What is it people fail to understand about Chinese Democracy?

[peter7411226]

Younggunner's post is filled with I's and assumptions. It's all about what he dreamed up would happen once the album either had a release date and/or was released.

These assumptions, dreams, theories, wishes and so on has been building up in his own mind ever since that day in 2001 (I think that was the year he became a fan) that he decided to call himself a GN'R fan.

Now there's nothing wrong with having dreams or wishes. Most of us have some kinds of dream for the future. Some dream of going on a holiday and others dream of huge promotional campaigns for a record.


People who are fans like the rest of us, are trying to understand what goes into the world of being in a successful rock band.

When you know nothing, how can you go on and on about what should have been done, when and by who? It's just a lot of stuff from people who basically know nothing about the actual business involved.

For example, does it come as a surprise to you that there are people at the record company who do all kinds of jobs? Jobs that will hopefully sell more records for that company. It's not all about the artist.


It's been explained that your fantasy was not meant to be reality ("Our focus was in getting the record deal done while finishing the album, which hit many an unexpected bump or sinkhole in the road right up until the actual release. We never intended a huge public rollout, especially without resolving certain issues, and no one ever suggested us doing so, though Interscope's communications with Best Buy in these areas may not have been as clear as anyone would have preferred.").

But that has been labeled as a "cop out" or as an "excuse".

The truth obviously doesn't interest. It's boring. It's no fun to hear that the release of the album was the focus and all those promotional things you had dreamed of for years weren't.

So, instead of just accepting it, the finger pointing starts. Somebody has to be blamed for your dreams being crushed so brutally! There must be a villain here! It's not your fault!



Axl said that the release of the album was a miracle, but yet here you are still going on and on about your promotional plans/career advice while ignoring that vital nugget of information.....




/jarmo

Jarmo,

As a person in the industry I got to say that alot of the responsibility for selling records falls on the artist. The job of an artist doesnt end when they / we hand in the record. Can you honestly say that if the label put in what has been reported as upwards of 15 mil into an album that this is all that should be expected of it? Its a business. We all make compromises. Nobody likes the business part of the industry but its the way the game is played. It amazes me that people fail to look at the other megabands ( Metallica, U2..etc) as a model on how things should work. They know how to play the game. Maybe they too dont like to play the promotion game. But you know what they know that in order for there band and there art to get the proper recognition that it deserves that they have to get out there and promote. We all know what we're getting into when we sign on the dotted line. When people say that he isnt a sellout like others its an ignorant statement. We all sellout when we sign on the dotted line. Its a business. The more time passes by I, beginning to think that all of this isnt gonna end pretty. I see lawsuits coming soon. Im kind of surprised that they havent started already.

[jacdaniel]

I don't think id ever consider releasing an album a miracle.  Thats a little extreme!  lol

[D]

The label seemed happy to recoup there money and I feel they basically told Axl to fuck off.

Axl probably figures, if the label isn't interested, why should he be. It is sort of a chicken and the egg scenario.

Will Axl Do nothing cause of the labels lack of interest? or will the label do nothing cause of Axl's lack of interest?


I think the label took their money and ran personally. They made their money back so why sink millions more into it for videos etc when they feel fortunate to make a profit on it?


On Gnrevolution, I referenced the Motley Crue book "The Dirt" and how basically they told Motley that until they got Vince back, they wouldn't do anything to promote or back the band. So one has to wonder if the label have washed their hands with Axl and this version of GNR.

I think it is a valid question.

[younggunner]

It's one thing to hope for something, but when you get it explained to you (we never intended to do what you thought we would) and you still go on about it, it just seems like you ignore the facts.

The down playing of the album/promotion started after the release. At no point prior to the release, which was just about a decade, did I see Axl make any kind of substantial statement that down played the release,promotion,etc.

 99.9% of the people here thought that once the album had a release date and was released the typical rock promotion would kick off....yes or no? Was it a pipe dream, selfish assumption, or just  rational fans thinking that Axl would follow what he has done in the oast and what every major rock act does to promote an album?

You want to spin/play it off, thats your choice.

