Official Guns N Roses and Axl Twitter & Facebook updates

[allwaystired]

I have a master degree in Economy so i don't need a political science one. I just meant that Axl's known interests in the last 30 years are fucking models, partying, gettin drunk, biting bodyguards, being late at his own concerts etc etc. Full rockstar existence, and it's ok.

Thanks for proving that no matter what degree, you have, common sense isn't something that gets/can be taught.

You have very little idea of his interests, besides what you know from reading headlines. It's ok. But please don't expect us to think you're some kind of expert on Axl just because you studied at university.


On top of that, here you are defending a guy who's known interests are being on reality TV, running beauty contests and paying off women.



/jarmo

I just answered the guy, sincerely i don't care about my degree at all, but i knew someone who probably doesnt have one would have focused on that half sentence   . Classic, but it's ok.

Sure i have little ideas about his interests and here is the point: u are a public figure,  you have to have a certain public background to have a credibility in what you are saying. If you don't have one you have at least build one. Trump didn't have one as well as you said. But he joined the fight, he exposed his ideas people believed him and he won. Very simple. Now we have this guy Axl who is clearly against the orange guy and it's ok but he's been hiding for years we don't know shit about his ideas (and his music too  ), what kind of guy he really is (and he doesn't even care to show us), just goes out and say fuck this fuck that, hooker, asshole etc etc. Can i say that it's just useless and probably counterproductive? Obviously he can go on and on and on... who cares. But you won't add anything to the context. I mean you are a magnificent songwriter, 20000000 words in your  lyrics and all you can do is to insult? It's my opinion, and I'm talking about Axl but i could say this about many others public figures who look like they are joining the trend. That's it. More substance in your statements, cause again you are a public figure not an ordinary guy. But again, it's just my opinon, if you like the way he exposes himself  it's ok, to me it's useless, i think his rants had more substance than his "political" statements. And if u read Axl's long tweet he even knows that his tweets could be read as immature statements, like im saying. It's his choice so let it happen.

If you 'don't care about your degree at all' why are you mentioning it at all, let alone suggesting others don't have one in a condescending and patronising manner? 

What does a degree prove anyway? These days any clown can get one from some place or other.

Just to nip you in the bud before you say 'typical response of someone without a degree', personally I do have a degree. From a very good University. I see no reason to mention it to people though, let alone use it as a way to imply any sort of self-imposed superiority. True intelligence doesn't come from qualifications.

[jarmo]

I just answered the guy, sincerely i don't care about my degree at all, but i knew someone who probably doesnt have one would have focused on that half sentence   . Classic, but it's ok.

You just keep proving my point.....

Don't worry about my education level. Unlike you, I don't have a need to use it, or lack of it, as some kind of measure of my credibility.

Sure i have little ideas about his interests and here is the point: u are a public figure,  you have to have a certain public background to have a credibility in what you are saying. If you don't have one you have at least build one.

So basically what you're saying is that if someone starts making public comments about politics/current events today, they have less credibility to someone who has made comments for five years (for example)?

No matter what the backgrounds of these people are. I don't agree that things are that simple.






/jarmo

[ITARocker]

I just answered the guy, sincerely i don't care about my degree at all, but i knew someone who probably doesnt have one would have focused on that half sentence   . Classic, but it's ok.

You just keep proving my point.....

Don't worry about my education level. Unlike you, I don't have a need to use it, or lack of it, as some kind of measure of my credibility.

Sure i have little ideas about his interests and here is the point: u are a public figure,  you have to have a certain public background to have a credibility in what you are saying. If you don't have one you have at least build one.

So basically what you're saying is that if someone starts making public comments about politics/current events today, they have less credibility to someone who has made comments for five years (for example)?

No matter what the backgrounds of these people are. I don't agree that things are that simple.






/jarmo

Oh fuckIM NOT USING MY EDUCATION LEVEL. U are using mine one. And again, one thing are comments, opinions and other things are insults. I really think That a man like Axl, intelligent guy which obviously has a point of view on a lot of things  in general if he really wants to say something should say it in a proper and better way. He shouldn’t be like anybody out there, insulting or making fun of politicians tout court cause it can backfire . And this is why he had to explain the meaning of his tweets. But this is my opinion, if he likes it and you like it, go on.

[ITARocker]

Just to nip you in the bud before you say 'typical response of someone without a degree', personally I do have a degree. From a very good University. I see no reason to mention it to people though, let alone use it as a way to imply any sort of self-imposed superiority. True intelligence doesn't come from qualifications.

Lol it’s fun cause actually you are giving a non request answer Talkin about your degree and you superior university. Now I’ill start writing about it for Hours and Hours instead of staying in topic...

[allwaystired]

Just to nip you in the bud before you say 'typical response of someone without a degree', personally I do have a degree. From a very good University. I see no reason to mention it to people though, let alone use it as a way to imply any sort of self-imposed superiority. True intelligence doesn't come from qualifications.

Lol it’s fun cause actually you are giving a non request answer Talkin about your degree and you superior university. Now I’ill start writing about it for Hours and Hours instead of staying in topic...

No, I was showing how ludicrous and ridiculous it is to be making snipes at people on internet forums about their education levels.

Thank goodness you're here to tell us 'the proper and better way' for someone to make a personal comment about the appalling state America finds itself in.

