2010 Baseball Season/Off-Season Discussion

[Falcon]

 
And, again....it could be that Roger is an idiot.  

May I add to that with "entitled".

[AxlsMainMan]

Manny's dreadlocks no more?

Is a so long, farewell coming for Manny Ramirez's hair? New team, new look? That's what White Sox GM Ken Williams intimated would happen once Manny Ramirez arrives Tuesday afternoon at Progressive Field. "We have a certain way we like to have our players represent us, and that was discussed quite some time ago with one of my coaches," Williams said Monday in response to a question about the Sox's rules governing appearance and Ramirez's dreadlocks. "We'll just wait and let you see how they decide to handle it. From my understanding, it's not going to be an issue, and he's going to make an adjustment and conform to how we like to have our players represented out there."

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/219410?eref=sircrc

[D]

Yeah but maybe Roger figured it out but whats he gonna do? in his mind he never cheated cause he didn't knowingly do it by his own free will. he has scene the other guys get crucified and knows that nobody will believe him. So he is sticking to his guns cause in his mind, he never did steroids.

[pilferk]

Good news for the Yanks is they don't play the Jays again for a month

Yes they do.

They actually play them again at the end of this week (Sept 3 - 5).  I'm at the game on the 3rd.

Or, you know...maybe there will be a HURRICANE due to hit that day or something.

Seriously, I have the worst luck trying to take my step-dad to games.  Last year we had bleacher seats to a game.  And it rained. It rained all day, in fact.  It was a scheduled 1 PM start time.  The game started, if I remember right, around 6:30 PM.  We watched it from my living room (with our own snacks and libations) and the Yanks let fans "trade in" the ticket for another game (used or not).

Try to take him to a game this year.  Get good seats, this time.  Now, it looks like another rainout!  At least, at this point, it's looking like SIGNIFICANT wind and rain that day.  I'm just hoping the Yanks, when taking everything into consideration, call the game early and reschedule for Saturday. 

[AxlsMainMan]

Don't worry Pilferk, if all does not go according to plan for you, I'll have a hotdog and some peanuts for you the end of this month when the Yanks return to Toronto

[Jdog0830]

Dam White Sox are gonna lose!!!
They had the fucking lead and piss it away ah!!!



Joe

[Falcon]

Been a while so here goes..

My Cards are toast and have been for quite a while - too many fringe players surrounding the core of Albert, Holliday, Molina, Rasmus, Wainwright and Carpenter..

Enjoyed the Yankee tribute to The Boss last night, very classy...

Dodgers may have sunk to an all time low image wise, divorce is indeed a bitch..

Red Sox just couldn't overcome the injuries but have hung tough throughout, very impressive.

Phillies are easily the class of the NL, healthy and ready for the postseason - my early pick to win the WS.  Phils in 6 over the Bombers, sorry pilf

One more Card note, saw Jason Larue in his first "real" interview since being kicked repeatedly in the back of the head by the coward that is Johnny Queto.  Forced to retire due to post concussion syndrome suffered in the Cincy/Cards brawl a month or so ago.

Make no mistake, Queto will have his day of reckoning and it will be much more than the 7 game sit down he got after the incident.

It'll happen next spring and probably by the hands of Larue's best friend on the team Chris Carpenter.

Above the waist and with intent to harm - something to look forward to...

[pilferk]

The Phillies and the Cards are the two NL teams I actually think are a threat to the Yanks.  And the Cards are going to be playing golf in a couple weeks.

The Phillies have a GREAT 1-3 in their rotation.  BUT, their offense has fallen off this year (more strikeouts, 100 less runs scored, 75 less HR, 40 less stolen bases).  Their defense has fallen off some (more errors...though their fielding % remains unchanged).  And one of their big advantages over the Yanks (their speed) has been minimized with some injuries.  Even when/if Rollins comes back...he's not going to be the speed theat he was, I suspect.


It's funny:  If you look at their numbers, it looks like their pitching has gotten better by the EXACT same margin their offense has declined.

I think it's a 7 game series, if it comes down to Yanks/Phillies.   Probably end up being CC vs Doc for the trophy...which makes it a coin toss.

