What is it people fail to understand about Chinese Democracy?

[loretian]

Its not my conception of what GNR should be its that when people say that GNR evolved its not a valid statement. If it were the same band then I would agree with you. Bands evolve. When you have different versions of that band then its different. Radiohead evolved together, the Beatles evolved together. Axl evolved. If the current lineup make another album and it sounds different than cd then we can say that they evolved.

Guns N' Roses evolved as an entity, and the Guns N' Roses entity evolved the sound that it creates.

Happy?

[ppbebe]

Where did I say that the lineup changes is the reason why people dont listen? I mentioned lineup changes when you tried to compare the evolution of the beatles to gnr. Not a very good comparison. Like I said the beatles were the same 4 people who evolved. GNR hasnt been. Then you tried to say the it was a lineup evololution. Now thats something completely different than a musical evolution.

what?


you said to jarmo "The album doesnt sound like the old band. Im not saying if its a good or bad thing. Im just saying that based on that I can see why some people wouldnt like it. And its not even about narrow minded or close mindedness. Either you like a certain type of music or you dont. The new music doesnt sound like the old band."

then you said to voodoo gnr sounds different because of the lineup changes.

you did say that.

i mentioned beatles because even without any lineup change their change was as dramatic as GNRs.

This is why it's pointless trying to figure out what others don't get ...or why they don't like things
None of it will change the way "Sorry" sounds coming thru my speakers

have the bubbles popped up out of the blue out of prostitute out of your speakers yet?

[jarmo]

the main point just is the fact that it took more than 18 years (1991-2008) to release ONE new full lenght studio album under the GN'R banner!
this most likely has never been the case with any other HUGE band like GN'R was in 1992! so even if some other bands like U2 change styles from album to album more than the majority of other big bands did its hard to keep track about the "evolution" of Axl's view of GN'R simply cause there hasnt been any frequent updates, any new releases (exception = OMG) but a faked live album in 1999, dvd re-releases from illusion years and a greatest hits album (2004), wanted or not, thats what came out officially many years later.....and all old band releated!

That makes very little sense to me.

The band changed a bit from AFD to UYI. It wasn't the same exact sound.

There's no My World on AFD for example, nor are there any ten minute songs.



So, because they didn't make a public announcement that the people involved weren't angry 20-somethings anymore, the public shouldn't expect them to change?



To me it sounds exactly like a GN'R album. It's got elements of the past plus more. Which is very natural for a band that evolves and isn't afraid to take chances.





/jarmo

[Limulus]

the main point just is the fact that it took more than 18 years (1991-2008) to release ONE new full lenght studio album under the GN'R banner!
this most likely has never been the case with any other HUGE band like GN'R was in 1992! so even if some other bands like U2 change styles from album to album more than the majority of other big bands did its hard to keep track about the "evolution" of Axl's view of GN'R simply cause there hasnt been any frequent updates, any new releases (exception = OMG) but a faked live album in 1999, dvd re-releases from illusion years and a greatest hits album (2004), wanted or not, thats what came out officially many years later.....and all old band releated!

That makes very little sense to me.

The band changed a bit from AFD to UYI. It wasn't the same exact sound.

There's no My World on AFD for example, nor are there any ten minute songs.



So, because they didn't make a public announcement that the people involved weren't angry 20-somethings anymore, the public shouldn't expect them to change?



To me it sounds exactly like a GN'R album. It's got elements of the past plus more. Which is very natural for a band that evolves and isn't afraid to take chances.





/jarmo

the time issue was the main point in that quoted post, Jarmo, as to be read in the 1st sentence of mine!
18 years for a new studio album under the huge GN'R banner and the main pubic didnt and still doesnt know whats goin on but still getting old band official releases after 1999. 18 years is about one whole generation! thats an significant problem to me.
and RQ is not that short song either, actually pointing into some new direction of illusion era to me.

[younggunner]

There's no My World on AFD for example, nor are there any ten minute songs.

Wasnt NR and Dont Cry written before AFD?

I wouldnt say GNR evolved that much from AFD to the Illusions. They had a bunch of songs already written before and during AFD that ended up on the Illusions.

To me it sounds exactly like a GN'R album. It's got elements of the past plus more. Which is very natural for a band that evolves and isn't afraid to take chances.

Agreed


One of the main reasons why the album hasnt caught on is because Axl waited too long to release it. There were times in the early 2000's where there was some momentum for the band....

By the time he released it the general public had heard enough about Axl and his "comeback" and lost any remaining interest...timing is everything....