[ITARocker]

Just to nip you in the bud before you say 'typical response of someone without a degree', personally I do have a degree. From a very good University. I see no reason to mention it to people though, let alone use it as a way to imply any sort of self-imposed superiority. True intelligence doesn't come from qualifications.

Lol it’s fun cause actually you are giving a non request answer Talkin about your degree and you superior university. Now I’ill start writing about it for Hours and Hours instead of staying in topic...

No, I was showing how ludicrous and ridiculous it is to be making snipes at people on internet forums about their education levels.

Thank goodness you're here to tell us 'the proper and better way' for someone to make a personal comment about the appalling state America finds itself in.

yeah appaling state. Watch economic stats before Covid and even now, under the circumstances. Then listen to Biden and his ‘buy American’... it doesn’t remind you something?   But ok America sucked in the last 4 years, and now its politics will drastically change, sure   . And if you are talking about Covid well... trust me... whatever you do its almost useless, just watch the other countries. Watch Italy, total Lockdown, we had our high death numbers in any case (much higher than in the US in percent), virus is still here and will be back but at the same time our economy has been destroyed because of the lockdown and almost 0 help from the government. This fall you’ll hear about Italy and riots...’Appaling state’ ..be serious, you'll see that you're doing better than many others out there. And if ‘black lives matter’ look at what is happening in Africa with Covid, so you'll se what a troubled black life really is. Look beyond the borders sometimes if u really think that america is sinking.

[carmiedisco12]

Just to nip you in the bud before you say 'typical response of someone without a degree', personally I do have a degree. From a very good University. I see no reason to mention it to people though, let alone use it as a way to imply any sort of self-imposed superiority. True intelligence doesn't come from qualifications.

Lol it’s fun cause actually you are giving a non request answer Talkin about your degree and you superior university. Now I’ill start writing about it for Hours and Hours instead of staying in topic...

No, I was showing how ludicrous and ridiculous it is to be making snipes at people on internet forums about their education levels.

Thank goodness you're here to tell us 'the proper and better way' for someone to make a personal comment about the appalling state America finds itself in.

yeah appaling state. Watch economic stats before Covid and even now, under the circumstances. Then listen to Biden and his ‘buy American’... it doesn’t remind you something?   But ok America sucked in the last 4 years, and now its politics will drastically change, sure   . And if you are talking about Covid well... trust me... whatever you do its almost useless, just watch the other countries. Watch Italy, total Lockdown, we had our high death numbers in any case (much higher than in the US in percent), virus is still here and will be back but at the same time our economy has been destroyed because of the lockdown and almost 0 help from the government. This fall you’ll hear about Italy and riots...’Appaling state’ ..be serious, you'll see that you're doing better than many others out there. And if ‘black lives matter’ look at what is happening in Africa with Covid, so you'll se what a troubled black life really is. Look beyond the borders sometimes if u really think that america is sinking.

Pretty sure Italy was the canary in the coal mine and therefore not a good example of lockdowns as the virus had already massively infiltrated the community. If you want to compare countries that had some forewarning and did embrace science, expert advice and the community were humble (and sensible enough) to co-operate in unison you should look at Australia and new Zealand. Both doing well and much less interruption to the economy (Yes a major hit still)
It's hard to believe that anyone could possibly still think masks, and lockdowns are not entirely logical in a viral pandemic.

Sweden believed implemented a herd community approach, that went brilliantly didn't it?

I would however agree that BLM is predominantly an exercise in either virtue signalling or good intentions from fairly ignorant people. very easy to explain that thought in irrefutable stats but I guess this is getting into totally non GNR chat now so won't bore everyone. I've phrased that in a very inelegant way but I'm too lazy to fix it .

[allwaystired]

Just to nip you in the bud before you say 'typical response of someone without a degree', personally I do have a degree. From a very good University. I see no reason to mention it to people though, let alone use it as a way to imply any sort of self-imposed superiority. True intelligence doesn't come from qualifications.

Lol it’s fun cause actually you are giving a non request answer Talkin about your degree and you superior university. Now I’ill start writing about it for Hours and Hours instead of staying in topic...

No, I was showing how ludicrous and ridiculous it is to be making snipes at people on internet forums about their education levels.

Thank goodness you're here to tell us 'the proper and better way' for someone to make a personal comment about the appalling state America finds itself in.

yeah appaling state. Watch economic stats before Covid and even now, under the circumstances. Then listen to Biden and his ‘buy American’... it doesn’t remind you something?   But ok America sucked in the last 4 years, and now its politics will drastically change, sure   . And if you are talking about Covid well... trust me... whatever you do its almost useless, just watch the other countries. Watch Italy, total Lockdown, we had our high death numbers in any case (much higher than in the US in percent), virus is still here and will be back but at the same time our economy has been destroyed because of the lockdown and almost 0 help from the government. This fall you’ll hear about Italy and riots...’Appaling state’ ..be serious, you'll see that you're doing better than many others out there. And if ‘black lives matter’ look at what is happening in Africa with Covid, so you'll se what a troubled black life really is. Look beyond the borders sometimes if u really think that america is sinking.

Absolutely absurd comments, obviously.

If you genuinely believe that America is handling coronavirus well, then I pity you. And I'm not even going to respond to your risible attempt to mock the 'black lives matter' movement, as you're clearly just trolling at this point.

Never mind looking behind borders, my advice would be to look beyond your own tiny world and the confines of internet forums. Best of luck. I don't come here to read rubbish like this.

[PermissionToLand]

I have a master degree in Economy so i don't need a political science one.

