What is it people fail to understand about Chinese Democracy?

[jacdaniel]

fanboy: Axl is the best, this album is the best, everyone else is wrong and axl ios ALWAYS right, stupid slash, and duff, they are the reasons the band broke up, axl really wants to tour, promote, and release music, but its everyone else that is holding him back, poor Axl, the world wanted him to fail, everyone is against him, blah, blah, blah

HAHA!    Coming to think of it, I have heard all that before.

Just because you look at all the facts and then decide that his version of the events are way more plausible than anybody else's

More than 1 or 2 people have had similar stories about Axl though.  Its like "Who wants to be a millionaire", when you ask the audience, you go with the majority and they're right 95% of the time.

A fan can't say it's the greatest album?

Why not?

Please explain....

You can say its a great album, but i think it upsets people when others use words like "miracle", "masterpiece", "greatest band ever".  Stuff like that is a little extreme until you actually have the fanbase and hits etc to back it all up.  

[jarmo]

More than 1 or 2 people have had similar stories about Axl though.  Its like "Who wants to be a millionaire", when you ask the audience, you go with the majority and they're right 95% of the time.

So? You can have 50 people agreeing on something and you still think the other guy is right.

This works in many areas of life.

If you're in court and you have 50 unreliable witnesses against one reliable one. Do you think the judge will go with the unreliable ones just because there's more of them?

"No your honor, I don't remember what happened but this is what I wish had happened......".

You can say its a great album, but i think it upsets people when others use words like "miracle", "masterpiece", "greatest band ever".  Stuff like that is a little extreme until you actually have the fanbase and hits etc to back it all up.  

People were also upset when they were told that, no matter how often they said it would never be out, it be released.


I guess Britney Spears fans are allowed to call her albums masterpieces and classics then, but not GN'R fans. Interesting.





/jarmo

[jemin]

Why the fuck would you even speak about my wife.  What the fuck is wrong with you?  That is the stupidest fucking thing to fucking say and has no bearing on the conversation whatsoever.  Next time you speak keep any mentions of my wife out of your mouth.

Just to try to show you how fucking stupid your point is!

It has a lot to do with what you say. It's an analogy.

So since you keep asking that about CD, why not take that same theme a bit further?

Would you love pepperoni pizza if it was a ham pizza?

 

Yeah real cool way trying to get your point across, bring my family into a discussion about GNR.  Like I said what the fuck is the matter with you.  Any respect I had for you as a person is gone.

I never said that my opinion was even right.  Read back a few posts explaining the opinions and assholes.  Admit (not you personally but some should) that the main reason that you (fanboys not you personally) think it's great is because it's Axl.

Are we talking about AFD, UYI or what now?

There you go being a jackass again.  I'm not trying to prove/discredit anything.  I never said they weren't that good.  All of them being great is quite a stretch, again,  in my opinion.  I never said that everyone else had to share the same opinion as me.  What the fuck are you babbling about.

Insults....

You were the one who got all upset and wanted us to admit that we don't like the album itself, we only like Axl.

That's fucking stupid. Because no one has ever made that same kind of "accusations" about the old albums. Wonder why.

Why don't you admit that the opposite is possible? A lot more people might hate it because it's Axl!

You twist everything I say, just because I don't agree with you/that it's the greatest thing ever/recently.

I didn't say everyone here only likes it because it's Axl, but there is that extreme faction here that can be lumped into that category.  If you aren't one of those people then you shouldn't have a problem with that.  I suppose I should have been clearer.

I do agree that there are some that hate it because it is Axl.  That wasn't part of what I was saying though.  Either way if you love/hate it just because it's Axl it is a fanboyish. 

The premise of the original post was that CD was the one of the best if not the best album recently and was wondering why everyone else besides us (you) ignored it.  My point being is that maybe it's not as good as everyone here makes it out to be.  Maybe it just is a good album and not the best.