All that assuming the Yanks parts perform as they should.  This has been one of those seasons where that's not a given.

In the AL...I'm not worried about Texas, especially given the news on Hamilton.  We seem to do OK vs the Rangers.

But the Twins and Rays are both dangerous.  The Twins are probably playing the best baseball in the league, right now...but then, they've had a MUCH easier 2nd half schedule (and they have a much easier September) than either the Rays or Yanks have had. 

I think if it doesn't come down to Yanks/Rays for the AL pennant, it will sort of be anticlimactic.  That's not to say the Yanks will win if the Rays don't make it...just that it almost feels like it HAS to be the Yank/Rays.  I still think the Yanks are the favorite in the AL, but given the injuries and inconsistencies, nothing is a given.  It's gonna be a tough post season.

[tim_m]

Our starting pitching has been better as of late. Having Pettitte back is HUGE. No way we go anywhere without him. Burnett has seemed to figured it out again. Hughes has been better again. He wasn't great last night but he battled through not having his best stuff and didn't give up the big hit. That's the kinda performance you would expect from a veteran. He really impressed me last night agaisnt one of the best teams in baseball. If we can get the Hughes that pitched his last two starts in the playoffs that will be huge. The offense is doing better too now that Swisher and Gardner are back in. We are a completely different lineup with those two in there. Jeter seems to have made some adjustments and is starting to figure it out at just the right time. Besides i wouldn't bet against him for anything come October in a big situation. Granderson is absolutely killing the ball. I have no idea what Long changed with his batting stance but it is paying dividends now.

[GeorgeSteele]

Curious on thoughts on the CC Sabathia / Felix Hernandez Cy Young debate.  CC has the 20 wins, but Felix leads in just about every other category.  Then again, there's the school of thought that pitchers pitch differently with a lead and so CC's numbers would be better if he were always pitching in tight ballgames.  There's also the Safeco field factor...

[tim_m]

You should also factor in without CC's 20 wins the yankees might be out of it right now.

[Falcon]

CC all the way in the Cy Young, The King  has strong numbers but I gotta go with the big fella.

Great segment on CC on Real Sports this month on HBO by the way, seems like a helluva guy.

For whatever reason, I think the Phils and the Yanks breeze through the playoffs and meet in the Fall Classic again.  A Game 7 Doc/CC matchup would make for great theatre.

Hopefully both teams are healthy and at full strength if the above scenario does indeed play out.

[faldor]

You should also factor in without CC's 20 wins the yankees might be out of it right now.

Yeah but unlike the MVP, the Cy Young doesn't always go to the most valuable pitcher.  Just to the best pitcher overall, regardless of team accomplishments.  Although if it was THAT close of a vote, maybe pitching for a winning team would be a good tiebreaker.

[Jdog0830]

Apparently Ozzy is worryied about his job on the White Sox with his contract ending soon.
Be a shame to see him go he is a great coach and a personality of one in a million.



Joe

[tim_m]

You should also factor in without CC's 20 wins the yankees might be out of it right now.

Yeah but unlike the MVP, the Cy Young doesn't always go to the most valuable pitcher.  Just to the best pitcher overall, regardless of team accomplishments.  Although if it was THAT close of a vote, maybe pitching for a winning team would be a good tiebreaker.

They actually were just talking about this during the Rays/Yanks game on ESPN. Saying that the inscription on it has changed. It used to say most valuable pitcher. Now it says most outstanding. Which i think is wrong. I think it should be the pitcher that is most valuable to their team. In this case i think it has to be Sabathia. Without him we would not be in first place right now. Period.

[faldor]

You should also factor in without CC's 20 wins the yankees might be out of it right now.

Yeah but unlike the MVP, the Cy Young doesn't always go to the most valuable pitcher.  Just to the best pitcher overall, regardless of team accomplishments.  Although if it was THAT close of a vote, maybe pitching for a winning team would be a good tiebreaker.

They actually were just talking about this during the Rays/Yanks game on ESPN. Saying that the inscription on it has changed. It used to say most valuable pitcher. Now it says most outstanding. Which i think is wrong. I think it should be the pitcher that is most valuable to their team. In this case i think it has to be Sabathia. Without him we would not be in first place right now. Period.

