What is it people fail to understand about Chinese Democracy?

[suntorytime]

JFYI
Reportedly death magnetic has sold 83,000 black ice 46,000 in Japan. J pop is strong here.

cd 150k, altho it wasn't specially promoted. Music magazines weren't very friendly either.

[oldgunsfan]

the general public didnt want to support axl

With a username like yours, I'd put you on that list. 


well, I bought the album, saw them twice in NYC (last Hammerstein show and MSG show in06) and bought a ticket to the Philly show(02)-what other opportunties to support the band have come up the last 15 years - maybe an additional 4 shows that I didn't go to? 

[jarmo]

Except that AC/DC released a first single that people actually liked.  'Rock N' Roll Train' was played for a solid two months here in Toronto by numerous radio stations.  I still hear it time from time, it's a killer AC/DC track that would have been a classic had it been released thirty years ago. 

People liked it or it was shoved down their throats?

It's AC/DC! Everything they've done in the last decades could've been written by them in the 70s!

 

JFYI
Reportedly death magnetic has sold 83,000 black ice 46,000 in Japan. J pop is strong here.

cd 150k, altho it wasn't specially promoted. Music magazines weren't very friendly either.

That's interesting.

Similar stories from other countries as well. GN'R isn't selling as badly as some want everybody to think.

well, I bought the album, saw them twice in NYC (last Hammerstein show and MSG show in06) and bought a ticket to the Philly show(02)-what other opportunties to support the band have come up the last 15 years - maybe an additional 4 shows that I didn't go to? 

Sorry that "oldgunsfan" doesn't yell "I support GN'R in 2009!" to me.

Maybe it has to do with your posts as well.....






/jarmo

[Eclipsed107]

Maybe it's just not that good.  I mean we all like it, of course, but we're fans of the band.  The reviews have been mixed and no matter how many times the songs were leaked and released they never caught on. 

I mean, yeah, I think it's tremendous, but there are tons of cds out there that I think are tremendous that other people don't like.. maybe most people just don't like Chinese Democracy.

[Cloud]

Well some one proably post a reply like mine but any way
after so many years of waiting after so mutch talk the cd follow up end up as flop ... im 29 years old now and i was just a teen when the use your illusions cds appeared and all the buzze around them it was simple huge the videos that were small movies the productions the sound it was impossible to look away from that ... im now living in the uk but im portuguese and at that time whit out net etc guns reached it and made a lot of old fans so after the release of CD i was expecting someting big some biblic video clips some killing singles not chinese democracy single so we end up having  no videos no interviews no drama to start the news no shows ... i only recently got account on the forum but im use to come here for years for many many years it was my first source of info about guns and i think that after the release of cd things have slowed down instead of hyping etc etc

the guns & roses fans are special kind of ppl and i remember many years ago to irc chats on the pt net and there and ppl argued and fighted but evrebody loved guns this days even my old friends are moving on and only got cd because well i complained to them lol

its almost like it was a sexual act all the trill until the momento of launch and then the turned around and whent to sleep


sorry for typos etc etc its 2.30 am in here and im kind of typsi

any way my typed english always sucks

[ShotgunBlues1978]

Maybe it's just not that good.  I mean we all like it, of course, but we're fans of the band.  The reviews have been mixed and no matter how many times the songs were leaked and released they never caught on. 

I mean, yeah, I think it's tremendous, but there are tons of cds out there that I think are tremendous that other people don't like.. maybe most people just don't like Chinese Democracy.

Black Ice got much worse reviews than CD but sold twice as much

There are ton of albums that "everyone" says suck but sell a lot.  Look at any Nickelback CD for the perfect example.  Total horseshit has sold a lot for many years, whether an album is good or not is usually one of the least important factors as to whether or not it sells

[jarmo]

People also forget the fact that it's "cool" to like certain bands. So obviously they'll sell copies based on that.

It goes up and down.

AC/DC wasn't that cool a few years ago. Classic rock, sure. Cool, not so.

Then comes a time when both the older fans and younger fans (who go by what's cool) like the same band.