And I said, maybe it is the best for some. They're entitled to their opinion.

Maybe people actually prefer the songs on the album compared to what's on the radio!



Another thing. Is it bad to like bands for what makes them stand out?

For example, if you remove Axl from the band equation, GN'R loses one thing that makes them stand out.

So your whole "would you love it without Axl on it?" thing is a way to generalize. It's like, if all the bands were the same and made the same kind of music, would you love this band compared to that band....

But they're not. And Axl is a big reason for GN'R's success, whether you like it or not.

Just like some are more prone to watch a movie starring their favorite actor, obviously music fans are more interested in hearing a new album by their favorite artists than somebody they don't care about. Is that bad? It that being a fanboy?

I never said Axl wasn't a huge part of GNR's success.  That wasn't even part of the discussion.  Without Axl's voice on Appetite and then especially KOHD from the Live At The Ritz I would have never started following them and wouldn't have become a fan.

A fanboy would never admit something negative about their favorite actor/musician/team/artist/whatever.  There is no wrongdoing in the fanboys eyes.

A very good album!!!!!

Awesome. A very good album that you would think the same of if it was made by anyone because you're not one of those fanboys! Hell yeah!






/jarmo

So you're saying that if anyone else had made this record you wouldn't think the same of it?  Am I correct in assuming that?

[jemin]

A fan can't say it's the greatest album?

Why not?

Please explain....


Funny how those who are on "Axl's side" are "fanboys". Just because you look at all the facts and then decide that his version of the events are way more plausible than anybody else's. Nice try to ridicule us.




/jarmo

They can.  Doesn't mean they are right but you know, again, opinions and assholes!

Why is there even a fucking side?  If you like Axl that's cool.  I like him.  I'm not trashing him.  I didn't say anyone that likes him is a fanboy.  What events are we talking about now?  I thought this was about CD.

Edit: Nevermind I see what you were getting at.

[jemin]

fanboy: Axl is the best, this album is the best, everyone else is wrong and axl ios ALWAYS right, stupid slash, and duff, they are the reasons the band broke up, axl really wants to tour, promote, and release music, but its everyone else that is holding him back, poor Axl, the world wanted him to fail, everyone is against him, blah, blah, blah

Fan:  this is a realy good album by Axl rose and his current lione up.  The way it is being marketed is terrible.  I am sure there are many factors, that lead to the lack of news, videos, singles, tours, etc, but Axl is ONE OF THEM TOO!  I love the guy, but he can be a stupid prick sometimes! He along with the rest of the original line up ALL share blame in the break up.

You see, I can be a fan, and still see the reality of things. 

This ^

[jemin]

More than 1 or 2 people have had similar stories about Axl though.  Its like "Who wants to be a millionaire", when you ask the audience, you go with the majority and they're right 95% of the time.

So? You can have 50 people agreeing on something and you still think the other guy is right.

This works in many areas of life.

If you're in court and you have 50 unreliable witnesses against one reliable one. Do you think the judge will go with the unreliable ones just because there's more of them?

"No your honor, I don't remember what happened but this is what I wish had happened......".

You can say its a great album, but i think it upsets people when others use words like "miracle", "masterpiece", "greatest band ever".  Stuff like that is a little extreme until you actually have the fanbase and hits etc to back it all up.  

People were also upset when they were told that, no matter how often they said it would never be out, it be released.


I guess Britney Spears fans are allowed to call her albums masterpieces and classics then, but not GN'R fans. Interesting.





/jarmo

Those people should have to stand in front of the firing squad! 

[D]

Jemin

he wasn't insulting you or your wife.


Of course we love CD cause it is Axl Rose. If you had Chinese Democracy as interpreted by Good Charlotte, I don't think many here would care for it that much

[jacdaniel]

I guess Britney Spears fans are allowed to call her albums masterpieces and classics then, but not GN'R fans. Interesting.

