NY.  I'm surprised it's gotten this "ugly".  But as I said, he's not going to find a better offer, so he's not going anywhere.