You mean a Master(s) degree in econom(ics)? I'm going to doubt that if you can't even properly name the title. That's also irrelevant because... well duh, politics and economics are two entirely different disciplines. 

I just meant that Axl's known interests in the last 30 years are fucking models, partying, gettin drunk, biting bodyguards, being late at his own concerts etc etc.

Really now? You know what the most notorious recluse in all of rock n roll does in his spare time? Please. Guns are collectively probably the most well-read band in the biz. Duff studied business, has a passion for history and is an excellent writer with a regular column with Seattle Weekly. Slash has surprised me with his knowledge of various books over the years, and you can tell from his vocabulary that he reads more than most. And everyone who has ever met Axl will attest to his intelligence and depth. If you think Axl is just a mindless partying rockstar, you clearly have not grasped any of his lyrics...

But hey, if you really were so much more knowledgeable than Axl, you wouldn't need to attack him personally, you would simply provide rebuttals to his arguments. The fact that you're making ad hominems says everything.

At the age of 54 he voted probably for the first time in his life in the easiest election ever and...he lost. So now he holds this grudge he can't get rid of.

Imagine being this arrogant and assumptive. You have no freaking clue how many times he's voted. And you have no clue who he voted for. Maybe he voted for Bernie and sat out 2016. Maybe he's a libertarian and went for Johnson. Or Green and voted Stein. Hell, maybe he voted Trump and immediately regretted it like my father.

And now you're trying to armchair pathologize him? Do you have another "master degree" in Psychology now, too? Or is that also "the same thing as economics" and so you're qualified to tell other people to shut up because you're the expert?

In the last 30 years he never exposed himself unlike other rockstars (bono, eddie vedder etc.... whether you like them or not)and now he's acting like a fan more than anything else and to me it's not a good thing. NEver went to the internet, never shew interest in anything and suddenly he doesn't lose a chance to adress trump and everyone else who sip a coffee with him as shits (like his friend baz these days, he suddenly woke up).

So he's not entitled to change himself over the years? If you want to have an opinion on anything, you have to have that opinion from... what age? 18? 12? Infancy? Your arguments are so fucking ridiculous... Not to mention, he has spoken out against unjust authorities his entire career. You may remember some rants about overzealous cops hassling him before a show in 1988. Or writing a song called CIVIL WAR. If you think that wasn't political, you're beyond naive.

Being mad at people, insulting them is not what Martin Luther King did. He had opinions, he spoke his reasons etc etc. He didn't say "this guys suck" and turn off his laptop.

Sure it was. He used more flowery language but it was criticizing those in power one way or the other. And of course, the point flew way over your head that "you're just mad and being rude" is precisely the kind of cheap potshots they took at MLK to shut him up. Because it's incredibly easy to just dismiss criticism as anger or jealousy or whatever, so you don't actually have to engage the arguments and form rebuttals. Which is precisely what you were doing, and something MLK called out very specifically:

"the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice" - MLK

This is calling out precisely the kind of tone policing you are using to dismiss and silence Axl. Instead of responding to his allegations of injustice, you call for the negative peace of respectability politics; where it's "civil" to call for inhumane policies as long as you do so without swearing or being rude, and if you call for actual justice, but you do so in a way that can be construed as "rude" or "mean', you are attacked. It's perverse and disgusting.

And Axl did expand on his thoughts in the longer tweet.

So what do you all expect from any people who comment his tweets? Yeah "trump is shit, i love you axl".

Of course, we all know Trump's replies are not filled with "Libtards are shit, I love you Trump!" 

And yes he's a democrat he said he would had voted Obama, he re-tweet biden...so what else???

Anybody who retweets Biden is a Democrat? I guess somebody should tell Mitt Romney he's a Democrat! I bet he also didn't vote for Obama! 

Maybe it's you who need a degree in something to understand simple things  rofl

"Being mad at people, insulting them is not what Martin Luther King did. He had opinions, he spoke his reasons etc etc. He didn't say "maybe you need a degree, stupidface!" and turn off his laptop."

BTW, my degree is in... wait for it... Political Science.

I understand me too and, in general, the  defence of women's rights better than you... Go send a email to one of the girls and call her  a hooker. Or try to diminsh a woman's public role with a sexist insult, and then let's see what happens... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

I love how you even ape Trump's defense mechanisms. "I respect women. In fact, I respect women more than you or anyone else in the world!!!!" What a joke.

Again, MeToo is not about sexist insults, it's about SEXUAL ASSAULT. You have no freaking clue what you're talking about, kiddo. Just drop it, this ain't the hill you wanna die on.

Also, he said "alleged former hooker" which is a factual statement; there are allegations. People are saying things! I'm sorry the facts hurt your feelings. If you see sex work as "diminishing a woman's role", it sounds you are the sexist here...

And yes i'm not a pro-trump guy (why should I? I can't vote for him. And technically I would be a socialist, in the italian sense, so very far from his believes) .

Funny because you consistently post far right reactionary comments around here and nothing whatsoever to indicate progressive values.

I don't even like his persona as many others, the tweets etc... Sometimes i like his sense of humor but that's it.

Ah, the classic "I don't like his tweets" fake token criticism. Yep, that proves you're not a sycophant!

Trump could make america 1000 times richer and would be called a shit in any case.

He's made the 1% 1000 times richer with his tax breaks while the rest of us continue to struggle, so your little fantasy unicorn world is irrelevant.