IMO, only an album that has stood the test of time and still sells quite well presently, can be called a masterpiece.  An album that united interest from all kinds of fan's at a particular time.

Not many albums fit that category.

[ppbebe]

If it's just because it's Axl and you are a big fan of his then that's fine but say that, instead of making it out to be a masterpiece just because.  I have a feeling that if Vince Neil made this exact same album there wouldn't be this love for it.  Does that make sense?

ok i didn't get the question earlier.obviously you didn't read through the thread. Don't worry I don't read every posts either.

Let me introduce myself i am not just an axl fan but a fan of everyone on cd.
 i became a fan since 2003. I like many bands new and old and i don't really call myself a fan of them as i don't bother learning about the band details like who's in who was in etc. Gnr was one of them till i heard the title song.

So, to answer to your question,
If a band made this album, that would be Guns N Roses by any other name to me.

the brutal sincerity on it. it's the sincerest album ever. musically and lyrically.

But what makes that so special?  There are plenty of albums like that.  That's kind of a generic answer, it seems.

I'm just wondering what makes the sincerity on this album more special than any other one?

Name an album that you consider as a master piece and i don't and try talk me into grasping why it's a masterpiece.
See. You'd end up writing a book and yet I may well never get it..

I don't pretend i get everything about cd. It's a complicated album.
But I think the sincerity, unaffectedness, or earnestness is the key factor.
For instance the diversity luns mentioned.

Any band poses. "We arent emo we are baaadass, a true hard rock/punk/metal" whatever. a hard rock piece should start softly, catchy chorus here and there and then of course here comes a long ass bluesy guitar riff. Yaaaaaawn.

This album however... is it just another rock n roll album?
Is it really? There're some jazz flamenco techno narrations ... some guitar parts are even called as industrial by some. Pinkfloydish queenish zepish Nu-metalish emoish progressive, lounge music, doom metal beats, latain beats......  You name it.

Apparently they mixed anything of any age of any genre that works for the songs into it.


They aren't posing as anything. No Pigeonhole on there but the balls of it. That's very guns n roses to me.

[peter7411226]

If it's just because it's Axl and you are a big fan of his then that's fine but say that, instead of making it out to be a masterpiece just because.  I have a feeling that if Vince Neil made this exact same album there wouldn't be this love for it.  Does that make sense?

ok i didn't get the question earlier.obviously you didn't read through the thread. Don't worry I don't read every posts either.

Let me introduce myself i am not just an axl fan but a fan of everyone on cd.
 i became a fan since 2003. I like many bands new and old and i don't really call myself a fan of them as i don't bother learning about the band details like who's in who was in etc. Gnr was one of them till i heard the title song.

So, to answer to your question,
If a band made this album, that would be Guns N Roses by any other name to me.

the brutal sincerity on it. it's the sincerest album ever. musically and lyrically.

But what makes that so special?  There are plenty of albums like that.  That's kind of a generic answer, it seems.

I'm just wondering what makes the sincerity on this album more special than any other one?

Name an album that you consider as a master piece and i don't and try talk me into grasping why it's a masterpiece.
See. You'd end up writing a book and yet I may well never get it..

I don't pretend i get everything about cd. It's a complicated album.
But I think the sincerity, unaffectedness, or earnestness is the key factor.
For instance the diversity luns mentioned.

Any band poses. "We arent emo we are baaadass, a true hard rock/punk/metal" whatever. a hard rock piece should start softly, catchy chorus here and there and then of course here comes a long ass bluesy guitar riff. Yaaaaaawn.

This album however... is it just another rock n roll album?
Is it really? There're some jazz flamenco techno narrations ... some guitar parts are even called as industrial by some. Pinkfloydish queenish zepish Nu-metalish emoish progressive, lounge music, doom metal beats, latain beats......  You name it.

Apparently they mixed anything of any age of any genre that works for the songs into it.


They aren't posing as anything. No Pigeonhole on there but the balls of it. That's very guns n roses to me.