In GN'R's case, you got people (even have so called fans) telling everybody who'll listen that the album "isn't as good as Appetite".

Do you think AC/DC's latest one is another Highway To Hell or Back In Black? Hell no.




/jarmo

[oldgunsfan]

well, I bought the album, saw them twice in NYC (last Hammerstein show and MSG show in06) and bought a ticket to the Philly show(02)-what other opportunties to support the band have come up the last 15 years - maybe an additional 4 shows that I didn't go to?  [/quote]

Sorry that "oldgunsfan" doesn't yell "I support GN'R in 2009!" to me.

Maybe it has to do with your posts as well.....

----------------------

dude, i've never posted anything negative about the quality of chinese democracy the album





/jarmo
[/quote]

[jazjme]

for one, not enough people have heard the album

Thats what happens when you don't go all over the place promoting it and doing videos and radio interviews etc and  u put it in a small ass electronic chain.

GNR would've been better served taking a lesser money deal to have it in Target or Walmart. I know that is mostly the record label but still, BB barely have 1000 stores, the promotion was just horrible and lets face it. GNR picked the worst first single imaginable.

we live in a microwave society where everybody wants it "RIGHT NOW"  a 1 minute intro, the verses and chorus are hook free............

I personally don't like "Better" but I think if it had been the first single, things would've went a lot haha BETTER.



Also, I think the album is too epic heavy............ I know for me, had this album came out in 2002 considering how depressed,suicidal and emotional I was back then, I would be on here telling u that CD is greater than Appetite.

Thing is, in 2009 I am in a good place mentally/emotionally and I am a fairly happy person and CD let's face it, is pretty fucking depressing and heavy............

2002 it would've been the greatest album of all time for me, 2009 it is good but I have to be in certain moods to listen to it.

There is some things there I can agree with..

But I feel a bit opposite. I think if you look deep the album is very uplifting, and positive. But I guess its how you listen and read into it. and at the end of Prostitute, it ends tranquil.. as if at peace, its a journey, and unlike a rock opera or such it is perfect.  People will always take what they want from music. But the overall product is amazing. But end of the day regardless what you or I say or think or do doesnt affect the thought process of Axl nor his bandmates, and I think thats what fustrates fans more. Though I think it shouldnt. Its like me being a MEts, and JEts fan... yeah trust me its all the same. lol

cheers!

[Layne Staley's Sunglasses]

There really is no need to bash another band to make a point.

GN'R got beat, time to let it go.

[GypsySoul]

GN'R got beat, time to let it go.

Got beat by who?? 

[ShotgunBlues1978]

People also forget the fact that it's "cool" to like certain bands. So obviously they'll sell copies based on that.

It goes up and down.

AC/DC wasn't that cool a few years ago. Classic rock, sure. Cool, not so.

Then comes a time when both the older fans and younger fans (who go by what's cool) like the same band.


In GN'R's case, you got people (even have so called fans) telling everybody who'll listen that the album "isn't as good as Appetite".

Do you think AC/DC's latest one is another Highway To Hell or Back In Black? Hell no.




/jarmo

No offense Jarmo, but sometimes it feels like I'm talking to a Republican about politics when it comes to our conversations about GNR.  Look, we're all here because we're fans, but that doesn't mean that you can't admit that maybe there's the possibility that AC/DC released a better single to promote their album.  I haven't heard the rest of the album so I can't comment on it, but suffice it to say, if you have GNR fans themselves admitting that Chinese Democracy isn't as good as Appetite, doesn't that speak to the album's worthiness of finding a larger audience?  AC/DC has a back catalog where people aren't as interested in newer material, so for Black Ice to do as well as it did speaks to the connection made by fans and their first single.  GNR has three proper albums of original material, if they want to continue the mantra of being a "mega band" they have to release mega hits.  That's how it works, hit singles sell records.  I enjoyed Chinese Democracy when it came out as did most people around here, but unlike others, and so it seems yourself included, I'm a little more open to the idea that perhaps the material itself wasn't as strong as we had all hoped it would be to dominate global sales charts.  There are many other reasons, but for me, releasing the title track was probably the biggest cause in weaker than expected sales.  Most people listened and said, "if that's what took 15 years to make, I'll pass."  It's too bad for them because they're missing out on a great album, but that's the reality. 