PS:about all the Obama comments: you just confirmed what  i wrote

Don't hurt yourself explaining that, now! Just do the classic "you proved my point" and then run away!

You can't form a rebuttal to my argument so you just play a childish "I'm rubber and you're glue" game. That's what this entire little rant you vomited out has been. Not a single substantive rebuttal to any of my arguments despite your "expertise". Obama was criticized for wearing a fucking TAN SUIT! and saluting with a coffee cup. And you try to paint Trump as a victim. Come the fuck on. You are not living in reality. And you are also not engaging me in good faith. You're just defending your ego.

[PermissionToLand]

I would however agree that BLM is predominantly an exercise in either virtue signalling or good intentions from fairly ignorant people. very easy to explain that thought in irrefutable stats but I guess this is getting into totally non GNR chat now so won't bore everyone. I've phrased that in a very inelegant way but I'm too lazy to fix it .

Oh god, you were about to do the "black on black crime" and 13/50 shit, weren't you? You know, the dissemination of literal white supremacist talking points among the right throughout these protests has really been revealing.

https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/1352-1390

[carmiedisco12]

I would however agree that BLM is predominantly an exercise in either virtue signalling or good intentions from fairly ignorant people. very easy to explain that thought in irrefutable stats but I guess this is getting into totally non GNR chat now so won't bore everyone. I've phrased that in a very inelegant way but I'm too lazy to fix it .

Oh god, you were about to do the "black on black crime" and 13/50 shit, weren't you? You know, the dissemination of literal white supremacist talking points among the right throughout these protests has really been revealing.

https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/1352-1390

Let me be clear though. Do I think there is a massive issue with Police training and culture? Yes. Do I think there is a massive disparity between rich and poor that matches along racial lines? Damn straight. Do I think that all people regardless of race should get a fair shake, be treated with respect, kindness and have a chance at achieving success and happiness based on their personal attributes and hard work....sing it sister!!!

I personally have no feeling of alignment with any definable group , politically, ideologically religious or otherwise. I make up my mind on all topics as much as my puny brain can interpret the facts as independently from an echo chamber and am hopefully humble enough to accept where I am wrong.
Too many people suffer from the Dunning Kruger effect and I try to avoid that pitfall.

Any view I have I would like to think are based in logic and statistical analysis. However I would also like to think are framed through a prism of empathy for my fellow human beings regardless of colour or culture (other than people that listen to Emo rock.....we all have to draw a line somewhere)

In all discussions facts count more than emotion, at least as a starting point to determine the lay of the land before addressing concerns. What we assume, perceive or wish has little bearing on reality and the only way to define reality is science, statistics and to an extent rationale debate excluding emotions as much as possible. We still have to be sympathetic and humble enough to admit where another's logic makes sense and even when the facts don't bare out the underlying emotion we have to be open to persuading with kindness.

So with that lengthy disclaimer said do BLM? Obviously, to say otherwise is ridiculous.

However I'm not convinced the BLM movement is entirely altruistic for many of it's proponents nor is it focusing on the issues that most affect black lives (and yes black on black crime is part of that discussion. A more nuanced discussion of that deals with financial inequity among other things. In America it's much easier to get a foothold if your parents and forebears had wealth)

But to solve difficult problems we must be able to have uncomfortable, open discussions on topics like crime without the fear of being called a name ending with íst'. To avoid that would be intellectually cowardly and not everyone that brooches taboo topics has a malicious intent. Some of us just want to work out where the problems lay before looking at the causes and solutions. Not everything is about blame. I for one think high crime rates are entirely  a symptom of hopelessness, disenfranchisement and lack of loving home and community. The solution being a more fair application of unfettered capitalism and not the winner takes all approach. Poor people are lost in a modern culture that values wealth over all else and a society that is at ease leaving the poor and homeless destitute etc etc. All contributing factors. BLM is simplistic tokenism where deeper discussions are required.

My critique of the BLM protests is that it seems to me the noble concept of equality has been co-opted and that the movement is as much about virtue signaling  fueled by a mildly radicalized left wing ideology (Authority is bad, white people are bad) than the  stated intent of  valuing everyone equally and authentic love of your fellow humans with all life being of equal value regardless of race. . As a concept, peaceful protest on anti Police violence and a demand to have a more fair and equitable society? 2 thumbs up but......

In a country where 92 people are shot and 27 killed in Chicago on one weekend, in a world where black people are openly sold in slavery in Libya, where Muslim minorities are placed in concentration camps by the Chinese Govt, where in parts of the middle east the treatment of women and homosexuals is abhorrent etc etc etc etc. Are the worldwide protests in the middle of a pandemic truly a proportionate response to a horrific and disgusting murder of George Floyd and the publics perception of Police bias against black people?  I would argue no. Not only because if you truly care about black lives then you also focus on where the most suffering is (as above) and are also open to the possibility that the stats don't bare out police violence being disproportionality racist. Rather a matter of poor training, poor culture on the whole, along with the problems policing one of the most heavily armed civilian populations on the planet(Controversial I know but clearly plausible based on the stats) Clearly the militaristic American policing approach applies hammers to nails that often benefit from a social worker more than handcuffs. But an open analysis of the stats does seem to indicate Police are not applying force in a racist manner despite the publics perception.

I do not say I am correct but based on various studies, statistics and well reasoned arguments from credible intellectuals (Sam Harris for one) then it does appear Police violence is not targeted at black people because of race and therefore a lot of the protestors are actually arguing the wrong point due to a perception rather than knowledge.