Got a question though:  You say you became a fan around 2003 right? What GNR music got you to become a fan? I saw you yawn at the long ass bluesy riffs ( which is an obvious rip on old GNR). CD wasnt realeased in 2003. So im wondering what music hooked you into becoming a fan?
The illegal leaks? According to some on this board real Axl fans didnt download them.

[ppbebe]

chinese democracy live. It was a good omen.  and no it wasn't a dig at old gnr.

[Jim Bob]

fanboy: Axl is the best, this album is the best, everyone else is wrong and axl ios ALWAYS right, stupid slash, and duff, they are the reasons the band broke up, axl really wants to tour, promote, and release music, but its everyone else that is holding him back, poor Axl, the world wanted him to fail, everyone is against him, blah, blah, blah

Fan:  this is a realy good album by Axl rose and his current lione up.  The way it is being marketed is terrible.  I am sure there are many factors, that lead to the lack of news, videos, singles, tours, etc, but Axl is ONE OF THEM TOO!  I love the guy, but he can be a stupid prick sometimes! He along with the rest of the original line up ALL share blame in the break up.

You see, I can be a fan, and still see the reality of things. 

This ^

is one of the most ridiculous things ever posted here.   just because this might be a fan's favorite album doesn't make them a fanboy.    Its my favorite and I'm far from a fanboy.

[freddiebrph]

fanboy: Axl is the best, this album is the best, everyone else is wrong and axl ios ALWAYS right, stupid slash, and duff, they are the reasons the band broke up, axl really wants to tour, promote, and release music, but its everyone else that is holding him back, poor Axl, the world wanted him to fail, everyone is against him, blah, blah, blah

Fan:  this is a realy good album by Axl rose and his current lione up.  The way it is being marketed is terrible.  I am sure there are many factors, that lead to the lack of news, videos, singles, tours, etc, but Axl is ONE OF THEM TOO!  I love the guy, but he can be a stupid prick sometimes! He along with the rest of the original line up ALL share blame in the break up.

You see, I can be a fan, and still see the reality of things. 

This ^

is one of the most ridiculous things ever posted here.   just because this might be a fan's favorite album doesn't make them a fanboy.    Its my favorite and I'm far from a fanboy.

i agree with you as well. Any fan can have their favorite album. some say uyi is their favorite, others CD.  its their opinion.  It can be the fans favorite album and also be the worst marketed album ever. and yes, Axl is partly to blame. A fanboy gets all defensive right about now, and goes into a tirade about me being an axl hater, and wanting him to fail, and all the other stuff we have heard for the past 15 years. 

[jemin]

fanboy: Axl is the best, this album is the best, everyone else is wrong and axl ios ALWAYS right, stupid slash, and duff, they are the reasons the band broke up, axl really wants to tour, promote, and release music, but its everyone else that is holding him back, poor Axl, the world wanted him to fail, everyone is against him, blah, blah, blah

Fan:  this is a realy good album by Axl rose and his current lione up.  The way it is being marketed is terrible.  I am sure there are many factors, that lead to the lack of news, videos, singles, tours, etc, but Axl is ONE OF THEM TOO!  I love the guy, but he can be a stupid prick sometimes! He along with the rest of the original line up ALL share blame in the break up.

You see, I can be a fan, and still see the reality of things. 

This ^

is one of the most ridiculous things ever posted here.   just because this might be a fan's favorite album doesn't make them a fanboy.    Its my favorite and I'm far from a fanboy.

No it's not, you chose to ignore the rest.  I didn't say that this couldn't be a fans favorite album.  Read the bolded statements again.  That's the dif between a fanboy and a fan.

[jemin]

Jemin

he wasn't insulting you or your wife.


Of course we love CD cause it is Axl Rose. If you had Chinese Democracy as interpreted by Good Charlotte, I don't think many here would care for it that much

Doesn't matter if I took it as an insult or not.  My family wasn't being discussed so they shouldn't have been brought up.

