What is it people fail to understand about Chinese Democracy?

[otgm]

If I want to listen to an album that'll open up the more I listen to it and I know I'll enjoy for years, I'll put on CD.

If I want some "mindless" rock ' roll perfected in the 60s, I can always start iTunes and listen to Izzy sing about boxes or something.


CD is like an exotic hamburger that you're not necessarily used to. Many other albums are like your every day burger. You'll know what you get and that you'll like it because you love burgers. 

/jarmo

If I want to listen to an album that'll open up the more I listen to it that I have enjoyed for years and know I'll enjoy for years to come, I'll put on AFD.

If I want some kewl artsy "rock 'n' roll" perfected in the 90s that Axl copied and released in 2009, I can always put on CD and listen to Axl sing about getting betrayed or something.

I don't eat burgers, maybe that's why I don't completely get CD? 

[mcmurray]

People fail to understand that, without Buckethead, there would be no album.

[fear the juggalo 2]

i'm starting to fail to understand what this thread is about!?! & yes, bucket was a big part of this albums sound. i just heard buckets tribute to mj. beautiful !!!

[jacdaniel]

i'm starting to fail to understand what this thread is about!?!

Me too! lol

if you like the album, cool!   

Just cos the world has not taken to it doesn't mean we need to have reasons why people have failed to understand it.

But if you want them reasons, read over the 30 odd pages and some reasons have been discussed.

[AtariLegend]

If you think alot of people don't know it exists, then you can't say the same people dislike it.

The people to hold the lowest opinions of the album are the re-unionists on Gn'R forums who think Steven Adler wrote "Use Your Illusion" and Slash wrote "Appetite For Destruction".

Serious music critics thought it was pretty good and so did the radio stations when they first played "Better" and "There Was A Time" ect...

Even despite taking a decade to long to release the album, a bit more efficient promotion would've guaranteed it sold better in the major markets.

[AtariLegend]

...And personally I find it pretty lame to see people posting about how bad the guitar playing is on "Better" and "There Was A Time" and how cheesy "This I Love" is, when their favourite band is "Creed". If this album was marketed at anyone, I don't think it's you.

[jarmo]

ah, Jarmo, come on...running out of arguments going personal is poor, you know that very well. and i've just proved you wrong with the last part of the quote above. didnt matter to you being wrong in the 1st place but twisting it in other ways after, eh!

Seeing your posts in the past, it's not that hard to tell that you're not exactly open minded enough to give the album a fair chance.

You can say that you put it there after the album's release all you want. But the truth is, your whining about GN'R didn't start on November 23rd, 2008.



It's been a bunch of complaints to the left and right from you.

No wonder you have complaints about the album too. 





/jarmo

[ppbebe]

I don't eat burgers, maybe that's why I don't completely get CD? 

i don't either. that's not why you don't get it.

Forget about your useless 'considerations' while listening. Those stray thoughts are stopping you from appreciating cd as it is.

[peter7411226]

Lol, of course anyone can say that Chinese Democracy is poor. It's SUBJECTIVE. I just listened to CD for the first time this year and I have listened to it like 5 times now. That's how much I like it. It's a 3/5 star album for me, and I have plenty of those in my collection.

Yeah, I guess it's not easy to listen to when your idea of a 5/5 album is pretty much other people's idea of boring/bland.....


It seems to me like many of the people who think Chinese Democracy is average are fans of a different "kind" music. People who think rock music is basically what you make with drums, bass and guitar.

Or people who never got over the band breaking up..... Or both.


It's amusing to see so many people who obviously hold a grudge against Axl/the band act like they gave the album a fair chance.

For example, there's a poster that goes on and on about the GN'R name and has a personal text saying something like Axl thinks GN'R is his solo project. I find it difficult to take what he says that seriously because he's obviously made up his mind before the album was released.





/jarmo

Yeah ...you kind of nailed what ive been saying on your first point. CD might not be some peoples cup of tea because of the type of music it is. Fans of old GNR may not be fans of the new music. Different sound for the most part. I guess it comes from having different members too.

[jarmo]

CD might not be some peoples cup of tea because of the type of music it is. Fans of old GNR may not be fans of the new music. Different sound for the most part. I guess it comes from having different members too.

I think many people won't allow themselves to like it.





/jarmo

[peter7411226]

Arguments based on the quality of the music (whether you think it's good or bad) are kinda pointless, since that's pretty much a subjective area. There really is no such thing as "good" or "bad" music...

Of course not.

For example, if your idea of a 4 or 5 star album is something released by Izzy Stradlin (because it's the first thing that popped into my mind since his music is something GN'R fans know of and it's the complete opposite of CD) on iTunes, it might explain why you think Chinese Democracy is average.

It's two totally different things.


I wouldn't even compare the two because of that.

If I want to listen to an album that'll open up the more I listen to it and I know I'll enjoy for years, I'll put on CD.

If I want some "mindless" rock ' roll perfected in the 60s, I can always start iTunes and listen to Izzy sing about boxes or something.