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w8daOAobjw


No doubt I'll flamed and/or stir up a hornets nest bit am unlikely to respond as I'm quite busy. But rest assured I value all lives and genuinely care and love people especially those struggling or being unjustly victimized. My views are my best attempt to interpret reality and reject all forms of ideology or the modern toxic tribalism that inhibits healthy discussion.

[ITARocker]

Man you're so boring, really... Why you always quote single lines or words trying to manipulate the meaning of what I'm saying? If You just want to read what you want, man, keep going I won't play your game.

[ITARocker]

I would however agree that BLM is predominantly an exercise in either virtue signalling or good intentions from fairly ignorant people. very easy to explain that thought in irrefutable stats but I guess this is getting into totally non GNR chat now so won't bore everyone. I've phrased that in a very inelegant way but I'm too lazy to fix it .

Oh god, you were about to do the "black on black crime" and 13/50 shit, weren't you? You know, the dissemination of literal white supremacist talking points among the right throughout these protests has really been revealing.

https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/1352-1390

Let me be clear though. Do I think there is a massive issue with Police training and culture? Yes. Do I think there is a massive disparity between rich and poor that matches along racial lines? Damn straight. Do I think that all people regardless of race should get a fair shake, be treated with respect, kindness and have a chance at achieving success and happiness based on their personal attributes and hard work....sing it sister!!!

I personally have no feeling of alignment with any definable group , politically, ideologically religious or otherwise. I make up my mind on all topics as much as my puny brain can interpret the facts as independently from an echo chamber and am hopefully humble enough to accept where I am wrong.
Too many people suffer from the Dunning Kruger effect and I try to avoid that pitfall.

Any view I have I would like to think are based in logic and statistical analysis. However I would also like to think are framed through a prism of empathy for my fellow human beings regardless of colour or culture (other than people that listen to Emo rock.....we all have to draw a line somewhere)

In all discussions facts count more than emotion, at least as a starting point to determine the lay of the land before addressing concerns.  We still have to be sympathetic and humble enough to admit where another's logic makes sense and even when the facts don't bare out the underlying emotion we have to be open to persuading with kindness.

So with that lengthy disclaimer said do BLM? Obviously, to say otherwise is ridiculous.

However I'm not convinced the BLM movement is entirely altruistic for many of it's proponents nor is it focusing on the issues that most affect black lives (and yes black on black crime is part of that discussion. A more nuanced discussion of that deals with financial inequity among other things. In America it's much easier to get a foothold if your parents and forebears had wealth)

But to solve difficult problems we must be able to have uncomfortable, open discussions on topics like crime without the fear of being called a name ending with íst'. To avoid that would be intellectually cowardly and not everyone that brooches taboo topics has a malicious intent. Some of us just want to work out where the problems lay before looking at the causes and solutions. Not everything is about blame. I for one think high crime rates are entirely  a symptom of hopelessness, disenfranchisement and lack of loving home and community. The solution being a more fair application of unfettered capitalism and not the winner takes all approach. Poor people are lost in a modern culture that values wealth over all else and a society that is at ease leaving the poor and homeless destitute etc etc. All contributing factors. BLM is simplistic tokenism where deeper discussions are required.

My critique of the BLM protests is that it seems to me the noble concept of equality has been co-opted and that the movement is as much about virtue signaling  fueled by a mildly radicalized left wing ideology (Authority is bad, white people are bad) than the  stated intent of  valuing everyone equally and authentic love of your fellow humans with all life being of equal value regardless of race. . As a concept, peaceful protest on anti Police violence and a demand to have a more fair and equitable society? 2 thumbs up but......

In a country where 92 people are shot and 27 killed in Chicago on one weekend, in a world where black people are openly sold in slavery in Libya, where Muslim minorities are placed in concentration camps by the Chinese Govt, where in parts of the middle east the treatment of women and homosexuals is abhorrent etc etc etc etc. Are the worldwide protests in the middle of a pandemic truly a proportionate response to a horrific and disgusting murder of George Floyd and the publics perception of Police bias against black people?  I would argue no. Not only because if you truly care about black lives then you also focus on where the most suffering is (as above) and are also open to the possibility that the stats don't bare out police violence being disproportionality racist. Rather a matter of poor training, poor culture on the whole, along with the problems policing one of the most heavily armed civilian populations on the planet(Controversial I know but clearly plausible based on the stats) Clearly the militaristic American policing approach applies hammers to nails that often benefit from a social worker more than handcuffs. But an open analysis of the stats does seem to indicate Police are not applying force in a racist manner despite the publics perception.

I do not say I am correct but based on various studies, statistics and well reasoned arguments from credible intellectuals (Sam Harris for one) then it does appear Police violence is not targeted at black people because of race and therefore a lot of the protestors are actually arguing the wrong point due to a perception rather than knowledge.

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w8daOAobjw


No doubt I'll flamed and/or stir up a hornets nest bit am unlikely to respond as I'm quite busy. But rest assured I value all lives and genuinely care and love people especially those struggling or being unjustly victimized. My views are my best attempt to interpret reality and reject all forms of ideology or the modern toxic tribalism that inhibits healthy discussion.

Man you have good points (as well as your previous answer)  but you are  wasting your time here... I can already hear him "BLM movement is not about black people around the world, is about african american people and it's totally right".