As to the second part, that's my point.

[jarmo]

Yeah real cool way trying to get your point across, bring my family into a discussion about GNR.  Like I said what the fuck is the matter with you.  Any respect I had for you as a person is gone.

Boohoo.

It's called an analogy.

Since you failed to answer the question, maybe you realize your whole idea of "if..." is stupid.

As I've said earlier, the idea doesn't work too well with this album since nobody has made a similar album. Maye you'd be better of asking on some American Idol forums. "Would you like this album is last year's winner had made it?" etc.

You twist everything I say, just because I don't agree with you/that it's the greatest thing ever/recently.

No need to twist anything. Stupid is stupid no matter how you look at it. 

I didn't say everyone here only likes it because it's Axl, but there is that extreme faction here that can be lumped into that category.  If you aren't one of those people then you shouldn't have a problem with that.  I suppose I should have been clearer.

The "extreme faction"?

So basically you have a problem with the fact that GN'R fans think the album is great/classic/awesome just because they're GN'R fans?

Rolling Stone gave it 4/5. Did you write the reviewer an angry e-mail telling him he's not allowed to like it too much? 

I do agree that there are some that hate it because it is Axl.  That wasn't part of what I was saying though.  Either way if you love/hate it just because it's Axl it is a fanboyish. 

Yeah, but you didn't say that.

Instead it's "you people only like it because it's Axl".

 

Without Axl's voice on Appetite and then especially KOHD from the Live At The Ritz I would have never started following them and wouldn't have become a fan.

Would you have loved that album and/or cover even without Axl/GN'R?

If you say "yes", then good for you. If you say "no", doesn't it basically make you a "fanboy"? 

A fanboy would never admit something negative about their favorite actor/musician/team/artist/whatever.  There is no wrongdoing in the fanboys eyes.

And why is that a problem on a fan site?

I really want to know.

Why is it ok to bash your favorite artists/bands, but if you're the opposite, it's such a horrible thing? What's wrong? Afraid the other people online will laugh at you if they think you're a "fanboy"?

So you're saying that if anyone else had made this record you wouldn't think the same of it?  Am I correct in assuming that?

So in your hypothetical world, you're saying somebody else would be able to clone Axl, produce this exact same record and it would sound just like the album we all have?

Would I like it? Yeah. Because then the cloned Axl and the cloned band were exactly what GN'R is. I would like them for the same reasons I like GN'R!



But since that's not currently a viable option/worry, I'll just enjoy the awesome GN'R album Axl and the band recorded. 



/jarmo

[D]

fanboy: Axl is the best, this album is the best, everyone else is wrong and axl ios ALWAYS right, stupid slash, and duff, they are the reasons the band broke up, axl really wants to tour, promote, and release music, but its everyone else that is holding him back, poor Axl, the world wanted him to fail, everyone is against him, blah, blah, blah

Fan:  this is a realy good album by Axl rose and his current lione up.  The way it is being marketed is terrible.  I am sure there are many factors, that lead to the lack of news, videos, singles, tours, etc, but Axl is ONE OF THEM TOO!  I love the guy, but he can be a stupid prick sometimes! He along with the rest of the original line up ALL share blame in the break up.

You see, I can be a fan, and still see the reality of things. 

This ^

is one of the most ridiculous things ever posted here.   just because this might be a fan's favorite album doesn't make them a fanboy.    Its my favorite and I'm far from a fanboy.

 

And i hate Bon Jovi

[jemin]

If it's just because it's Axl and you are a big fan of his then that's fine but say that, instead of making it out to be a masterpiece just because.  I have a feeling that if Vince Neil made this exact same album there wouldn't be this love for it.  Does that make sense?

ok i didn't get the question earlier.obviously you didn't read through the thread. Don't worry I don't read every posts either.