Oh I agree.  And I also think pitcher's should get more consideration when it comes to MVP voting.  I remember Pedro Martinez got robbed years back when that writer for the NY Post (George King?) left him off his ballot completely, along with one other writer.  Using the excuse that he didn't think a guy who only pitched every 5 days should be considered for the award.  That's a lame excuse.  Their impact on their teams have far more to do than what they do every 5th day.  I don't think a pitcher has been close since that year when Pedro finished 2nd in the voting.

BUT, the Cy Young IS different.  It really has nothing to do with playing on a good team.  Look at Zack Greinke from last year.

A little more on that MVP travesty from wikipedia.

In 1999, Mart?nez delivered one of the greatest pitching seasons of all time, finishing 23–4 with a 2.07 ERA and 313 strikeouts (earning the pitching Triple Crown), unanimously winning his second Cy Young Award (this time in the American League), and coming in second in the Most Valuable Player ballot.

The MVP result was controversial, as Mart?nez received the most first-place votes of any player (8 of 28), but was totally omitted from the ballot of two sportswriters, New York's George King and Minneapolis' LaVelle Neal. The two writers argued that pitchers were not sufficiently all-around players to be considered. (However, George King had given MVP votes to two pitchers just the season before: Rick Helling and David Wells; King was the only writer to cast a vote for Helling, who had gone 20–7 with a 4.41 ERA and 164 strikeouts.) MVP ballots have ten ranked slots, and sportswriters are traditionally asked to recuse themselves if they feel they cannot vote for a pitcher. "It really made us all look very dumb," said Buster Olney, then a sportswriter for the New York Times. "People were operating under different rules. The question of eligibility is a very basic thing. People were determining eligibility for themselves."[3] The Times does not permit its writers to participate in award voting. Mart?nez finished second to Texas Rangers catcher Iv?n Rodr?guez, by a margin of 252 points to 239. Rodr?guez had been included on all 28 ballots.

[pilferk]

Curious on thoughts on the CC Sabathia / Felix Hernandez Cy Young debate.  CC has the 20 wins, but Felix leads in just about every other category.  Then again, there's the school of thought that pitchers pitch differently with a lead and so CC's numbers would be better if he were always pitching in tight ballgames.  There's also the Safeco field factor...

Sorry....I don't care WHAT your stats are....if you're a .500 pitcher, you don't deserve to win the Cy Young.  Yes, wins are SOMEWHAT overrated as a statistical category..but they have to count for something.   And spotting 8 to 10 wins to your closest competitors in the race....you just can't win.  If the guy were 16-8 (like Grienke was last year), he'd be a shoe in.  But at 12-11....no way.

I actually think the race is between CC and Price (the two guys going tonight) and I think you give CC the slight edge.  And by "slight", I mean razor thin.  We'll see what happens over the next start (or two) from these guys.  Price could easily eek ahead.

[GeorgeSteele]

Sorry....I don't care WHAT your stats are....if you're a .500 pitcher, you don't deserve to win the Cy Young.  Yes, wins are SOMEWHAT overrated as a statistical category..but they have to count for something.   And spotting 8 to 10 wins to your closest competitors in the race....you just can't win.  If the guy were 16-8 (like Grienke was last year), he'd be a shoe in.  But at 12-11....no way.

I actually think the race is between CC and Price (the two guys going tonight) and I think you give CC the slight edge.  And by "slight", I mean razor thin.  We'll see what happens over the next start (or two) from these guys.  Price could easily eek ahead.

Well, he pitched for the worst team in the league that has scored fewer runs than any team in about the past 4 decades.  So it follows that he has about 8 fewer wins than the best team's best pitcher.  All other metrics suggest that he's pitched better than CC this year.  Last year, Felix's record was 19-5, but he's actually pitched better this year, which further illustrates how win totals don't adequately reflect how well a pitcher has performed.  16 times this season, he has given up 3 or fewer runs and not gotten a win.  With better luck just half of the time, he'd have 20 wins. 