[carmiedisco12]

I would however agree that BLM is predominantly an exercise in either virtue signalling or good intentions from fairly ignorant people. very easy to explain that thought in irrefutable stats but I guess this is getting into totally non GNR chat now so won't bore everyone. I've phrased that in a very inelegant way but I'm too lazy to fix it .

Oh god, you were about to do the "black on black crime" and 13/50 shit, weren't you? You know, the dissemination of literal white supremacist talking points among the right throughout these protests has really been revealing.

https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/1352-1390

Let me be clear though. Do I think there is a massive issue with Police training and culture? Yes. Do I think there is a massive disparity between rich and poor that matches along racial lines? Damn straight. Do I think that all people regardless of race should get a fair shake, be treated with respect, kindness and have a chance at achieving success and happiness based on their personal attributes and hard work....sing it sister!!!

I personally have no feeling of alignment with any definable group , politically, ideologically religious or otherwise. I make up my mind on all topics as much as my puny brain can interpret the facts as independently from an echo chamber and am hopefully humble enough to accept where I am wrong.
Too many people suffer from the Dunning Kruger effect and I try to avoid that pitfall.

Any view I have I would like to think are based in logic and statistical analysis. However I would also like to think are framed through a prism of empathy for my fellow human beings regardless of colour or culture (other than people that listen to Emo rock.....we all have to draw a line somewhere)

In all discussions facts count more than emotion, at least as a starting point to determine the lay of the land before addressing concerns.  We still have to be sympathetic and humble enough to admit where another's logic makes sense and even when the facts don't bare out the underlying emotion we have to be open to persuading with kindness.

So with that lengthy disclaimer said do BLM? Obviously, to say otherwise is ridiculous.

However I'm not convinced the BLM movement is entirely altruistic for many of it's proponents nor is it focusing on the issues that most affect black lives (and yes black on black crime is part of that discussion. A more nuanced discussion of that deals with financial inequity among other things. In America it's much easier to get a foothold if your parents and forebears had wealth)

But to solve difficult problems we must be able to have uncomfortable, open discussions on topics like crime without the fear of being called a name ending with íst'. To avoid that would be intellectually cowardly and not everyone that brooches taboo topics has a malicious intent. Some of us just want to work out where the problems lay before looking at the causes and solutions. Not everything is about blame. I for one think high crime rates are entirely  a symptom of hopelessness, disenfranchisement and lack of loving home and community. The solution being a more fair application of unfettered capitalism and not the winner takes all approach. Poor people are lost in a modern culture that values wealth over all else and a society that is at ease leaving the poor and homeless destitute etc etc. All contributing factors. BLM is simplistic tokenism where deeper discussions are required.

My critique of the BLM protests is that it seems to me the noble concept of equality has been co-opted and that the movement is as much about virtue signaling  fueled by a mildly radicalized left wing ideology (Authority is bad, white people are bad) than the  stated intent of  valuing everyone equally and authentic love of your fellow humans with all life being of equal value regardless of race. . As a concept, peaceful protest on anti Police violence and a demand to have a more fair and equitable society? 2 thumbs up but......

In a country where 92 people are shot and 27 killed in Chicago on one weekend, in a world where black people are openly sold in slavery in Libya, where Muslim minorities are placed in concentration camps by the Chinese Govt, where in parts of the middle east the treatment of women and homosexuals is abhorrent etc etc etc etc. Are the worldwide protests in the middle of a pandemic truly a proportionate response to a horrific and disgusting murder of George Floyd and the publics perception of Police bias against black people?  I would argue no. Not only because if you truly care about black lives then you also focus on where the most suffering is (as above) and are also open to the possibility that the stats don't bare out police violence being disproportionality racist. Rather a matter of poor training, poor culture on the whole, along with the problems policing one of the most heavily armed civilian populations on the planet(Controversial I know but clearly plausible based on the stats) Clearly the militaristic American policing approach applies hammers to nails that often benefit from a social worker more than handcuffs. But an open analysis of the stats does seem to indicate Police are not applying force in a racist manner despite the publics perception.

I do not say I am correct but based on various studies, statistics and well reasoned arguments from credible intellectuals (Sam Harris for one) then it does appear Police violence is not targeted at black people because of race and therefore a lot of the protestors are actually arguing the wrong point due to a perception rather than knowledge.

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w8daOAobjw


No doubt I'll flamed and/or stir up a hornets nest bit am unlikely to respond as I'm quite busy. But rest assured I value all lives and genuinely care and love people especially those struggling or being unjustly victimized. My views are my best attempt to interpret reality and reject all forms of ideology or the modern toxic tribalism that inhibits healthy discussion.

Man you have good points (as well as your previous answer)  but you are  wasting your time here... I can already hear him "BLM movement is not about black people around the world, is about african american people and it's totally right".

I am old and wise grasshopper

I was disgusted by  the death of George Floyd and if I lived in that community I would absolutely have joined a peaceful protest march. Preferably I would have intervened in the moment but that's male heroic speak.

But the facts do not appear to back up the premise behind the worldwide protests (if it's about American Police on black community violence rather thane a more generic call for racial equality. In which case the acronym BLM should be canned for an all encompassing ALM approach) .And there are so, so many true, unarguable injustices that should be causes for worldwide protest, not just local protest but true inhumanity on genocidal scales. Unfortunately people are either uneducated on the world outside their borders (especially Americans) or simply value the lives of less visible or fashionable groups with less urgency.