[D]

yeah but the UYI's didn't sell like Appetite either so not all fans got on board with those albums either.

I think  a lot of it is the prejudice Voodoo talked about and people not giving it a chance.


I can't tell u how many times I have heard an album and thought "If this were released by someone new or someone else, it would've sold triple what it did.


For example, Prince released two albums in the mid 90s, The Gold Experience and Emancipation that are as good if not better than his stuff in his  80's heydey


they didn't sell hardly for shit because people were finished with him on that level and didn't even give it a chance.


Same for this

if CD were released by one of these flavor of the month bands, it would be dominating.

[younggunner]

I think  a lot of it is the prejudice Voodoo talked about and people not giving it a chance.


I can't tell u how many times I have heard an album and thought "If this were released by someone new or someone else, it would've sold triple what it did.


For example, Prince released two albums in the mid 90s, The Gold Experience and Emancipation that are as good if not better than his stuff in his  80's heydey


they didn't sell hardly for shit because people were finished with him on that level and didn't even give it a chance.


Same for this

if CD were released by one of these flavor of the month bands, it would be dominating.

agreed.

people are lame

but Axl has done some things along the way too that hasnt helped the situation

[jarmo]

the time issue was the main point in that quoted post, Jarmo, as to be read in the 1st sentence of mine!
18 years for a new studio album under the huge GN'R banner and the main pubic didnt and still doesnt know whats goin on but still getting old band official releases after 1999. 18 years is about one whole generation! thats an significant problem to me.

You were talking about how other bands who changed kept people up to date by releasing albums etc. So nobody should've been surprised to see U2 go from a more traditional rock sound into something industrial flavored in four years.


If anything, the time should give people a clue that it might not be the same AFD rock that they released in 1987!

Then people would've really wondered why...

and RQ is not that short song either, actually pointing into some new direction of illusion era to me.

In that case, My World should point you and others in another new direction.





/jarmo

[Limulus]

no, i repeat a 2nd time (as to be seen in my last 2 posts): it about "time issues"!
a whole generation went by from illusion to cd-release. and nobody can twist around that.
then add the other stuff like line-ups, cancelled tours, vma02, delays, hiding allover and old band (re-)releases there is no wonder people asking:

"what happened??"

with the little info over the years people have hard times to follow Axl's evolution musicwise and his view about GN'R.

and yes, i agree "My World" evolutionwise being some form of "missink link" to the next studio song which was OMG.
like RQ its again the last song from an album, huh? so whats "prostitute" leading to? 

[jarmo]

no, i repeat a 2nd time (as to be seen in my last 2 posts): it about "time issues"!
a whole generation went by from illusion to cd-release. and nobody can twist around that.
then add the other stuff like line-ups, cancelled tours, vma02, delays, hiding allover and old band (re-)releases there is no wonder people asking:

"what happened??"

with the little info over the years people have hard times to follow Axl's evolution musicwise and his view about GN'R.

Seriously?


You keep bringing up the the time between albums and lack of info. Then go on to say people don't know what to expect.


So everybody assumes Axl stopped everything in 1991? He knew what he knew until then and that's what he's supposed to use now to make a new album? Write songs only based on experiences from back then etc.?

All the new technology and so on, that has influenced many of the artists who have been around since the 80s, has had no effect on Axl because he didn't make a public announcement about it?


So you're pretty much saying people are too stubborn to realize time has passed?

Considering all those other bands have at least experimented between now and the late 80s. If people expected GN'R to stay the same, that must mean they themselves are frozen in time. And nobody else is allowed to change.



What happened? The world kept turning!


I'm sorry, I just don't buy this "people had no idea that Axl wanted to evolve" theory. It was even reported in the late 90s that Axl was "gonna make a techno album with Moby" and how it was gonna be all "industrial".

Most of the media has made sure everybody knew that Axl was the only original member left. It's often mentioned in GN'R related articles even though it has no relevancy to the article itself. That should be another clue to the people who wonder "what happened". New people in the band might mean there could be a slight change in the band's sound.

In addition to the clues they can find by looking at a calendar where the first two digits of the year doesn't say 19 anymore....




/jarmo

[gilld1]

I don't care who you are but if you disappear for 18 years then more than likely so will a large chunk of your fan base.  I don't care what kind of spin you put on it, that's the truth.

[Voodoochild]

I don't care who you are but if you disappear for 18 years then more than likely so will a large chunk of your fan base.  I don't care what kind of spin you put on it, that's the truth.