People want and expect what they get from AC/DC.  They don't change their formula because that's what they enjoy doing and that's what the fans want.  GNR on the other hand, not only changed the formula but changed pretty much the entire band.  When people know something for its hits like WTTJ, SCOM, NR, Don't Cry, Paradise City, etc. and the band launches itself renewal with the title track off of Chinese Democracy, it isn't congruent and it's harder to accept for the casual listener and fan.  I'm not in the camp or in any position to tell Axl and co. how to make music; they should produce whatever music that drives them and in that sense I applaud their efforts.  But just because their efforts didn't catch fire with the public at large doesn't mean everyone else but the band is to blame.  Personally, I could have cared less if the album sold two million copies or just two copies its first week.  It has no bearing on my personal enjoyment of the work.  Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case for many of the people here, including the person that started this thread.

Cheers,

Andrew

You bring up good points but like I said, the actual quality of the music is not even close to the most important reason music sells these days

Nickelback's album is still high on the charts in the US while GNR, AC/DC and Metallica are long gone

I can promise you that is not due to the fact that Nickelback's album is better than those bands' albums

[D]

Nickelback don't go away from the formula. They know what their fans like and they keep delivering it over and over and over.

They have easy singles that a broad scope of people can relate to and their songs are familiar. This is why they are consistent but their music has no growth whatsoever.

I hate nickelback with a passion.


The Walmart thing was huge for AC/DC. Walmart gets millions of people in their stores a week to buy clothes, DVD's,Video Games, food, pet food, electrical stuff, toiletries, pharmacy etc etc etc

walking in and seeing a new AC/DC album for 10 bucks and u are already there shopping, impulse buyers are more eager to put it in their shopping cart


nobody really goes into best buy unless they are going to buy a high dollar electronic item and its on a completely opposite side of the store than the CD's plus Best Buy only have 1000 stores if that.

I am not trying to make excuses, lack of appearances, bad first single choice and no video hurt the sales, but I guarantee had it been in Walmart and they had done for GNR what they did for AC/DC, CD would've sold a few hundred thousand more copies.

Think about this:

If you don't get on the internet a lot and you weren't lucky enough to see the handful of Best Buy commercials, how would u even know GNR have a new CD out?

[BlowUpYourVideo]

Another thing is, I think that there are some people out there who think that Axl has been holed up in some studio somewhere obsessing over CD 24/7 ever since The Spaghetti Incident? came out, and as such, expected some flawless masterpiece. Expectations like that are impossible to live up to. And since the album sounds different from the old band, then people probably thought "don't like" and gave up on it.

I don't know exactly when recording of CD started proper but I know that the album hasn't taken as long as 15 years to record.

AC/DC have been consistently popular, they toured throughout the 90s and early 2000s and built up a reputation that wasn't going to go away if they were inactive for a few years. Plus, they have the classic Back In Black lineup and fans know what to expect from them. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. If they're happy playing the same style of music, rather than trying to do other stuff, then they should. Hasn't the point about musicians making the music they want to make been brought up here before??

I can like one band because I know what to expect from them and like another because I don't know what to expect from them.

[downzy56]

Think about this:

If you don't get on the internet a lot and you weren't lucky enough to see the handful of Best Buy commercials, how would u even know GNR have a new CD out?

Really?  I've heard this argument time and time again and am not buying it.  First, Chinese Democracy had 15 years of anticipation, more then any album in that same period.  Second, every major newspaper here in Toronto and Canada had an article on Chinese Democracy and on Axl himself.  Most major publications not only included a review of the album in their music/entertainment section but included full page articles about the band/Axl in other sections of the newspaper.  Third, the single received massive air play for the first two weeks or so.  When I was working at the time as a territorial salesman, I couldn't go thirty minutes without at least three or four stations in the Greater Toronto Area playing the title track.  Fourth, I'm not sure about everywhere else, but here in Toronto there were posters put up everywhere.  You couldn't go a by a single construction site (we have a lot of them in Toronto right now) without seeing vary large posters plastered to walls.  Moreover, the in-store promotion at many retail outlets were pretty outstanding. 