I guess glass half full view is that it's nice that people are at least trying to do what they view as right and care about people other than self. That is a net positive.

The means of improving policing is relatively simple and I'm glad that it is more of a focus...great. But that's low hanging fruit and a seriously bad diversion from the true underlying economic and governmental structural issues that to a large extent cause civil unrest, corruption, crime, and the divide that inflames division and racism etc etc......as RATM sang. Know your enemy and take the power back (raises one fist

American culture is a dumpster fire and Trump has poured fuel on it. The sooner America gets rid of that narcassistic sociopath the better and hopefully the pendulum will swing to a more communal view of well being.

If you want to fight societal issues then be educated not a lemming. And so endeth the sermon.

[westcoast_junkie]

First of all, we're all the same race: humans. That so many still speaks of different races is a sign of ignorance or lack of education.

Theese protests have had a great impact, even in my little corner of the world. Lots of people coming out with racism-stories. Seems like most non-blenda white have experienced some sort of discrimination.

To argue that BLM shouldn't protest over one episode, because statistics aays this and that, is like saying we shouldn't care for standing up against coal pollution if we don't stand up against oil production, and then again we must stand up against the forest industry and so it goes on and on...

[carmiedisco12]

First of all, we're all the same race: humans. That so many still speaks of different races is a sign of ignorance or lack of education.

Theese protests have had a great impact, even in my little corner of the world. Lots of people coming out with racism-stories. Seems like most non-blenda white have experienced some sort of discrimination.

To argue that BLM shouldn't protest over one episode, because statistics aays this and that, is like saying we shouldn't care for standing up against coal pollution if we don't stand up against oil production, and then again we must stand up against the forest industry and so it goes on and on...

In many ways i do not entirely disagree with you but I would refer you to this portion of what i said, specifically the portion in brackets. Yes many good by-products but if the basis of the foundation or the protest may be at least partially inaccurate then that doesn't bother you? i guess a large part of my point is that it seems to be exclusively about BLM. I'm all for worldwide discussions and peaceful protests about genuine equality. But to my mind this isn't it. Again just one mans view
If the by products to the protests are positive that's awesome. But I was questioning the facts behind it, the virtue signaling of many of the protestors and the apparent disregard for the health of the communities elderly and infirmed which to me at least implies the protestors don't genuinely care so much about life and well being as winning an ideological argument.


But the facts do not appear to back up the premise behind the worldwide protests (if it's about American Police on black community violence rather than a more generic call for racial equality. In which case the acronym BLM should be canned for an all encompassing ALM approach)

[pilferk]

First of all, we're all the same race: humans. That so many still speaks of different races is a sign of ignorance or lack of education.

Theese protests have had a great impact, even in my little corner of the world. Lots of people coming out with racism-stories. Seems like most non-blenda white have experienced some sort of discrimination.

To argue that BLM shouldn't protest over one episode, because statistics aays this and that, is like saying we shouldn't care for standing up against coal pollution if we don't stand up against oil production, and then again we must stand up against the forest industry and so it goes on and on...

In many ways i do not entirely disagree with you but I would refer you to this portion of what i said, specifically the portion in brackets. Yes many good by-products but if the basis of the foundation or the protest may be at least partially inaccurate then that doesn't bother you? i guess a large part of my point is that it seems to be exclusively about BLM. I'm all for worldwide discussions and peaceful protests about genuine equality. But to my mind this isn't it. Again just one mans view
If the by products to the protests are positive that's awesome. But I was questioning the facts behind it, the virtue signaling of many of the protestors and the apparent disregard for the health of the communities elderly and infirmed which to me at least implies the protestors don't genuinely care so much about life and well being as winning an ideological argument.


But the facts do not appear to back up the premise behind the worldwide protests (if it's about American Police on black community violence rather than a more generic call for racial equality. In which case the acronym BLM should be canned for an all encompassing ALM approach)

I'm not in the fray, but the larger problem here is the statistics you're citing are also racially biased and influenced.  I'll give you a couple examples of why that is.

In the suburbs, two white teens get into a fist fight on a basketball court.  Cops show up, break the fight up, cool them down, and then basically let them go (maybe with a pop in and conversation with the kids parents).

That happens between two black teens in the inner city, and both kids end up in the system...and it's recorded as "black on black" crime.

A white teen gets pulled over for a routine traffic stop and is found with 3 or 4 oz of weed on them.  That teen MIGHT see the system, but is usually issued a citation, released on their own recog, and never sees jail (or a felony charge).

A black teen in the same situation?  Arrested and charged with a felony (intent to sell) and is in the system.

Crime statistics/rates nationwide back this up.

You're basing your position on flawed and racially influenced data.

I'm not going to perpetuate the discussion beyond this post.  But if you are as data driven as you say, I'd suggest you need to dive a LOT deeper than the surface statistics you're using.

Oh, and just so I don't feel left out: My degree is in Business Intelligence and Data Analytics.  AND I've published half a dozen plus medical research articles (co-authored with clinicians), including on injury prevention and Gun Violence.

[carmiedisco12]

First of all, we're all the same race: humans. That so many still speaks of different races is a sign of ignorance or lack of education.

Theese protests have had a great impact, even in my little corner of the world. Lots of people coming out with racism-stories. Seems like most non-blenda white have experienced some sort of discrimination.

To argue that BLM shouldn't protest over one episode, because statistics aays this and that, is like saying we shouldn't care for standing up against coal pollution if we don't stand up against oil production, and then again we must stand up against the forest industry and so it goes on and on...