     

[pilferk]

Well, he pitched for the worst team in the league that has scored fewer runs than any team in about the past 4 decades.  So it follows that he has about 8 fewer wins than the best team's best pitcher.  All other metrics suggest that he's pitched better than CC this year.  Last year, Felix's record was 19-5, but he's actually pitched better this year, which further illustrates how win totals don't adequately reflect how well a pitcher has performed.  16 times this season, he has given up 3 or fewer runs and not gotten a win.  With better luck just half of the time, he'd have 20 wins.      

No argument with any of that (though Seattle has only become the worst team in the AL in the later part of this season...for most of it, Baltimore was).   One thing, though: that stat also cuts both ways because  Hernandez pitches in the weakest division in the AL. 

His wins: Detroit x1, Baltimore x 1, Twins x 1, Padres x 1, Reds x 1, Yanks x 3, Oak x 1, Boston x 1, Tex x 1
His losses: KC x 1, Tex x 3, LAA x 3, Padres x 1, White Sox x1, Twins x 1, Cleveland x 1

Some good wins, some AWFUL losses.  Horrible in his division...good against the Yankees.

And, at the end of the day, I don't care.  If your record is 12-11. you don't win the Cy Young. It's that simple.

A pitcher has 2 jobs:  Prevent the other guys from scoring runs (which King Felix has done very well) and prevent the other guys from scoring more runs than you do (ie: wins/losses...which King Felix has not done so well).  He pitched well, but night in and night out...he didn't outpitch "the other guy".  If he had a string of no decisions...meaning the bullpen was blowing leads, or he was pitching to the same level as the opponent....I'd be more forgiving. 

Wins aren't EVERYTHING, but they are SOMETHING.  And his record means he doesn't, IMHO, win the Cy Young.   Call it luck, call it "not performing to the situation", call it whatever you want.  He didn't win enough games, if I had a vote, to vote him ahead of CC or Price.

[GeorgeSteele]

No argument with any of that (though Seattle has only become the worst team in the AL in the later part of this season...for most of it, Baltimore was).   One thing, though: that stat also cuts both ways because  Hernandez pitches in the weakest division in the AL. 

His wins: Detroit x1, Baltimore x 1, Twins x 1, Padres x 1, Reds x 1, Yanks x 3, Oak x 1, Boston x 1, Tex x 1
His losses: KC x 1, Tex x 3, LAA x 3, Padres x 1, White Sox x1, Twins x 1, Cleveland x 1

Some good wins, some AWFUL losses.  Horrible in his division...good against the Yankees.

And, at the end of the day, I don't care.  If your record is 12-11. you don't win the Cy Young. It's that simple.

A pitcher has 2 jobs:  Prevent the other guys from scoring runs (which King Felix has done very well) and prevent the other guys from scoring more runs than you do (ie: wins/losses...which King Felix has not done so well).  He pitched well, but night in and night out...he didn't outpitch "the other guy".  If he had a string of no decisions...meaning the bullpen was blowing leads, or he was pitching to the same level as the opponent....I'd be more forgiving. 

Wins aren't EVERYTHING, but they are SOMETHING.  And his record means he doesn't, IMHO, win the Cy Young.   Call it luck, call it "not performing to the situation", call it whatever you want.  He didn't win enough games, if I had a vote, to vote him ahead of CC or Price.

I get it, many feel the same way.  The thing about outpitching the other guy -- I think a pitcher that loses 2-1 pitched better than a guy who wins 4-3 (generally speaking), BUT I understand (and admire) the fact that the 4-3 winner may have had a 4-0 lead and chose to pitch to contact to get through innings quicker. The idea that you pitch only as well as you need to has merit in that it extends arm durability over a long season.  Howeva, IMO, the fact that he chose to pitch not as well as he could have doesn't change the fact that he did not pitch as well as the 2-1 loser who could not afford to be as economical with his pitches. 

As for quality of competition, yes, CC has him there.  So my imaginary vote would be affected by that -- but his lack of wins wouldn't deter me as much.  It's the pitching stat that is most dependent on the performance of your offense and therefore I think it should carry much less weight than it traditionally has in determining how well a pitcher performed in a given season.