I'll grant that promotion soon dropped off after a couple of weeks, but I would argue that it had more to do with the public not caring.  Chinese Democracy, while not a bad song by an extent, completely underperformed as many were underwhelmed.  With all the expectations on the album by people who were well aware that they hadn't heard new GNR material in a long time, you've got to crush the ball out of the park at your first at bat.  Walmart may have helped a bit, but if there was an appetite for what the public heard, they would have ate it up regardless of who sold it.  Don't forget that US sales now includes iTunes sales as well; so if you really wanted to buy a copy it was available by the largest music retailer in the world. 

Finally, from a personal experience, I had people contacting me the day the album came out who I hadn't spoken to in years who knew that I'm a huge GNR.  Many had no interest in buying the album 'cause they weren't impressed with what they were hearing on the radio.  Many had moved on, but had they heard something that really grabbed their attention I argue they could have been sold on this album.  But as we can clearly see by US sales figures, that didn't happen.

Cheers,

Andrew

[GnR-NOW]

The media has a bias against Axl. The perception is he broke the original band up, he's always depicted as the bad guy. We know that's not entirely true, but its what the media wants people to believe. Think about it. Britney Spears goes crazy, does a lot drugs, it's been reported that she has a sex room in her house, shaved her head, has been under mental watch ... but when she comes back, everyone is like its all good. Axl doesn't do anything, and he's label a recluse and a maniac depressent, how is that fair  And then when he does release an album that is better then all the bullshit being played today, they say theres no catchy single. How about the lyric writing on CD is way better the anything else.

[D]

I can't disagree with your perspective of things, but there are tons of people who have no idea how to use Itunes.

I got tons of family and friends who have never used Itunes in their life.

The fact CD only got to number 5 on the mainstream rock charts was an indictment of how poor a single it was. When Papa Roach and some of these bands hit number 1 consistently, GNR with all the hype and radio behind the first single have no excuse for not hitting number 1.

I think of it like this: If you had to play ONE song off Chinese Democracy, if we took a poll on every single GNR site on the net, I guarantee you, CD the song isn't anywhere near the top 5.

There is a difference in a great song and a great single.

[D]

The media has a bias against Axl. The perception is he broke the original band up, he's always depicted as the bad guy. We know that's not entirely true, but its what the media wants people to believe. Think about it. Britney Spears goes crazy, does a lot drugs, it's been reported that she has a sex room in her house, shaved her head, has been under mental watch ... but when she comes back, everyone is like its all good. Axl doesn't do anything, and he's label a recluse and a maniac depressent, how is that fair  And then when he does release an album that is better then all the bullshit being played today, they say theres no catchy single. How about the lyric writing on CD is way better the anything else.

Yeah but she has a HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE team to work on her image and all sorts of shit to allow that to happen.

Axl could hire a great publicist, and rework his image and do the same but thank God Axl isn't like that. I'd rather Axl be himself and real than put on a front to be popular.

[GnR-NOW]

You're right. Axl isn't into all of the bullshit, but to some people he should be.

[AxlsMainMan]

One idea that I think may have helped would have been to have had 3 singles released around the same time as the release of the album.

U2 did this for How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb; 2 rockers and a ballad, and all 3 songs were quite popular, or at least were here in Canada.

Plus, radio didn't really have the opportunity to play 1 of the singles ad nauseum more than the other two since all three were virtually equally popular.

In Gn'R's case, if they were so insistant on using CD as the first single, they could have also simultaneously released Shackler's Revenge and If The World too since both were already being featured in promotions via Rock Band and Body of Lies.

In doing so, they would have doubled their chances in attracting rock fans, and also would have had a softer single in If The World that would have appealed to multiple demographics.

Better, Scraped and This I Love or Better, Prostitute and This I Love would have been excellent choices to launch right out of the gates too.