Because you can hold the actual physical and legal release in your hands.

Maybe you can use some of your imagination to think of reason why the release in itself was a miracle?

Again, Axl might characterize the release and the whole process as a miracle but that doesnt necessarily make it one. Like you always point out, we dont know what goes on behind the scenes. Do we know that Axl was 100% cooperative over the past decade?

He CHOSE to keep the gnr name and deal with the bad press and old member lawsuits. Remember, a CHOICE. So it is hard for me to give him too much credit for putting up with all that. He chose to stick it out and deal with all that. At the same time I commend him for sticking it out and carrying out his convictions.

As for business side, I am not privy to anything that went down. Im sure there were some legit obstacles. But again, we are talking about a period that spans just over a decade. Not everything is bad luck. Sometimes your actions/behavior/insecurities create some of the bad luck as well.

It sounds as if CD was rushed out(not the music but the actual release) because of the sudden Best Buy deal. To me that is insane. And that is my point. It seems as if Axl doesnt always stick to a plan. Hence we have this stop n go stuff for a decade.

Does Axl drive a delivery truck in your dreams? Since he seems to do everything else in regards to the record/product.....

Again, Axl is GNR. He wanted that, remember? He is the owner,gm,manager, and player. With that comes...get this....responsibility and accountibility. I will never question or doubt Axls intentions or whatever. I truly think his heart is in the right place. But that doesnt mean the way things have gone down have been great. Being that he is the owner,gm,manager,and main player of GNR all success and blame gets pointed in his direction.

It was not crazy to assume that Axl, the owner,gm,manager,player of gnr, the person who chose to move on from the old and continue with the gnr name, to think that while he was laying low was not only making great music but conjuring up his comeback. In fact, he should have been. And for you to insinuate that he wasnt is down right wrong and insulting. You cant tell me that a person who was on top of the world who then went into hiding, who put up with bs press and lawsuits, did not plan out how he wanted the next phase of his career and band would re enter the market place. Give me a break

By the time CD rolled around he had no guitarists to market the dam thing. Bucket and Robin bailed. Sad but again, some of it comes down to him.

Again, I dont doubt Axls heart. It was and probably still is in the right place. But his actions...or inactions make me think he is just stuck in a rut and really doesnt know how to get this machine moving. And in some sort of weird, fucked up way, I actually think that it adds to his greatness and why I think hes the best...lol

[jacdaniel]

The label seemed happy to recoup there money and I feel they basically told Axl to fuck off.

If thats the case, I doubt we'll be seeing another GNR album under THAT label.

On Gnrevolution, I referenced the Motley Crue book "The Dirt" and how basically they told Motley that until they got Vince back, they wouldn't do anything to promote or back the band. So one has to wonder if the label have washed their hands with Axl and this version of GNR.

I think it is a valid question.

Quite valid, which will no doubt cause some controversy on this site!  

[jacdaniel]

99.9% of the people here thought that once the album had a release date and was released the typical rock promotion would kick off....yes or no?

Your right there.  Don't think anyone expected him to release this thing and then go back into hiding.

[Ali]

On Gnrevolution, I referenced the Motley Crue book "The Dirt" and how basically they told Motley that until they got Vince back, they wouldn't do anything to promote or back the band. So one has to wonder if the label have washed their hands with Axl and this version of GNR.

I think it is a valid question.

If that were true, why would the label continue to fund the record to the tune of $13 million long after both Slash and Duff left?  That doesn't seem like something you do to "wash your hands" of someone.

Ali

[jarmo]

I don't think id ever consider releasing an album a miracle.  Thats a little extreme!  lol

ROFLCOPTER!

You don't even have to know all the details to figure out the fact that it was a rocky road.

Issues with record company, former members, members leaving etc etc.

You want to spin/play it off, thats your choice.

There's no spinning the fact that AFTER you realized your assumptions were wrong, you got an explanation for it.

Again, Axl might characterize the release and the whole process as a miracle but that doesnt necessarily make it one. Like you always point out, we dont know what goes on behind the scenes. Do we know that Axl was 100% cooperative over the past decade?

