What is it people fail to understand about Chinese Democracy?

[fear the juggalo 2]

i think if it was another band that put this out it would be praised, but because it's gnr  it gets looked at under a microscope.

[King Axl]

What is it people fail to understand about Chinese Democracy?


That it being marketed horribly was the reason it failed.

There's probably a whole lot more to it than that. People can't keep blaming Best Buy. They did their part by putting it in their stores. There were TV ads, plus teasers in the Sunday circulars leading up to the release. It was in the front of the store, and at every checkout, on November 23rd.

What most of us didn't realize, those of us who visit and post on the fanboards such as this one....is that most of the world doesn't care about Guns N' Roses anymore. Officially, fifteen years (1993-2008) passed without a new Guns N' Roses album (I'm not including Live Era and Greatest Hits). Instead of growing up on new GN'R material, kids like my own grew up on stuff like Green Day, The Offspring, Metallica, Nickelback, AFI, etc. Some of those bands were mere overnight sensations only to disappear just as quickly, but some have maintained a presence in the music world, most notably Green Day, who perhaps are the world's most popular band at this point in time.

To complicate matters, there will always be a core group of people who will insist that without Slash, there really is not a real version of Guns N' Roses out there. Having gone through my late teen years during the 'Appetite' era, I have a tendency to lean towards this line of thinking. I don't take anything away from Axl's efforts on the Chinese Democracy album--it does sound like something that could have been a natural maturation process from the original five. However, take away those of us who have either accepted or tried to accept GN'R 2K, and you'll find a lot more who simply won't accept a Guns N' Roses with Axl as the last original member. Releasing Chinese Democracy under a new band name perhaps could have improved sales, because many feel it's blasphemy for Axl to continue calling this current lineup Guns N' Roses.

One more point, though there's probably a hundred more points that could be addressed-- when a highly anticipated album is ready to hit, there needs to be a tour ready to go, period. The 2006 tour was probably conducted to make enough money to complete the recording of the album (if, in fact, the record label had stopped funding it by then). I believed Axl at the end of the Worcester, MA show on November 8, 2006, when he told the audience he hoped to see us again "real soon". I personally felt like finally, a new chapter in GN'R history begins. Nearly three years later, and a full seven months since the release of Chinese Democracy, tour plans are fully stuck in neutral. If you want to win over new fans, you've got to be out there touring to promote your record. Not only has this not happened, it remains unclear who will be part of the band if a tour ever does take place. The notes inside the Chinese Democracy CD booklet do little to clarify this--it informs of us of who worked on what songs, but doesn't give you the feeling like this is a tight, cohesive unit. And of course, with Finck out, his replacement is a guy I had never heard of and someone who had nothing to do with the making of the CD.

[jemin]

i think if it was another band that put this out it would be praised, but because it's gnr  it gets looked at under a microscope.

I respectfully disagree on both counts.  The only ones that seem to be looking at it under the microscope is here in the forums, the good and the bad.

[fear the juggalo 2]

i honestly think that only time will tell how this album holds up. i hear knew bands on the radio & they get praised. for example kings of leon. if guns put out that kings of leon album, they would have gotten shit on by fans & media. if kol put out chinese democracy it would have been called a masterpiece. i do believe that.

[D]

CD got 4 stars in Rolling Stone. That is pretty damn great. So I don't think the reviews hurt it as most of the big publications liked it.

Basically lack of promo and bad singles is the reason

[russtcb]

CD got 4 stars in Rolling Stone. That is pretty damn great. So I don't think the reviews hurt it as most of the big publications liked it.

Basically lack of promo and bad singles is the reason

I can't imagine why people argue otherwise.

[jarmo]

That right there is the key.  If this exact same album, lyrics, music, et al, were made by anyone else, I don't think the love for the album would be there.  Which is ok but fanboys/girls should just be honest.

What a weird fucking thing to say. Nobody else could've made that album. Period.


You don't seem to have a lot of respect for GN'R these days if you think anybody could've made that album. Maybe Pretty Boy Floyd could've made Appetite and Winger could've released the Illusion albums?



Your fanboy/fangirl comment is also lame as hell. Where do you think you are?

It's a fucking fan site. We're not supposed to hate GN'R!




/jarmo

[jemin]

That right there is the key.  If this exact same album, lyrics, music, et al, were made by anyone else, I don't think the love for the album would be there.  Which is ok but fanboys/girls should just be honest.