Let me introduce myself i am not just an axl fan but a fan of everyone on cd.
 i became a fan since 2003. I like many bands new and old and i don't really call myself a fan of them as i don't bother learning about the band details like who's in who was in etc. Gnr was one of them till i heard the title song.

So, to answer to your question,
If a band made this album, that would be Guns N Roses by any other name to me.

See you would still like this album then regardless of who made it.  I'm just not sure all the fans would, I believe some follow blindly, not all but some.

the brutal sincerity on it. it's the sincerest album ever. musically and lyrically.

But what makes that so special?  There are plenty of albums like that.  That's kind of a generic answer, it seems.

I'm just wondering what makes the sincerity on this album more special than any other one?

Name an album that you consider as a master piece and i don't and try talk me into grasping why it's a masterpiece.
See. You'd end up writing a book and yet I may well never get it..

I don't pretend i get everything about cd. It's a complicated album.
But I think the sincerity, unaffectedness, or earnestness is the key factor.
For instance the diversity luns mentioned.

Any band poses. "We arent emo we are baaadass, a true hard rock/punk/metal" whatever. a hard rock piece should start softly, catchy chorus here and there and then of course here comes a long ass bluesy guitar riff. Yaaaaaawn.

This album however... is it just another rock n roll album?
Is it really? There're some jazz flamenco techno narrations ... some guitar parts are even called as industrial by some. Pinkfloydish queenish zepish Nu-metalish emoish progressive, lounge music, doom metal beats, latain beats......  You name it.

Apparently they mixed anything of any age of any genre that works for the songs into it.


They aren't posing as anything. No Pigeonhole on there but the balls of it. That's very guns n roses to me.

Cool.  I can respect that.  It wasn't just another "because it's Axl and it's GNR and they are teh awesome" kind of response.  I like most of those same things about the songs that I really dig off the album.

Anyway it's all subjective.  So I digress, I have my opinion and everyone else has theirs.  Mine is not right for anyone else and no one else's is right for me.

[peter7411226]

There are some people on this board who feel that by criticizing we are not fans. Let me address that. My band has fans. Do I care what they think of our music. Absolutely. Am I naive to think they will like everything we put out? No. Do I expect criticism of my music. Absolutely , in fact I welcome it. I feed from it in fact. Criticism can be a good thing. I dont want people around me telling me that the sun shines out of my ass. Its not healthy. People like that have always made me uncomfortable. Its not healthy to surround yourself with YES people either. Look where it got Michael Jackson. Critique is healthy. Doesnt not make you a fan.
That said. I like CD. Is it my favorite album by them? No. Doesnt make me any less of a fan. In fact im sure ive seen them more times than most members on this board.

[younggunner]

The problem is not so much is the music but the whole situation. You cannot force people to love CD and you cant denounce someone who favors a CD over lets say AFD.

The problem stems from the inability of Axl to get his shit together and getting himself and the gnr band out there. The stop and go stuff has put a strangle hold on the new era of GNR. The lineup changes have only added to the myth that it is impossible to work with Axl. It is difficult for the most die hard of GNR fans to name who is in the band at this time. How can you expect the avg rock fan to know this band? What is worse is that you keep asking the die hard and the avg fan to accept a different version of gnr time in and time out. That is insane. And almost impossible. Which is why continuity was vital for this to work.  Perception is everything.

Which is why Axl has failed in regards to rebuilding GNR. Again, musically his intentions and final product were great. If his goal all along was to just release music under the gnr name then I would take back what Im saying. But I do not think Axl had planned for all of this. Its ashame because Axl has the album and HAD  the band to make this all work.

From day 1, Axl, the new band, and the album was going to be the underdog because of the circumstanes. For the music to get its day in the sun Axl and the band would have to hit the ground hard and running. He has failed miserably in that regard.  We can only hope that he is motivated and has the resources and support to release future albums. If he does then its all good. I just dont want to see Axl burn all his bridges personally and professionally....life is way too short