In many ways i do not entirely disagree with you but I would refer you to this portion of what i said, specifically the portion in brackets. Yes many good by-products but if the basis of the foundation or the protest may be at least partially inaccurate then that doesn't bother you? i guess a large part of my point is that it seems to be exclusively about BLM. I'm all for worldwide discussions and peaceful protests about genuine equality. But to my mind this isn't it. Again just one mans view
If the by products to the protests are positive that's awesome. But I was questioning the facts behind it, the virtue signaling of many of the protestors and the apparent disregard for the health of the communities elderly and infirmed which to me at least implies the protestors don't genuinely care so much about life and well being as winning an ideological argument.


But the facts do not appear to back up the premise behind the worldwide protests (if it's about American Police on black community violence rather than a more generic call for racial equality. In which case the acronym BLM should be canned for an all encompassing ALM approach)

I'm not in the fray, but the larger problem here is the statistics you're citing are also racially biased and influenced.  I'll give you a couple examples of why that is.

In the suburbs, two white teens get into a fist fight on a basketball court.  Cops show up, break the fight up, cool them down, and then basically let them go (maybe with a pop in and conversation with the kids parents).

That happens between two black teens in the inner city, and both kids end up in the system...and it's recorded as "black on black" crime.

A white teen gets pulled over for a routine traffic stop and is found with 3 or 4 oz of weed on them.  That teen MIGHT see the system, but is usually issued a citation, released on their own recog, and never sees jail (or a felony charge).

A black teen in the same situation?  Arrested and charged with a felony (intent to sell) and is in the system.

Crime statistics/rates nationwide back this up.

You're basing your position on flawed and racially influenced data.

I'm not going to perpetuate the discussion beyond this post.  But if you are as data drive as you say, I'd suggest you need to dive a LOT deeper than the surface statistics you're using.

Oh, and just so I don't feel left out: My degree is in Business Intelligence and Data Analytics.  AND I've published half a dozen medical research articles (in partnership with clinicians), including on injury prevention and Gun Violence.

Appreciate your intelligent and well thought out reply. I was careful to admit I am not the font of all wisdom and am smart enough to know how little I know. However the link I posted is the only detailed analysis on the topic I could find (done by a black man btw)

So If you or anyone else has a detailed analysis I'm more than open to contrary views rather than the anecdotal style you ofefred.

Anyway i'm done on this topic.

[pilferk]

Appreciate your intelligent and well thought out reply. I was careful to admit I am not the font of all wisdom and am smart enough to know how little I know. However the link I posted is the only detailed analysis on the topic I could find (done by a black man btw)

So If you or anyone else has a detailed analysis I'm more than open to contrary views rather than the anecdotal style you ofefred.

Anyway i'm done on this topic.

You can start here and then wind your way down the rabbit hole (the article cites actual scholarly research):

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01846-z

Unfortunately, I'm about to embark on a thesis shortly.  I don't have a lot of time to be a research coordinator on the topic.  Suffice to say that most academics will tell you the surface data we have on this topic isn't well informed, is racially biased, and isn't very compelling.

We've seen a number of recent studies that are showing this to be true, and more recent studies, taking that into consideration (and engaging in their own data collection processes), are showing a much more disturbing picture of black and brown interactions with law enforcement....ESPECIALLY in urban environments.

And with that, I, too, am done with this topic.  This topic/thread (aka GnR Social Media posts) especially, isn't really the place to have this discussion, IMHO...and I'm not sure this forum (aka HTGTH) is even the right one to have it, either.  And I, a white child of the suburbs, am certainly not the one to best engage/champion any position in it.

[carmiedisco12]

Appreciate your intelligent and well thought out reply. I was careful to admit I am not the font of all wisdom and am smart enough to know how little I know. However the link I posted is the only detailed analysis on the topic I could find (done by a black man btw)

So If you or anyone else has a detailed analysis I'm more than open to contrary views rather than the anecdotal style you ofefred.

Anyway i'm done on this topic.

You can start here and then wind your way down the rabbit hole (the article cites actual scholarly research):

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01846-z

Unfortunately, I'm about to embark on a thesis shortly.  I don't have a lot of time to be a research coordinator on the topic.  Suffice to say that most academics will tell you the surface data we have on this topic isn't well informed, is racially biased, and isn't very compelling.

We've seen a number of recent studies that are showing this to be true, and more recent studies, taking that into consideration (and engaging in their own data collection processes), are showing a much more disturbing picture of black and brown interactions with law enforcement....ESPECIALLY in urban environments.

And with that, I, too, am done with this topic.  This topic, especially, isn't really the place to have this discussion...and I'm not sure this forum is even the right one to have it, either.  And I, a white child of the suburbs, am certainly not the one to best engage/champion any position in it.

Thanks. I could refute a few or your prior arguments but you are busy and this is a GNR board, specifically about being white in a small town means you won't get arrested but even if true this does not relate to the stats i discussed . As a white kid from a small town I find that hard to jive with my experience of violence and cops in a small town....but anyway that's hardly a scientific sample.. I think you have confused stats on violent crimes vs deaths with arrests for minor possession related events but it's late here in Australia and my focus is poor so shall move ion
Very much appreciate the link and as they say......I'll have a look at yours if you have a look/listen to mine

As you said it is a rabbit hole that will not easily offer a completely irrefutable outcome


https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w8daOAobjw