What a weird fucking thing to say. Nobody else could've made that album. Period.


You don't seem to have a lot of respect for GN'R these days if you think anybody could've made that album. Maybe Pretty Boy Floyd could've made Appetite and Winger could've released the Illusion albums?



Your fanboy/fangirl comment is also lame as hell. Where do you think you are?

It's a fucking fan site. We're not supposed to hate GN'R!




/jarmo

Of course I knew you would turn it all around.  I didn't say anyone else could have, I said if that were the case.  You know hypotheticals?  Would you still love it?

There is a difference between fanboys and fans.  You know it.  Don't play stupid.

[fear the juggalo 2]

do you agree jemin? if kings of leon put out cd it would be called brilliant ..etc....etc? if gnr put there album out everyone would have shit on it. every radio station swallows kol, while they all dismissed cd. i dont think im a fanboy, i try to listen to all sides with a open ear. but i did name my son axl. ohh well. ha,ha.

[Voodoochild]

I love the instrumental in this band, always did. I wouldn't buy it only for Axl - if I didn't like it, I wouldn't at all.

i think if it was another band that put this out it would be praised

Agreed. That's the prejudice thing I've been saying too.

[jemin]

do you agree jemin? if kings of leon put out cd it would be called brilliant ..etc....etc? if gnr put there album out everyone would have shit on it. every radio station swallows kol, while they all dismissed cd. i dont think im a fanboy, i try to listen to all sides with a open ear. but i did name my son axl. ohh well. ha,ha.

You named your son Axl?  Fucking sweet!  I tried, my woman was having none of it.

As for the Kings of Leon, couldn't tell you, don't think I have ever heard them.  lol  I understand what you mean though.  I still think it would be the same.   

For me there is something missing and I don't mean ex members.  It's missing that punch, that knock out blow that really takes away from being a great album.  There's 7 really great songs and then theres 7 good songs.  If 4 of those good songs were great then I would agree this is a masterpiece peope are missing out on if they don't have it.

I will concede to the fact that if this album had been a debut album or sophmore album from some band then it would garner much more respect.

Edited to add:  Of course this all just opinion on my part and you know what they say about opinions.  In case you don't the saying goes:  "Opinions are like assholes and everyone elses stinks"  lol

[norway]

I'm a big fan of Axl, absolutely love his voice, but I agree this wasn't the best music he has appeared in, overall.
Some very catchy tunes here and there of course.

Soundwise it hasn't been so much focus on the strenght of his voice, fair expectation.

This is a much more intresting band than the old, classic-rock line-ups tho.

I love the instrumental in this band, always did. I wouldn't buy it only for Axl - if I didn't like it, I wouldn't at all.

Guitar-geek!!

[jarmo]

I said if that were the case.  You know hypotheticals?  Would you still love it?

But that can be said about any album.

What kind of thinking is that?

Would you love this album if it was made by somebody else? When nobody else could've made it.

Well, maybe certain pop albums where they just look for a person who can dance and then autotune the vocals..... But talking about real bands and artists.



Would people love Thriller if somebody else had made it? The whole way of thinking is weird to me. We're talking about art, not something mass manufactured.

There is a difference between fanboys and fans.  You know it.  Don't play stupid.

Yeah, some fans think they're "objective journalists" and have to find faults in everything not to appear "fanboyish".





/jarmo

[jemin]

I'm talking about the exact same way this album was made.  No changes whatsoever.  I know you understand exactly what I am saying but feel the need to protect the album/artist.  I am not saying it's a shitty album, I'm saying it's a good album.  But for the people who think it's a masterpiece.........

My point is, is that it is beloved by the fans and fanboys here because it is Axl/GNR.  That's fine, but admit it.  Don't try and make it out to be a masterpiece when it's just a good album (in my opinion) just because it's Axl. 

And Thriller is a classic, but I believe that everyone would have loved it regardless as long as it was the exact same song/lyrics/music/more importantly video!

A fan is someone who supports and follows whoever/whatever it is they like.  Fanboys are totally biased and see no wrong in anything whoever/whatever they are following is doing.  Axl could shit on a piece of bread and tell a fanboy that it was a philly cheesesteak, they would eat it and tell you it was the best tasting sandwich ever.