I would think that he knows the details you and I don't. So like you assume things, I assume that he knows what he's talking about. Unlike you.

So if the guy who's been involved in the project since day one thinks it's a miracle that it was released, it holds a lot more value than some random fan's words. Sorry.

As for business side, I am not privy to anything that went down. Im sure there were some legit obstacles. But again, we are talking about a period that spans just over a decade. Not everything is bad luck. Sometimes your actions/behavior/insecurities create some of the bad luck as well.

I think the "problem" is that you think Axl is making plans for every single detail regarding GN'R all the time.

Maybe he is, but if so, what does the management/record company/booking agents do? If Axl handles everything on his own...

Again, Axl is GNR. He wanted that, remember? He is the owner,gm,manager, and player. With that comes...get this....responsibility and accountibility.

Wrong....

Anyway, he doesn't have to answer to you. The whole "accountability" shit doesn't work.

You're just a fan for God's sake. Not a shareholder!

Get down from the pedestal already.

I will never question or doubt Axls intentions or whatever. I truly think his heart is in the right place. But that doesnt mean the way things have gone down have been great. Being that he is the owner,gm,manager,and main player of GNR all success and blame gets pointed in his direction.

This is the problem. You blame him for shit you know nothing about as well as things that are out of his control.

Not everything is up to him.

You do exactly the same thing the morons, who know nothing, in the media do. Isn't it alarming that you're acting just like them?

It was not crazy to assume that Axl, the owner,gm,manager,player of gnr, the person who chose to move on from the old and continue with the gnr name, to think that while he was laying low was not only making great music but conjuring up his comeback. In fact, he should have been. And for you to insinuate that he wasnt is down right wrong and insulting.

Seriously?

It's insulting to think that Axl was focusing on music, the art itself? And not the business side?

Wow.

No wonder you feel so "upset".

You cant tell me that a person who was on top of the world who then went into hiding, who put up with bs press and lawsuits, did not plan out how he wanted the next phase of his career and band would re enter the market place. Give me a break

And he told you all this when exactly?

Do I think he wanted to put out the album? Yes.
Do I think he wanted to put out videos? Yes.
Do I think he wants to go on Oprah and every other talk show? No.
Do I think he suddenly loves the media because he had all this time to start loving the ones who spread lies about him? No. This is the guy who came and talked to us instead of them....

By the time CD rolled around he had no guitarists to market the dam thing. Bucket and Robin bailed. Sad but again, some of it comes down to him.

What else can you blame on Axl to make your day brighter?

Is it his fault that Buckethead is a person who hasn't been in any other band like GN'R since then? I guess his personality can be blamed on Axl as well.... Maybe the guy just wasn't up to being in a band as big as GN'R? He likes to tour in a van and jam. Fair enough.



If anything is insulting, it's your assumptions.







/jarmo

[ppbebe]

99.9% of the people here thought that once the album had a release date and was released the typical rock promotion would kick off....yes or no?

Your right there.  Don't think anyone expected him to release this thing and then go back into hiding.

hiding?

I didn't think he would visit forums to chat with us ..well I had sorta imagined he might one day but i totally forgot about that as soon as i heard of the release.

why are people here so concerned about the sales?  
I might worry about it for the band as a fan, never for myself. 
It's basically minding others business. i got the album and am loving it.
it's strange to blame the band.

[D]

On Gnrevolution, I referenced the Motley Crue book "The Dirt" and how basically they told Motley that until they got Vince back, they wouldn't do anything to promote or back the band. So one has to wonder if the label have washed their hands with Axl and this version of GNR.

I think it is a valid question.

If that were true, why would the label continue to fund the record to the tune of $13 million long after both Slash and Duff left?  That doesn't seem like something you do to "wash your hands" of someone.

Ali

Didn't they close the books a few years ago and refuse to put anymore money into the album though?

[IKnowWhereIAM]

Some people you just can't reach...

CD is ART, and by nature ART is subjective, and open to misinterpretation...that will explain anything 'on' the CD.  The process by which CD came to be has been explained in fair detail by the man himself, and there really shouldn't be much room for 'failure to understand' that process at this point.  I'll say it again:  I have a great CD to listen to, and will be happy to do so until such time as the band is able to get a tour going, or release more material.