Of course. Some of them died.

Seriously, for all those people who lost interest - and I suspect they would eventually anyways because tastes changes and people get older - there's a bunch of new potential fans out there who would accept the new band any time. Take ppbebe as example, who started to love the band after 2004 or so.

Its not my conception of what GNR should be its that when people say that GNR evolved its not a valid statement. If it were the same band then I would agree with you. Bands evolve. When you have different versions of that band then its different. Radiohead evolved together, the Beatles evolved together. Axl evolved. If the current lineup make another album and it sounds different than cd then we can say that they evolved.

So David Bowie never evolved since the people who were with him in the Ziggy Stardust era isn't there anymore?

Remember, it wasn't a suddenly change. First, Dizzy came up. Then we got Paul Tobias. Then there was Robin, and so on...

It's like the whole Chinese Democracy was built in one day. It wasn't! It evolved itself and we all saw it.

There's no My World on AFD for example, nor are there any ten minute songs.

Wasnt NR and Dont Cry written before AFD?

I wouldnt say GNR evolved that much from AFD to the Illusions. They had a bunch of songs already written before and during AFD that ended up on the Illusions.

So is This I Love.

[Limulus]

no, i repeat a 2nd time (as to be seen in my last 2 posts): it about "time issues"!
a whole generation went by from illusion to cd-release. and nobody can twist around that.
then add the other stuff like line-ups, cancelled tours, vma02, delays, hiding allover and old band (re-)releases there is no wonder people asking:

"what happened??"

with the little info over the years people have hard times to follow Axl's evolution musicwise and his view about GN'R.

Seriously?


You keep bringing up the the time between albums and lack of info. Then go on to say people don't know what to expect.

yes, seriously Jarmo, no matter the circumstances the time issue has been a major problem for people following the band under the name GN'R, thats what i've said. this goes not for only for a normal music fan but also for die hards (1995-1999, 2003-2005 anyone?). the combination of lacking info didnt and doesnt help in this.
the following poor assumptions you've just made out of this are absolutely yours not mine:

So everybody assumes Axl stopped everything in 1991? He knew what he knew until then and that's what he's supposed to use now to make a new album? Write songs only based on experiences from back then etc.?

All the new technology and so on, that has influenced many of the artists who have been around since the 80s, has had no effect on Axl because he didn't make a public announcement about it?


So you're pretty much saying people are too stubborn to realize time has passed?

Considering all those other bands have at least experimented between now and the late 80s. If people expected GN'R to stay the same, that must mean they themselves are frozen in time. And nobody else is allowed to change.



What happened? The world kept turning!


I'm sorry, I just don't buy this "people had no idea that Axl wanted to evolve" theory. It was even reported in the late 90s that Axl was "gonna make a techno album with Moby" and how it was gonna be all "industrial".

Most of the media has made sure everybody knew that Axl was the only original member left. It's often mentioned in GN'R related articles even though it has no relevancy to the article itself. That should be another clue to the people who wonder "what happened". New people in the band might mean there could be a slight change in the band's sound.

In addition to the clues they can find by looking at a calendar where the first two digits of the year doesn't say 19 anymore....




/jarmo

[Alfie Bones]

Its not my conception of what GNR should be its that when people say that GNR evolved its not a valid statement. If it were the same band then I would agree with you. Bands evolve. When you have different versions of that band then its different. Radiohead evolved together, the Beatles evolved together. Axl evolved. If the current lineup make another album and it sounds different than cd then we can say that they evolved.

Except that ChiDem has Bucket, Brain and Robin all over it, and they're not in the band anymore. There are still two people in GNR who were there for the UYI tour. Two out of six.

GNR is GNR. It's not a new band, and it didn't start over in 1996. Dizzy Reed was supposed to join in 1986, but he got into a serious car accident and wound up waiting until 1990. He's been in the band for 20 years, which is twice as long as Slash or Duff.

When Izzy quit, he was replaced. When Slash, Tracii's replacement quit, he was replaced. When Sorum, Adler's replacement quit, he was replaced. When McKagan, Ole Beich's replacement quit, he was replaced.

That's the way it goes. GN'R is more than the sum of it's parts.

[peter7411226]

Its not my conception of what GNR should be its that when people say that GNR evolved its not a valid statement. If it were the same band then I would agree with you. Bands evolve. When you have different versions of that band then its different. Radiohead evolved together, the Beatles evolved together. Axl evolved. If the current lineup make another album and it sounds different than cd then we can say that they evolved.