Two different things for two different occasions.



CD is like an exotic hamburger that you're not necessarily used to. Many other albums are like your every day burger. You'll know what you get and that you'll like it because you love burgers. 




/jarmo

Dude, not for nothing but music is subjective. Either you like and connect with the music or you dont. Pissing on people for liking Izzy albums isnt cool. I dont piss on anyones musical taste. As far as im concerned to each there own. I like both CD and Izzy albums. Do I consider his albums mindless music? No.

[faldor]

CD might not be some peoples cup of tea because of the type of music it is. Fans of old GNR may not be fans of the new music. Different sound for the most part. I guess it comes from having different members too.

I think many people won't allow themselves to like it.





/jarmo

Largely, because of the different members.  Some people can't get over that fact.  I say enjoy it all, VR, Slash solo, Izzy, Gilby, GNR.  There's plenty of room for all of them.  I've never understood why some people HAVE to love one and hate the rest.  Obviously I have my preference (GNR), but I can appreciate the rest.

[Voodoochild]

I think many people won't allow themselves to like it.

And that's what the thread is about. It's not about why people don't like it at all - of course you can't please everybody. But yes, there is something about the Chinese Democracy project that demands something more than the casual album. Not only about music, but the band too.

[jarmo]

Dude, not for nothing but music is subjective. Either you like and connect with the music or you dont. Pissing on people for liking Izzy albums isnt cool. I dont piss on anyones musical taste. As far as im concerned to each there own. I like both CD and Izzy albums. Do I consider his albums mindless music? No.

Pissing on what exactly?

I got those albums myself.

To me they're the kind of albums that it doesn't take more than a half listen before you've figured out how the album will sound. That's why I used the "mindless" remark.

It's easy to get into and you know what you'll get.

But it's hardly groundbreaking stuff. Maybe the first (Ju Ju Hounds) was groundbreaking because it was his first solo album.... But the latest ones he put out, I wouldn't call them that.



If you had read the full post you would've noticed that I pretty much explained the reason for that remark and it wasn't about the quality of the music, it was about the style. But you chose to ignore it and look for the "Izzy hating" part.



/jarmo

[ppbebe]

music is subjective. sometimes you get it easy and yet you don't like it. sometimes you don't fully get it and you love it.

If you think alot of people don't know it exists, then you can't say the same people dislike it.

The people to hold the lowest opinions of the album are the re-unionists on Gn'R forums who think Steven Adler wrote "Use Your Illusion" and Slash wrote "Appetite For Destruction".

totally.

you can't dislike something you don't know of. you have  no business dissing it.

[peter7411226]

Dude, not for nothing but music is subjective. Either you like and connect with the music or you dont. Pissing on people for liking Izzy albums isnt cool. I dont piss on anyones musical taste. As far as im concerned to each there own. I like both CD and Izzy albums. Do I consider his albums mindless music? No.

Pissing on what exactly?

I got those albums myself.

To me they're the kind of albums that it doesn't take more than a half listen before you've figured out how the album will sound. That's why I used the "mindless" remark.

It's easy to get into and you know what you'll get.

But it's hardly groundbreaking stuff. Maybe the first (Ju Ju Hounds) was groundbreaking because it was his first solo album.... But the latest ones he put out, I wouldn't call them that.



If you had read the full post you would've noticed that I pretty much explained the reason for that remark and it wasn't about the quality of the music, it was about the style. But you chose to ignore it and look for the "Izzy hating" part.



/jarmo

First off I never said you hated Izzy. Second of all how are we supposed to take your statement of saying "If I want to listen to an album that'll open up the more I listen to it and I know I'll enjoy for years, I'll put on CD. If I want some "mindless" rock ' roll perfected in the 60s, I can always start iTunes and listen to Izzy sing about boxes or something"? Thats kind of a harsh way to look at Izzy's work isnt it? Well to each there own. If thats your opinion then fine. Which is kind of my point. To some people Izzys work may be more enjoyable then say CD. Its subjective.

[jarmo]

If you're allowed to say CD is average, why am I not allowed to say that I get bored of Izzy's albums quickly?

The whole point is that some of you prefer listening to Izzy sing about boxes, planes and cars. That's your idea of a 5-star album.

Fair enough.


But then some act like they're the kind of people who could actually enjoy CD so that their opinions should seem more "valid"....

I mean, if you're (not you personally) biased, say so. Stand for it.

Don't act like you're the most open minded person on the planet when the truth is you prefer albums like they've been made since the 60s.




/jarmo

[younggunner]

I'm not placing blame squarely on Axl or the bands shoulders. I cannot imagine why nobody involved wanted to lift a finger to promote it. From Best Buy's "monumental campaign" that never happened, to the label or whomever not getting songs placed in movies, adverts, etc. Who knows. But I firmly believe that had this been promoted correctly by anyone, it would've been massive.

You cannot be serious? How would you have liked to see Best Buy promote it? Without having a music video, any band photos, appearances, etc, how were they supposed to form and execute a monumental campaign?