[D]

Well, what stands out to me is

When Buckethead was in the band, he was the greatest thing since sliced bread. now he is gone, maybe 10 percent of the GNR fanbase give a shit about him now, same with Robin etc

Im not gonna lie

I am an Axl Rose fan. he could get onstage with whoever and it wouldn't really matter either way to me. if the band were more active, I could get a better connection with the new guys. Essentially the new guys are affected by this way more than Axl. They put their careers and reputation on the line cause they believed in Axl and now they aren't getting any recognition for their tremendous work on this album. that is the real shame.

that was my problem with that Billboard/Del James thing. Instead of talking about Slash, he could've been praising his guitar players on how amazing they are.

whats scary about this band is, not only are no Original guitarists still around, but there aren't even any guitarist left from the RIR 3 version of the band. so we are on our 3rd installment of GNR right now.............

[jarmo]

I'm talking about the exact same way this album was made.  No changes whatsoever.  I know you understand exactly what I am saying but feel the need to protect the album/artist. 

I'm not protecting anything.

I just find it weird to think about how somebody else could make other people's album.

Would you love your wife if she was somebody else? Would you love your wife if she was a male wrestler? Are these the kind of things you spend time thinking about?

My point is, is that it is beloved by the fans and fanboys here because it is Axl/GNR.  That's fine, but admit it. 

Same could be said about any GN'R album.

Admit what? Admit that you have your opinion and that in no way is your opinion more right than somebody else's?

Admit that GN'R fans love GN'R albums because they're by GN'R. Wow!

Should I feel guilty for liking albums by my favorite artists?

Don't try and make it out to be a masterpiece when it's just a good album (in my opinion) just because it's Axl. 

What the hell are you going on about?

So just because you don't like it (enough), nobody else can? Seriously? Are you sober?

Just because you're unable to like the album, everybody else just likes it because it's Axl? Nobody else can actually think the songs in themselves are great? Because you decided they're not that good.



As I said, same could be said about all GN'R albums.

What a weird way to try to discredit the album and "prove" your personal preference/opinion is right.

And Thriller is a classic, but I believe that everyone would have loved it regardless as long as it was the exact same song/lyrics/music/more importantly video!

Wonder why nobody else has managed to make that kind of album since!

That's why your whole theory is flawed.

You treat albums made by individuals as some kind of manufactured products that can be reproduced at any time.

Would you love Thriller if it was released by Vanilla Ice? What if Gary Glitter put out Contraband? Would it rock?

A fan is someone who supports and follows whoever/whatever it is they like.  Fanboys are totally biased and see no wrong in anything whoever/whatever they are following is doing.  Axl could shit on a piece of bread and tell a fanboy that it was a philly cheesesteak, they would eat it and tell you it was the best tasting sandwich ever.

Nice analogy just because you can't enjoy the album.

Your loss.




/jarmo

[fear the juggalo 2]

it was like pulling teeth to get him named axl. she named my second son doyle, so i told her if we have another boy im gonna name him axl. when we got the ultra sound & saw the wee-wee she just said, ohh shit! ha,ha. my 1st son is named sebastian. if i ever have a girl i will name her rose. but back to the subject. theres honestly just one song i dont like off the album. if nothing was leaked off cd, would people have different opinions ? the 1st time i heard that leak of better i was blown away. same with the hob 01/01/01 show. when they did the new songs, i wanted cd right then & there. fast forward to now. i think the media didnt look at this as a new cd, because the songs were around for so long. but im happy with cd overall.

[D]

I'm talking about the exact same way this album was made.  No changes whatsoever.  I know you understand exactly what I am saying but feel the need to protect the album/artist.  I am not saying it's a shitty album, I'm saying it's a good album.  But for the people who think it's a masterpiece.........

My point is, is that it is beloved by the fans and fanboys here because it is Axl/GNR.  That's fine, but admit it.  Don't try and make it out to be a masterpiece when it's just a good album (in my opinion) just because it's Axl. 

And Thriller is a classic, but I believe that everyone would have loved it regardless as long as it was the exact same song/lyrics/music/more importantly video!

A fan is someone who supports and follows whoever/whatever it is they like.  Fanboys are totally biased and see no wrong in anything whoever/whatever they are following is doing.  Axl could shit on a piece of bread and tell a fanboy that it was a philly cheesesteak, they would eat it and tell you it was the best tasting sandwich ever.

That is the craziest shit I've ever read.