Look at the 'title' - this topic is just going to lure more negativity, and cause more 'explosions' than any 'How are you' Grenade ever would, with the "I don't understand why Axl isn't touring", "I dont understand why this didn't happen"...and would probably be best if it were closed.

[jarmo]

Some people you just can't reach...

CD is ART, and by nature ART is subjective, and open to misinterpretation...that will explain anything 'on' the CD.  The process by which CD came to be has been explained in fair detail by the man himself, and there really shouldn't be much room for 'failure to understand' that process at this point.  I'll say it again:  I have a great CD to listen to, and will be happy to do so until such time as the band is able to get a tour going, or release more material.

Look at the 'title' - this topic is just going to lure more negativity, and cause more 'explosions' than any 'How are you' Grenade ever would, with the "I don't understand why Axl isn't touring", "I dont understand why this didn't happen"...and would probably be best if it were closed.

True.

A lot of "I don't understand why Axl isn't doing what I think he should be doing".





/jarmo

[younggunner]

I would think that he knows the details you and I don't. So like you assume things, I assume that he knows what he's talking about. Unlike you.

So if the guy who's been involved in the project since day one thinks it's a miracle that it was released, it holds a lot more value than some random fan's words. Sorry.

Obviously he knows the details. I also assume he knows what hes talking about. But you assume he is always right and me not so much. Not saying hes flat out lieing or he isnt always right but I do think some of what he says isnt always probably accurate.

I think the "problem" is that you think Axl is making plans for every single detail regarding GN'R all the time.

Maybe he is, but if so, what does the management/record company/booking agents do? If Axl handles everything on his own...

The mgmt teams, booking agents, etc carry out the artists wishes. Axl is at such a level where I highly doubt he takes any orders from anyone. Im pretty sure he calls the shots. Again, this is his gig.

Wrong....

Anyway, he doesn't have to answer to you. The whole "accountability" shit doesn't work.

You're just a fan for God's sake. Not a shareholder!

Get down from the pedestal already.

I wouldnt expect Axl to have to answer to me or anyone on here. What is cool about Axl is that he does care though. Hence, he came here and spoke to his hardcore fans. The guy gets it in that respect.

Seriously?

It's insulting to think that Axl was focusing on music, the art itself? And not the business side?

Wow.

No wonder you feel so "upset".

No, its insulting for you to suggest that Axl cant do more than one thing over a span of ten yrs. Do you honestly think he was locked up in the studio 24/7 over that time?

For you to think that he didnt have any ideas and plans on how he wanted to resurface is insane.

What else can you blame on Axl to make your day brighter?

Is it his fault that Buckethead is a person who hasn't been in any other band like GN'R since then? I guess his personality can be blamed on Axl as well.... Maybe the guy just wasn't up to being in a band as big as GN'R? He likes to tour in a van and jam. Fair enough.



If anything is insulting, it's your assumptions.

Ill give you Buckethead. Im sure the guy is weird and unpredicatble. Someone else is like that as well lol. Robin probably got fed up. An assumption yes, but that is all we have to go on. The album could have been released at various stages over the yrs. Axl decided it wasnt ready. Thats totally his right. But with that comes consequences.

I dont go around blaming Axl. I thoroughly enjoy CD every dam day. Im as happy as can be. I am on a message board answering a question as to why CD has not caught on. Its not that big of a deal. As a fan i couldnt be happier in regards to how the music turned out.

[ppbebe]

and i don't quite understand why those who worry about the promotion or the sales as if it was their own business tend not to request cd songs to radio stations or vote for the band but tend to be in favour of long gone guys or other bands and indifferent to positive news.

[Bitch Slap Rappin]

I like to look at CD as a personal work of art like Pink Floyds- Roger Waters- The Wall with the exception that so far there isn't a tour for it.  