Except that ChiDem has Bucket, Brain and Robin all over it, and they're not in the band anymore. There are still two people in GNR who were there for the UYI tour. Two out of six.

GNR is GNR. It's not a new band, and it didn't start over in 1996. Dizzy Reed was supposed to join in 1986, but he got into a serious car accident and wound up waiting until 1990. He's been in the band for 20 years, which is twice as long as Slash or Duff.

When Izzy quit, he was replaced. When Slash, Tracii's replacement quit, he was replaced. When Sorum, Adler's replacement quit, he was replaced. When McKagan, Ole Beich's replacement quit, he was replaced.

That's the way it goes. GN'R is more than the sum of it's parts.

But you missed my point altogether. Somone made the point comparing the evolution of certain bands and I said GNR was different because they had different members over the years. There music didnt evolve there lineups did.

[peter7411226]

Where did I say that the lineup changes is the reason why people dont listen? I mentioned lineup changes when you tried to compare the evolution of the beatles to gnr. Not a very good comparison. Like I said the beatles were the same 4 people who evolved. GNR hasnt been. Then you tried to say the it was a lineup evololution. Now thats something completely different than a musical evolution.

what?


you said to jarmo "The album doesnt sound like the old band. Im not saying if its a good or bad thing. Im just saying that based on that I can see why some people wouldnt like it. And its not even about narrow minded or close mindedness. Either you like a certain type of music or you dont. The new music doesnt sound like the old band."

then you said to voodoo gnr sounds different because of the lineup changes.

you did say that.

i mentioned beatles because even without any lineup change their change was as dramatic as GNRs.

This is why it's pointless trying to figure out what others don't get ...or why they don't like things
None of it will change the way "Sorry" sounds coming thru my speakers

have the bubbles popped up out of the blue out of prostitute out of your speakers yet?

Ok...in my statement point out where I said that people dont listen because of the lineup change. What I said was that GNR's newer lineups sound nothing like the old ones and Based on peoples musical tastes the newer lineups sound may not be there cup of tea. My point was about music not about lineups. My statement to voodoo is a true one. Of course the music is gonna sound different with a lineup change. Not the same people playing on them.

[jarmo]

yes, seriously Jarmo, no matter the circumstances the time issue has been a major problem for people following the band under the name GN'R, thats what i've said. this goes not for only for a normal music fan but also for die hards (1995-1999, 2003-2005 anyone?). the combination of lacking info didnt and doesnt help in this.

I understand that people could wonder where the band went because they didn't release new albums every three-four years. That happens to many artists who have a few hits, and then either don't follow them up with more hits, or just take a long break.

But I don't agree with your theory that people expected the same sound from the band as they became known for 20+ years ago because they didn't update the public.




/jarmo

[PolarBearWitchHead]

well i dont know if anyone else felt the way i did, but i dont care what style of music they play or who is in the band or how long it takes to release material, but i think the lastest cd is very sterile and watered down.  I doesn't evoke any kind of emotional response in me and that's the only thing i ask for from a record.  maybe that's what others don't get

[peter7411226]

yes, seriously Jarmo, no matter the circumstances the time issue has been a major problem for people following the band under the name GN'R, thats what i've said. this goes not for only for a normal music fan but also for die hards (1995-1999, 2003-2005 anyone?). the combination of lacking info didnt and doesnt help in this.

I understand that people could wonder where the band went because they didn't release new albums every three-four years. That happens to many artists who have a few hits, and then either don't follow them up with more hits, or just take a long break.

But I don't agree with your theory that people expected the same sound from the band as they became known for 20+ years ago because they didn't update the public.




/jarmo

I think when you change your sound theres always a chance your going to alienate a certaing demographic of your fanbase. The punky bluesy music struck a chord with alot of people, myself included which in turn turned me on to GNR. While Ive allowed myself to grow with GNR the new sound may not be alot of people's cup of tea. Its not the same band or really the same type of rock anymore. One of the bands im really into now is Mastodon. There first couple of albums were all Metal. There current one is more Prog Rock than Metal. Its an excellent album in my eyes but alot of the metal fans were alienated by it. I wouldnt say that its because there palets arent suffistocated, its just not there cup of tea.

[The Catcher]

Sadly, the only reason why people can't handle the line-up change and that there is only one original member, is because it's Axl. The extreme bias towards Axl is the reason. If Slash (not that he could) had continued on with the GN'R name alone, I bet a lot of the same people who are criticizing Axl for being the only original member would be ok with that.