There wouldn't have been a thriller without MJ cause he wrote Beat It, Billie Jean and a few of the the other smashes on that album.

so NO, without his talent, songwriting, vocal prowess, dancing ability and visionary ability to create those videos etc, that album would have never existed.


That was one of the strangest analogies I think I've read on the internet.

like Jarmo said about the wife thing.......

Axl appeals to me. His vocals,melodies, the way he puts a song together. I love everything about his musical ability so yeah, maybe we do rate something a 10 that the rest of the world may call an 8. but that is why we are posting on a GNR message forum, and other people aren't.

[The Catcher]

I'm talking about the exact same way this album was made.  No changes whatsoever.  I know you understand exactly what I am saying but feel the need to protect the album/artist.  I am not saying it's a shitty album, I'm saying it's a good album.  But for the people who think it's a masterpiece.........

My point is, is that it is beloved by the fans and fanboys here because it is Axl/GNR.  That's fine, but admit it.  Don't try and make it out to be a masterpiece when it's just a good album (in my opinion) just because it's Axl. 

And Thriller is a classic, but I believe that everyone would have loved it regardless as long as it was the exact same song/lyrics/music/more importantly video!

A fan is someone who supports and follows whoever/whatever it is they like.  Fanboys are totally biased and see no wrong in anything whoever/whatever they are following is doing.  Axl could shit on a piece of bread and tell a fanboy that it was a philly cheesesteak, they would eat it and tell you it was the best tasting sandwich ever.

This has got to be one of the most ignorant posts I've ever read. Are you serious? Michael Jackson is the whole reason Thriller is a classic. He wrote the hit songs on it, he had the voice, the moves, the personality, the aura. To think that album could have been created by someone else is utterly ridicilous. Michael Jackson makes Thriller the great album that it is, just like Axl makes Chinese Democracy the great album that it is.

[jemin]

I'm not protecting anything.

I just find it weird to think about how somebody else could make other people's album.

Would you love your wife if she was somebody else? Would you love your wife if she was a male wrestler? Are these the kind of things you spend time thinking about?

Why the fuck would you even speak about my wife.  What the fuck is wrong with you?  That is the stupidest fucking thing to fucking say and has no bearing on the conversation whatsoever.  Next time you speak keep any mentions of my wife out of your mouth.

If someone else had released this record would it still be that great?

Same could be said about any GN'R album.

Admit what? Admit that you have your opinion and that in no way is your opinion more right than somebody else's?

Admit that GN'R fans love GN'R albums because they're by GN'R. Wow!

Should I feel guilty for liking albums by my favorite artists?

I never said that my opinion was even right.  Read back a few posts explaining the opinions and assholes.  Admit (not you personally but some should) that the main reason that you (fanboys not you personally) think it's great is because it's Axl.

What the hell are you going on about?

So just because you don't like it (enough), nobody else can? Seriously? Are you sober?

Just because you're unable to like the album, everybody else just likes it because it's Axl? Nobody else can actually think the songs in themselves are great? Because you decided they're not that good.



As I said, same could be said about all GN'R albums.

What a weird way to try to discredit the album and "prove" your personal preference/opinion is right.

There you go being a jackass again.  I'm not trying to prove/discredit anything.  I never said they weren't that good.  All of them being great is quite a stretch, again,  in my opinion.  I never said that everyone else had to share the same opinion as me.  What the fuck are you babbling about.

The premise of the original post was that CD was the one of the best if not the best album recently and was wondering why everyone else besides us (you) ignored it.  My point being is that maybe it's not as good as everyone here makes it out to be.  Maybe it just is a good album and not the best.

Wonder why nobody else has managed to make that kind of album since!

That's why your whole theory is flawed.

You treat albums made by individuals as some kind of manufactured products that can be reproduced at any time.

Would you love Thriller if it was released by Vanilla Ice? What if Gary Glitter put out Contraband? Would it rock?

If it was the exact same thing then yes.  Now I know realistically that is not possible but hypothetically yes!

Nice analogy just because you can't enjoy the album.

Your loss.




/jarmo

WHO SAID I CAN'T ENJOY THE ALBUM.  WHAT THE FUCK IS THE MATTER WITH YOU.

That CD rarely comes out of my car stereo much to my wifes chagrin.  When it does it's for a short time only.  I enjoy it plenty for what it is.  A very good album!!!!!