When the Wall came out many fans were dismissing that album as well back than in it's time. (Many people now would consider it not a master piece.) But back than that is what people first thought of it.  I know many of us here don't consider CD a concept album but the way the songs are arranged and produced it gives many listeners that impression.

Hey I can understand why many of us are putting this cd down. Where is the tour? All of us got amp-ed up to go purchase tickets when they would go on sale and have something to look forward to this summer. (It remains to be seen.)

I was even going to go because for me right now there really isn't some group that I can identify with to warrant me to buy a ticket and  go see. I missed out in 2003.

It's almost like going out with a girl for the fifth date and both of us still didn't get to 2nd base!!!  

When all is said and done................Welcome to the Jungle!!!!!

[ppbebe]

I like to look at CD as a personal work of art like Pink Floyds- Roger Waters- The Wall with the exception that so far there isn't a tour for it.  

When the Wall came out many fans were dismissing that album as well back than in it's time. (Many people now would consider it not a master piece.) But back than that is what people first thought of it.  

i don't seem to be really getting what you're implying there. 

[Bitch Slap Rappin]

Well at first many fans couldn't understand what the Wall was about. (I don't know why.)
And the following generation (after 1979-81) many rock listeners did and did not like it.
I guess what I'm trying to convey here is some artists work may be universal and some have a aquired taiste about it.

[ppbebe]

as music is subjective, isn't it still a masterpiece for some with an acquired taste?

[marknroses]

Over the year of the original lineup (1987-1993), there were instances where Axl was not pleased with record industry / management decisions. He has made that pretty clear in his interviews.

The music industry has changed since, probably for the worst. Axl's attitude about the industry has certainly not softened since, let alone it has been hardened to a point where the new album seems to be at a complete standstill. If there's anything that people are failing to understand about the new album, Axl has not done anything to clear it up. Its almost to the point now where Chinese Democracy doesn't even have the full Axl endorsement that prior albums did, even UYI when it first came out (and he later changed his mind about that one). That has in some way impacted how I view the album. Its hard to fully enjoy it when the singer does not want to sing or promote many of the new songs (except the 6 he sang before).

If Axl's goal was also to clear any misconception of his relationship with Stephanie Seymour to her son Dylan, I don't think he really got the point fully across either. I wonder if Dylan even has heard the new album or even cares that it's out (he's got more serious family issues right now to deal with anyways).

[jarmo]

Obviously he knows the details. I also assume he knows what hes talking about. But you assume he is always right and me not so much. Not saying hes flat out lieing or he isnt always right but I do think some of what he says isnt always probably accurate.

The difference is that the reference points change between being a fan and actually being in a multimillion dollar band.

So what might seem weird to you, probably isn't if you have to take into account everything you have to when you are in a band like that.

The mgmt teams, booking agents, etc carry out the artists wishes. Axl is at such a level where I highly doubt he takes any orders from anyone. Im pretty sure he calls the shots. Again, this is his gig.

Did he want Greatest Hits released? Did he really want to do the 2002 tour?

The business is full of egos. Don't fool yourself into thinking they're all there for the artists. They're there to make money!

Everybody wants to have things done their way.

No, its insulting for you to suggest that Axl cant do more than one thing over a span of ten yrs. Do you honestly think he was locked up in the studio 24/7 over that time?

I don't care! He doesn't have to answer to me what he does with his time.

If he was enjoying his life and being happy, that's awesome.

I don't need to see the report cards. I got the music as proof of what he did.

For you to think that he didnt have any ideas and plans on how he wanted to resurface is insane

I don't assume that, because I don't know.

All I know is that he definitely didn't plan some grand comeback like you had envisioned.

Robin probably got fed up. An assumption yes, but that is all we have to go on.

Or maybe he just got a call from Trent regarding a tour and jumped on that ship to see where it would sail?

I dont go around blaming Axl. I thoroughly enjoy CD every dam day. Im as happy as can be. I am on a message board answering a question as to why CD has not caught on. Its not that big of a deal. As a fan i couldnt be happier in regards to how the music turned out.

Your answer to everything is: It's Axl's fault.

And yet we know very little about the why's, how's, when's and what's of what's actually going on.





/jarmo