The blame, for me, pretty much falls on Axl's doorstep.

Everyone and their mom thought that ONCE CD was finally released that the whole proto typical rock campaign would kick off and we would get a nice, consistent, relevant cycle of Guns N Roses which would represent the new chapter of GNR.

The problem Im having is that I cant put my finger on Axl in regards to his goal. I am confused because I always thought that while he was hiding in the hills he was not only attempting to make the best batch of albumS he could possibly make but also be conjuring up his comeback plan. I always assumed that the stop and go stuff would end once CD was released. And when I hear him complain about record labels, managers, etc Im like cmon man you had years to get all your ducks in a row. I know its not that easy but you know what, if you can get a label to give you 12+million, Im sure you can get them to do the other things your way too.

 If he came out and said that hes content with his lifestyle and privacy(although you can still do videos, lil press,etc and maintain your privacy) and that he just will be focusing on making and releasing music every so often then I think he wouldnt get ragged on all the time.

Until he says that, then to me at least, he comes across as lazy and as someone who is stuck in a rut. Hes not quite sure what to do with GNR and or how to move foward. Which is ashame because he has had well over a decade to figuree all of this out.  It just seems to me that he is lost and is having a hard time figuring out what he wants to do. I think its fair to say that because I think he had big plans. Why else would he decide to keep the name and go through all of the lawsuits and negative press that he knew he was going to get when keeping the name and denying a reunion? He obviosuly had some big plans. So to me that is why he just seems lost. And I dont buy the whole "Axl does things on his terms" copout. Musically yes, the integrity is there, but in regards to the other stuff I just see excuses.

I have fully supported Axls decision in regards to the whole new lineup and CD era but it comes a point when you have to ask yourself is all of this worth it? The 2002 lineup was when Axl would have nailed the comeback. He had a band that was as good as the old band and as we found out 6 years later had the album that would back it up. They also had that what the fuck image, which you need in todays market. Buckethead was the perfect answer to Slash. Image and skill wise.

But this whole saga has carried on and amazingly, has never really started. Everything is stop and go and any momentum gained is quickly lossed. Which is why CD has "failed" sales wise and has not caught on.

Musically which is what ultimately counts, Axl hit a grand salami, but whith everything else he has dropped the ball big time. Axl could have had a big time comeback for a decade, released 2-4 albums, tours, become relevant and show that he could do it without Slash. He would have left himself and his legacy untouched.  Unfortunately, he missed that opportunity and any reunion will probably tarnish Axls image even more because it will be percieved as he couldnt do anything without the old lineup, hence him reuniting with the old band.

What is sad is that he could have done both and came out smelling like a rose.

His inability to get himself and this band into the spotlight for any consistent amount of time without and headaches has been one of the main reasons why this album hasnt caught on. He had yrs to get the bs out of the way with the old band yet  months after the album is finally released he is talking about the old band. THat shit should have been taken care of yrs ago. When CD was released(even though it was way too late) Axl and the band should have solely focused ont he album and gnr 2kwhatever.

Axl is the owner,gm,manager,and player of GNR. He wanted that and has it. While I am sure there has been some legit bad luck over the yrs, and things arent as easy as I or we make it out, there is no way anyone can tell me this has been handled properly.

remember people....

when there is a will, there is a way....(scraped..cough cough)

To me they're the kind of albums that it doesn't take more than a half listen before you've figured out how the album will sound. That's why I used the "mindless" remark.

It's easy to get into and you know what you'll get.

Some great albums are easy to get into and know what your getting...and others are the opposite.

there is no formula

[peter7411226]

If you're allowed to say CD is average, why am I not allowed to say that I get bored of Izzy's albums quickly?

The whole point is that some of you prefer listening to Izzy sing about boxes, planes and cars. That's your idea of a 5-star album.

Fair enough.


But then some act like they're the kind of people who could actually enjoy CD so that their opinions should seem more "valid"....

I mean, if you're (not you personally) biased, say so. Stand for it.

Don't act like you're the most open minded person on the planet when the truth is you prefer albums like they've been made since the 60s.




/jarmo

Which is pretty much my point. But there are the bombthrowing criticizers on both sides of the isle on this issue. There are some on this board who piss on the people who like AFD better than CD( labeled as mulletheads stuck in the past). Either way its stupid. People like what they like. Personally im able to enjoy both. I can see where some people dont. My bandmate is more afd than cd. Thats cool with me. He likes other bands that I dont like also. To each there own. Its music. Great music lasts forever. Some people cant fathom the idea that something made 30 or 40 years ago can still be relevant today. I can listen to a song like Kashmir and still be amazed by it. Then again I can hear something from Mastodon today and love it too.

[D]

I can still only wonder how much better CD would've been had Bucket did all the guitar solos.

That is really the only complaint I have about CD. The lack of bonecrushing riffs and the solos go from amazing to good to awful which makes it somewhat uneven.

I would give anything to hear Bucket on Catcher and This I Love for instance. 2 songs where the solo just kinda ruins the song for me.